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Old 04-03-14, 01:10 PM   #126
echappist 
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Btw, you signed up for ToPC?
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Old 04-03-14, 01:18 PM   #127
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it just got popcorn worthy
Wow that blew up fast.
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Old 04-03-14, 01:18 PM   #128
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Btw, you signed up for ToPC?
Me? I wish I did, actually. I waited too long, and my categories filled up. That weekend I'm headed up north to visit family, and will probably do the crit in Pittsburgh.

I do like one suggestion just posted, that women are allowed to race in men's categories. Maybe a few will try that. In smaller and training races in the NW, this happened all the time, and I see no reason why a cat 3 woman shouldn't fit in a race with cat 4 men.
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Old 04-03-14, 02:00 PM   #129
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Btw, you signed up for ToPC?
If this was for me, yes; 3/4 field.
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Old 04-03-14, 02:02 PM   #130
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Me? I wish I did, actually. I waited too long, and my categories filled up. That weekend I'm headed up north to visit family, and will probably do the crit in Pittsburgh.
or anyone in the thread who's in MABRA
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I do like one suggestion just posted, that women are allowed to race in men's categories. Maybe a few will try that. In smaller and training races in the NW, this happened all the time, and I see no reason why a cat 3 woman shouldn't fit in a race with cat 4 men.
for training races, sure, why not. Nothing is on the line
But some probably wanted to use the race to upgrade, and there's no way even a cat-2 woman would do better than the top 10 men in a cat-4 field.

if the race drew out fewer than 10 racers per year, then i would understand the RD's dilemma. But they had 26 ppl last year, which is one more than the cat 3/4 35+ field and one fewer than the 45+ field.

the 55+ field had 13 ppl last year, yet they felt it was prudent to add a 65+ field for the RR in the place of the women's field? How does that make any sense when the 65+ pay $30 for the RR only ( i was told that RR is a money losing venture), while the women pay $110 for the whole stage race? Of course the 45+ men will now have a full stage race, but i just don't see how you can't accomodate 20 more riders in the ITT and the crit

it almost seem that the RD made the decision not merely upon financial reasons, as i'd bet this would turn away a few men as well.
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Old 04-03-14, 02:22 PM   #131
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Hmm, I thought women were allowed to race in mens category but one category down. I have seen one or two on occasion in our CAT4 field.
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Old 04-03-14, 02:22 PM   #132
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He clearly must have a reason to omit the women's field, but I can't tell what it was. It surely resulted in rage usually reserved for threads about doping. The guy has been a fixture of racing in Mabra for a long time, and the women were quick to turn on him.

My team feels apologetic for only offering one women's or junior field in some races, and we try to do our best to support both, even if our numbers suffer, but we put on several races per year and can handle a low turnout once in a while. I would think the same of this promoter, and you'd think a field of 26 might come close to breaking even. I'd rather not talk numbers without the data in front of me, but have a vague idea of what it takes to make a race profitable in a semi-rural area.
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Old 04-03-14, 03:11 PM   #133
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He clearly must have a reason to omit the women's field, but I can't tell what it was. It surely resulted in rage usually reserved for threads about doping. The guy has been a fixture of racing in Mabra for a long time, and the women were quick to turn on him.
While agree with their indignation, they are treating this a bit too personally. That said, it's hard not to feel personally slighted when you realize your field got replaced by a field turning out even fewer riders.
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My team feels apologetic for only offering one women's or junior field in some races, and we try to do our best to support both, even if our numbers suffer, but we put on several races per year and can handle a low turnout once in a while. I would think the same of this promoter, and you'd think a field of 26 might come close to breaking even. I'd rather not talk numbers without the data in front of me, but have a vague idea of what it takes to make a race profitable in a semi-rural area.
Don't be. It's good that you guys promote the races and try to be inclusive. If prople still want to kvetch, i'd tell them to put the $$$ where their mouth is.

that said, if you could make Lost River standard cat-3 distance (cyrrently short by 3 miles, but doubt tge local officials would care), that'd be great
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Old 04-03-14, 03:55 PM   #134
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there's no way even a cat-2 woman would do better than the top 10 men in a cat-4 field.
That's a stretch. I have two former coworkers who were both cat 2 women, and they would pretty frequently place top-10 in the 35+ open men's Driveway crit, finishing ahead of many 3s and 4s, and a couple 2s
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Old 04-03-14, 05:17 PM   #135
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Hmm, I thought women were allowed to race in mens category but one category down. I have seen one or two on occasion in our CAT4 field.
Yes. And I think 1s can race down 2?
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Old 04-03-14, 05:50 PM   #136
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Yes. And I think 1s can race down 2?
Correct. And women can race in men's Masters categories.
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Old 04-03-14, 06:56 PM   #137
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That's a stretch. I have two former coworkers who were both cat 2 women, and they would pretty frequently place top-10 in the 35+ open men's Driveway crit, finishing ahead of many 3s and 4s, and a couple 2s
We have 2 women who occasionally race our 1/2/(3) training race. They can be an active participant in the early stages, but when we're nearly 2 hours in, and the winning break of 10 goes otf they are not. This is not a macho thing to say, just a fact. A 120 lbs women will struggle when a 175 lbs ex-national champ goes and attacks. The women who race the (3)/4/5 race often can play a very active role in the race.
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Old 04-03-14, 10:42 PM   #138
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We have 2 women who occasionally race our 1/2/(3) training race. They can be an active participant in the early stages, but when we're nearly 2 hours in, and the winning break of 10 goes otf they are not. This is not a macho thing to say, just a fact. A 120 lbs women will struggle when a 175 lbs ex-national champ goes and attacks. The women who race the (3)/4/5 race often can play a very active role in the race.
Different circumstances, lots of variability, but to say "there's no way" has been demonstrated to be untrue.
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Old 04-03-14, 11:54 PM   #139
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Amber Neben kicked my ass at the local TT.
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Old 04-04-14, 04:08 AM   #140
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I know some Cat2 women that would kick Chappy and his fancy loafers all the way back to the Upper West Side.
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Old 04-04-14, 04:15 AM   #141
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The Official Website - USA Cycling

since she came from NYC I figured there might be some insight here, but not much that I see with a cursory glance.

And does Chappy ride? I thought he was the kid talking about shoes with Mikey all the time.
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Old 04-04-14, 05:39 AM   #142
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Different circumstances, lots of variability, but to say "there's no way" has been demonstrated to be untrue.
Damn you for calling out my use of a rhetorical device. Yes, outliers and all that. If you would like to go that route please state how many sigmas Beyond the mean.

That said, given that the race is decided in a time trial, I would agree that a well prepared, Sandbagging cat-2 May just beat a superstrong Cat-4 in a tt as the latter is most likely not going to pay too much attention to position and pacing
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Amber Neben kicked my ass at the local TT.
I am sure she was on hammer endurolytes and steroids when she beat you. Though I have no doubt that Sarah Hammer could probably hammer all of us
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I know some Cat2 women that would kick Chappy and his fancy loafers all the way back to the Upper West Side.
That's Morningside Heights to you. I can't Afford to live on the upper West side

Also, i Don't have fancy loafers like RX. But seriously, It would have to be a sandbagging cat-2 to be at 4.6w/kg.
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The Official Website - USA Cycling

since she came from NYC I figured there might be some insight here, but not much that I see with a cursory glance.

And does Chappy ride? I thought he was the kid talking about shoes with Mikey all the time.
Funny story. I met her the fall before she went to Europe. Had a brief chat And wished her luck. In retrospect, should have told her I also ride on Team Columbia
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Old 04-04-14, 06:39 AM   #143
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Damn you for calling out my use of a rhetorical device. Yes, outliers and all that.
Maybe. Just doesn't seem so outlier when you see it every week, and two of them randomly work for your 200-head defense contractor employer. There are four or five of them in town that do this.

I got dropped in my first Cat 3 race on the first big climb at the Iron Horse race in Durango/Silverton. Pro women started 5 minutes behind us, so the first break caught me. I paced behind Inga Thompson and Rebecca Twigg for a bit, but they dropped me handily. That was the same year that Jeanie Longo showed up for a men's P/1/2 circuit (Meridian) near Denver, and won.
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Old 04-04-14, 06:45 AM   #144
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Maybe. Just doesn't seem so outlier when you see it every week, and two of them randomly work for your 200-head defense contractor employer. There are four or five of them in town that do this.

I got dropped in my first Cat 3 race on the first big climb at the Iron Horse race in Durango/Silverton. Pro women started 5 minutes behind us, so the first break caught me. I paced behind Inga Thompson and Rebecca Twigg for a bit, but they dropped me handily. That was the same year that Jeanie Longo showed up for a men's P/1/2 circuit (Meridian) near Denver, and won.
Of course she was juiced to the gills
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Old 04-04-14, 07:36 AM   #145
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true, and probably more effectively/efficiently than the other dopers in that particular field
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Old 04-04-14, 08:01 AM   #146
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Cat 2 women beating Cat 4 men is probably more the norm than an outlier.

Women generally have a much harder time catting up. First, they generally have to deal with smaller fields, meaning each win results in fewer (sometimes zero) upgrade points. And for a woman to become a cat 2 generally means she has to beat a lot of 1s and 2s, not just 3s, since they have to get their points in women's open events. Around here, there are not many opportunities for 3s to race against 1s and 2s. For the women, it's pretty much standard.

We have a lot of very strong 1 and 2 women around here and they can kick my butt most days.
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Old 04-04-14, 08:48 AM   #147
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Just another Thursday night in Austin last night. (photo credit to awesome Jim Hicks) I couldn't race, but lots of ladies made it out there.


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Old 04-04-14, 01:35 PM   #148
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Over sudden I have a desire to move to Austin.
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Old 04-04-14, 02:17 PM   #149
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Over sudden I have a desire to move to Austin.
The woman in orange/black there in 3rd wheel has dropped my sorry ass on a 17% climb in training.
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Old 04-04-14, 02:20 PM   #150
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Over sudden I have a desire to move to Austin.
good pavement?
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