thechemist

It is quite possible this junior has no idea that he is a danger. He is young and someone saying he is a danger may simply just not register to him. I am with the others in that I would hate to see the pack make right from wrong. Contact the team and hope for the best.

ovoleg

It was dangerous because it was intentional and it was out of the blue. He bounced off cause I weigh at LEAST twice as much as him but if he hit my front wheel it could of been worse. Hell, he wouldn't just take me out, he'd probably take 2-5 guys out that are behind me as well, theres no need for that. It wasn't like he got close then bumped into me, he just came out of nowhere and slammed into me and bounced off.

I'm going to ignore him going forward to the advice of my team and friends. If he tries to dangerously wreck me again he's going to end up riding in the curb.

gsteinb

So what's his motive for intentionally ramming you?

It's generally pretty difficult to ascribe intent. And when higher cat guys point out that contact is commonplace this is (probably) the kind of stuff. Contact happens. When it happens to us we tend to make it larger than it (might) be. We personalize it. That isn't to say intentionally dangerous stuff doesn't happen. It's just not really that common.

Cat four races have sketchy riders. Younger kids tend to be sketchier than older riders. Mainly because they don't have to go to work the next day.

In all probability you weren't particularly cool of mind when you spoke to the kid's father. I know if some guy came over a bit enraged to me about my kid I'd probably blow him off. Whatever addressing of the situation that would happen would be later and well out of another's ability to see or hear.

Ygduf

I say, go talk to his mother!

ovoleg

I was very cool when I was talking to him.

HOWEVER, if someone comes up and is enraged bout your kid and what they did and you instantly take the side of your kid who is inexperienced...wow.

I guess I grew up in a different culture... I would trust the random person that took the time to come up to me and tell me what my son did in a race to endanger others. I would believe them over my son, personally, unless I knew my son was a golden star then I would listen to both sides of the story. But when USAC officials already know about this kid and others in the area know about his dangerous riding, I guess it's always a good policy to just assume they're all wrong

MDcatV

ftw!

rumrunn6

is there an avenue to file an official written complaint so that if it happens again there is a documented history?

carpediemracing 

I've run into this situation at the current races, both from adult racers as well as Juniors/minors.

Keep in mind a few things.

1. Juniors under 16 don't drive. They simply don't understand the implications of various things that we take for granted, like not swerving all over the road.
2. Until you're about 25 you don't feel mortal. I joke that I'm a slow developer because I've only felt mortal recently, but at 20 or 25 it was about how tight of a gap I could squeeze through, not if it was safe to do so.
3. A non-peer (i.e. a dad that isn't in the race and therefore doesn't almost get taken out) can't offer constructive advice to the Junior. It needs to come from a peer.

I've just started putting together the first clip of the year, from last week's race. In it a guy swerves about 3 feet really, really hard, goes over the yellow line, and moves up. Later he swerves around a manhole cover, not even a bad one. In both situations he ends up pretty close to other riders' front wheels, in both situations the other rider doesn't panic, but in a different situation the swerving rider could have easily taken someone out.

I rolled up to the guy after the second incident and told him he needs to watch his line a bit better. He nodded. I could see that he had sweat dripping down his face and it was really cold out - he was working super hard and I think he was falling into that survival mode, where he'll do anything to stay on wheels and such.

I watched him later in the race and he seemed much better. He didn't move unnecessarily. He did move once when the guy to his right moved over but that was normal/expected.

Granted I have some authority at the race since I'm the promoter and the racers tend to be on their best behavior when I'm around. But still, a reasonable tone, reasonable words, and the rider got the message. If I was a jerk about it I think it wouldn't go over as well. Yes, if it was the 2nd or 3rd time maybe it's time to get a bit less polite, but the first time, you can finesse it.

Two of the Juniors did the 4 race. I heard from a reasonably experienced racer that the two were moving around a lot. I wasn't there so I can't comment but it was gusty, the Juniors are tiny, and the wind was even blowing me around. This week I'm going to mention to both of them that it's important to emphasize holding lines in a field, that swerving around stuff isn't necessary, and that it's important to ride predictably in the field. One normally asks me for advice so it won't be unusual for me to offer something. The other has started to get into the groove and I think he'll take it well also.

ovoleg

I need pics before pursuing this option

gsteinb

We're not often as cool as we imagine after a stressful situation.

You're also perhaps overlaying some other cultural thing because I'm not sure it would be considered particularly healthy parenting to assume your kid is always wrong and some stranger is right. You're in the same race. You're both inexperienced. Neither are wellsprings of experience. Ack. And yeah, my kid might be a golden star, and hey maybe it's just me.


In any case you'd be much better off talking to the kid and explaining what he did and how he might handle it better in the future.

carpediemracing 

It's tough. USAC doesn't keep record of suspensions, except I suppose doping ones. However riders suspended for dangerous riding, for assault, etc, have a clean record once the suspension ends.

I proposed that suspensions be exponentially increasing for the same thing, so a rider that takes out someone on purpose might get only 20 days for the first time, 200 days for the second, 2000 days for the third time (of intentionally taking someone out). USAC responded that they don't track suspensions and don't plan to.

However…

I mentioned the rule to the district rep (for the Local Association) as it related to me. The racer in question took out the front part of the field on a Sunday and took me out I think two Tuesdays later. He's also done similar things, where he takes out a bunch of riders on a Saturday or SUnday and then again on Tuesday. The rep admitted that they've had a problem with this rider for many years but no one has been able to do anything about it, the rules are such that he generally gets away with it all. He is known to the officials though, as are other riders. I was surprised at how in tune the rep was with the CT/NY scene (the rep is based in MA and is more known around the MA/RI/NH/VT area).

So write a note to the local association rep. They remember this stuff, even if it's not official. Try to back it up else it's just rumor stuff and that doesn't do any good.

ovoleg

Thanks for the insight.

For the record, I'm alright with sketchy riding, because I expect sketchy riding. What I'm not cool with is intentional dangerous riding and then laughing about it.

himespau 

As a promoter can you make a personal blacklist for your own races independent of what USAC does?

waterrockets 

carpediemracing 

Ah okay. That's different.

This is like when a 13 year old kid punches an adult. The adult is powerless to hit back, in terms of litigation etc. It's a tough situation.

hack

You have several courses of action you can take, some good and some bad. I am just as new to racing as you are, but if I were in your shoes, I'd try the following:

-Talk to the kid, politely, constructively, and preferably before the race. No one wants to be reprimanded, so do it nicely if you want it to stick.

-Before the race when the official is done making his speech and asks if there are any questions...maybe use that brief moment to suggest the pack remains safe, that most of you have to go to work tomorrow, and that intentional physical contact isn't cool given the overall ability of the group.

-If contact happens again in the race, let him know. Verbally, not physically. You have a camera, so if you catch it on camera, show the kid and show the officials.

You'll be racing against this kid and in your community for some time. You don't want to alienate any one by being the guy that took out the junior or the guy that took out the junior and the rest of the field as a result.

gsteinb

Here's the problem:

Even assuming there was intent to crash there's no harm, and really no proof. As I and others have said, in all likelihood you ran across another clueless kid. However, I'd be concerned about this particular mindset. You set up a scenario where whenever you see him you're going to fuel this frame of mind.

So let's extend out. You race against him. He continues to be a sketchy kid and at some point in a moment of frustration you actually intentionally put him into a curb. He gets hurt. The officials ask folks what happened to fill out the accident report. They say 'ovoleg' put him into a curb. Parents press charges. And yeah, maybe the assault charge doesn't actually stick, but the civil suit that follows you is a pain in the ass, and assuming you don't actually have some sort of insurance to cover it you're paying out of pocket for the damages and civil penalties. Not helping your case is the fact that you wrote on an internet forum that you intended to put him into a curb.

Ignoring him at the advice of team and friends actually means ignoring him.

waterrockets 

Anyone else watch Shameless? This would be a good opportunity to enlist Carl's expertise. And lately Bonnie too.

/off topic -- how does this show get so addictive when I know that they're going to make the wrong choices at the worst possible moment?
/two answers: I'm interested in the writers' direction, and sociopathic behavior is what makes good (or just popular) non-gameshow TV these days (Mad Men, Dexter, Breaking Bad, Walking Dead, etc.)

This is true. ITG stuff can be cleansing though, for some.

Fat Boy

I had a Jr. get into me at one point. It should have been no big deal, but the little bugger got his handlebars wedged under mine. I eventually got unhooked from him, but I don't particularly care for racing the squirts...give me a 35+ race any day.

gsteinb

You kids and your new fangled internet words. I have no idea what that means.

carpediemracing 

It's possible, and in fact I was encouraged to ban the rider the took me out back in 2009. I've also been asked to ban riders that transgressed in various ways through the years at Bethel.

For the first rider, the one that took me out, I felt that me banning him would be taken personally and therefore at Bethel he has a clean slate. If he misbehaves there, fine, but I won't ban him for stuff he did at another race.

The other riders, who misbehaved at Bethel, I spoke with one on one. All of them understood what they did wrong, they knew they were being watched, and virtually all of them became model racers, better behaved than the average racer, even at other races. We're talking experienced racers who used to get away with stuff which I then called them on. I would consider some of them to be great patrons of their clubs or group rides.

I have no one on my black list for Bethel.

waterrockets 

Sorry Internet Tough Guy -- talking tough on forums, but not living up (down) to that image.

globecanvas

I thought those kids were fine and actually on pretty good behavior. I saw a lot of them for the first part of the race because they were at the front. When the very first sixcycle break went, one of them asked me if he should chase and I said I wouldn't bother.

Soooo, when you're putting together that video... several times I ended up on the front on the descent after the hill, mostly just because I pedaled around the corner and most people were coasting. I had no particular interest in being at the front so I softpedaled on the inside but a few times nobody would come around, probably because everybody wanted to be on the inside coming into the windy side. Around lap 20 I got frustrated at getting myself stuck out front again and instead pulled off to the outside and put my hands on the tops. If you see that on the video it will look like a terrible move but I promise I was well clear of any wheels when I pulled off.

Obviously putting myself in that position repeatedly was my own fault, and a learning experience, but if you have that move on video, please don't humiliate me

carpediemracing 

Thanks for the feedback on the kids.

As for the video… you may not realize that if I even sniff the front of the field that part goes into the clip. If you watch all my clips I see the front for all of what, like a minute, maybe two, in a dozen or two dozen clips. So, no, I don't have you in view because I was dying at the back for much of the race. All but the last 2 laps.

Also I believe you when you say you were clear when you made the move. You should have seen the guy in the 3-4 race, swerving hard. I'm debating leaving it in or taking it out. The guy knew to ride better because after I said something (quiet, polite) to him he was on 100% better behavior.

Racer Ex 

Put it in writing and get others to do the same or walk away. People moan about all sorts of things every race.


In Norcal there was a bad actor and one guy took it upon himself to lodge a written complaint every time the guy misbehaved and encouraged others to do so, including writing their statements for them. They suspended him and he toned down his act.


No one is going to do anything unless you push them.