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Old 03-29-14, 12:44 PM   #126
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ygduf, I seem to recall about a year ago you taking the advice "always be attacking' (ABA) to heart and pulling the field around for hours for no reason and no result, I think it was some kind of circuit race.
Good find!

Yeah, I took it to heart and tried and tried, but I failed in the most important part: getting the gap.

Definitely an interesting time for me in races! I'm a (little) smarter now, but attacking is a gamble. You can win in a 60-mi solo break, or you can take 46/48 in a crit after you get caught with two laps to go. Guess which one people remember!

08/05/2012 - Patterson Pass Road Race | Road Race | Cat 4
1 / 35 398.99 Chris Evans 321408 210 Peninsula Velo Racing

07/22/2012 - 7th Annual Menlo Park Grand Prix presented by Mike | Criterium | Cat 4
46 / 48 581.62 Chris EVANS 321408 Peninsula Velo Racing

07/21/2012 - Mt Diablo Hill Climb Time Trial | Time Trial | Cat 4
1 / 12 539.92 Chris Evans 321408 0:27:04.4 242 Peninsula Velo Racing

07/08/2012 - Central Coast Circuit Races | Circuit Race | Cat 4
20 / 32 500.64 Chris EVANS 321408 Peninsula Velo Racing
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Old 03-29-14, 12:44 PM   #127
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Ignoring 4 pages of 40+ speeds because the KOM is an anomaly is a little ridiculous. There is a big enough dataset there to prove the point that 40+ sprints are not unusual.
I looked at a dozen or so of those sprints showing segment average speeds of 68+kph (42.5+mph). There were a few where the peak speed touched 40mph. There certainly aren't 4 pages of 40+mph sprints. Whatever Strava is using to calculate those speeds needs some work. But it's great for internet stories...

Here's a typical example of the bugs present in Strava:


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Old 03-29-14, 12:47 PM   #128
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I never said at any level a 35 mph final lap,
not you, no. anyway, don't worry about it. it's not pertinent anyway. The tactic is the tactic regardless of whatever speed.
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Old 03-29-14, 01:16 PM   #129
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I looked at a dozen or so of those sprints showing segment average speeds of 68+kph (42.5+mph). There were a few where the peak speed touched 40mph. There certainly aren't 4 pages of 40+mph sprints. Whatever Strava is using to calculate those speeds needs some work. But it's great for internet stories...

Here's a typical example of the bugs present in Strava:
Ok.

I suppose a more reasonable Internet story is that all collected data is flawed in a way that conveniently supports your argument.

The reality is that in large populations there are large numbers of very fast people.

Jmkami explained perfectly what we were trying to say about leadouts. I'm happy to leave it at that.
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Old 03-29-14, 01:23 PM   #130
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Ok.

I suppose a more reasonable Internet story is that all collected data is flawed in a way that conveniently supports your argument.

The reality is that in large populations there are large numbers of very fast people.

Jmkami explained perfectly what we were trying to say about leadouts. I'm happy to leave it at that.
I don't recall making an argument other than the data you used to support your assertion was suspect.

I agree there are lots of fast people. I think the number of Cat 3's and below winning races at 40+mph is small. Perhaps I live in a smaller area and all the fast guys are in CA but I just don't see many races being won with speeds over 40 here or anywhere else. My guess is less than 1% of Cat 3s can finish off a race at 40+. It that constitutes large numbers then I agree with you.
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Old 03-29-14, 01:26 PM   #131
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I hit 39 sprinting uphill at bethel don't i?
You tell me. Most of the time I'm behind you.
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Old 03-29-14, 01:41 PM   #132
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what the hell is this thread even about anymore?
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Old 03-29-14, 02:16 PM   #133
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Old 03-29-14, 02:17 PM   #134
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Old 03-29-14, 02:44 PM   #135
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what the hell is this thread even about anymore?
whatever the **** I want it to be about.
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Old 03-29-14, 02:46 PM   #136
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You tell me. Most of the time I'm behind you.
oh gees, not even close. I just looked at some files.

I have hit 42/43 though in a sprint other places.
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Old 03-29-14, 04:29 PM   #137
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I was doing close to 40mph on a flat road the other day...







However, that was drafting a large truck. The fastest I've ever sprinted on a flat road without a tailwind was about 37mph, but it's usually closer to 34-35mph.
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Old 03-29-14, 04:35 PM   #138
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Whats really funny are your responses

I know, right?

I mean, I've done elite Nats and NRC races like Athens, Roswell, Anniston, so on and so forth, and even sitting (err...dying) on the pro team leadouts we're not rolling 35mph average lap times, much less 40.

Maybe you can share your experiences in some equally funny posts, though?
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Old 03-29-14, 04:53 PM   #139
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I was doing close to 40mph on a flat road the other day...







However, that was drafting a large truck. The fastest I've ever sprinted on a flat road without a tailwind was about 37mph, but it's usually closer to 34-35mph.
Coming out of a draft at 40 mph on the flats is like riding into a brick wall. It takes some serious power to maintain that speed
for any duration at all.
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Old 03-29-14, 05:47 PM   #140
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I don't recall making an argument other than the data you used to support your assertion was suspect.

I agree there are lots of fast people. I think the number of Cat 3's and below winning races at 40+mph is small. Perhaps I live in a smaller area and all the fast guys are in CA but I just don't see many races being won with speeds over 40 here or anywhere else. My guess is less than 1% of Cat 3s can finish off a race at 40+. It that constitutes large numbers then I agree with you.
I got slaughtered (relative in a field sprint-5th) at 42 mph last year ina cat 3 race in central ohio. Like anything it depends on lots of factors.
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Old 03-29-14, 06:49 PM   #141
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I know, right?

I mean, I've done elite Nats and NRC races like Athens, Roswell, Anniston, so on and so forth, and even sitting (err...dying) on the pro team leadouts we're not rolling 35mph average lap times, much less 40.

Maybe you can share your experiences in some equally funny posts, though?

Im just a cat 4 that is usually off the back, so unless thats a funny post about my experiences I will just continue to lurk.
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Old 03-29-14, 07:28 PM   #142
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Perhaps I live in a smaller area and all the fast guys are in CA but I just don't see many races being won with speeds over 40 here or anywhere else.
You hit the nail on the head. You BC guys may not have sprinting in your DNA, but you do have the best hucking big drops and riding skinnies DNA in the whole world.
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Old 03-29-14, 09:06 PM   #143
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I know, right?

I mean, I've done elite Nats and NRC races like Athens, Roswell, Anniston, so on and so forth, and even sitting (err...dying) on the pro team leadouts we're not rolling 35mph average lap times, much less 40.

Maybe you can share your experiences in some equally funny posts, though?
I think it's great to see some different perspectives in here.

Even if you can't back up your claims with strava lol.

I vote you change your name to freshair.
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Old 03-29-14, 09:25 PM   #144
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I think it's great to see some different perspectives in here.

Even if you can't back up your claims with strava lol.

I vote you change your name to freshair.

you got it backwards. people with the insane claims need the data for backup. and we now accept garmin connect!!
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Old 03-30-14, 12:02 AM   #145
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Granted that there is a lot of helium in the Internet numbers balloons but for perspective:

The most badass folks on the planet do 37mph for 4 minutes indoors on a pursuit bike. That's a fact Jack (Bobridge). Hitting 36 or 37 isn't a huge deal on the track for me and I'm not a wattage machine. At the last NRC race I did (Tulsa Tough) we averaged 32 for 45 minutes, and the 50-54 US 40k record is 30.5.

So I would say if your leadout in an NRC race wasn't even 35 either it was a tight course, you were rolling onto a head wind, or you were still doing you leadout while Sagan was grabbing some girl's butt.

Or you are a women.

In which case Sarah Hammer owns you.

Sarah is very badass.

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Old 03-30-14, 06:30 AM   #146
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Granted that there is a lot of helium in the Internet numbers balloons but for perspective:

The most badass folks on the planet do 37mph for 4 minutes indoors on a pursuit bike. That's a fact Jack (Bobridge). Hitting 36 or 37 isn't a huge deal on the track for me and I'm not a wattage machine. At the last NRC race I did (Tulsa Tough) we averaged 32 for 45 minutes, and the 50-54 US 40k record is 30.5.

So I would say if your leadout in an NRC race wasn't even 35 either it was a tight course, you were rolling onto a head wind, or you were still doing you leadout while Sagan was grabbing some girl's butt.

Or you are a women.

In which case Sarah Hammer owns you.

Sarah is very badass.
And I think that perspective really shows how absurd claims for crit races are for 4s and even 1s,2s, and 3s

A 40+ mile NRC crit isn't anything like a 4k track race. The difference between 32 and 35 is very significant, but the difference between 35 and 40 is stratospheric. And a time trial isn't comparable to a criterium.

And yes about Sarah Hammer.

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Old 03-30-14, 08:09 AM   #147
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Coming out of a draft at 40 mph on the flats is like riding into a brick wall. It takes some serious power to maintain that speed
for any duration at all.
Yep, just the air portion goes 8x power for 2x speed. 200W at 20mph is 1600W at 40mph, plus a little bit for the rolling resistance increase. Can't hold that kind of power for long...
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Old 03-30-14, 09:12 AM   #148
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but the difference between 35 and 40 is stratospheric.
444w vs. 565w if you believe AC.

329 vs. 444 if you have a 1% downhill.

That's chucking in a good position at a bit above sea level.

Like the average speed arguments "over there", and the Strava poachers, tweaking conditions can make people look like Ferrari's clients. Calling BS on someone is a great way to end up looking foolish; There was a midget who used to bet people he could dunk a basketball.

After the bet was made he'd go get a ladder, dunk, and collect his money.

Wouldn't surprise me if some cat 4 sprint ended hit 40. Wouldn't surprise me if the Cuban Missle was a Cat 4 once or that the wind blew one day either.

You already realized that the OP wasn't making stuff up about team and tactic dynamics in the races he does. Don't go double or nothing on the midget.

Now Ewang stuff is a whole different discussion.

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Old 03-30-14, 10:00 AM   #149
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...Don't go double or nothing on the midget.
hey now!
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Old 03-30-14, 12:35 PM   #150
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444w vs. 565w if you believe AC.

329 vs. 444 if you have a 1% downhill.

That's chucking in a good position at a bit above sea level.

Like the average speed arguments "over there", and the Strava poachers, tweaking conditions can make people look like Ferrari's clients. Calling BS on someone is a great way to end up looking foolish; There was a midget who used to bet people he could dunk a basketball.

After the bet was made he'd go get a ladder, dunk, and collect his money.

Wouldn't surprise me if some cat 4 sprint ended hit 40. Wouldn't surprise me if the Cuban Missle was a Cat 4 once or that the wind blew one day either.

You already realized that the OP wasn't making stuff up about team and tactic dynamics in the races he does. Don't go double or nothing on the midget.

Now Ewang stuff is a whole different discussion.
There's got to be more context than that.565w? To hold 40? What, in a vacuum? Drafting a truck? Anyone that's ever used a powermeter know that doesn't even begin to correlate.

People come on here looking for info to race and see these claims and don't know any better and are taken for a ride. And that's just silliness. So if something sounds out of wack, why wouldn't I call bs? 35-40 mph leadouts in amateur ranks is preposterous without some very special (and not common) circumstances. Yet what happens is people start throwing out these numbers without context implying that this is something that can happen any given Sunday.

So, I will call bs on such speeds and wait for the day when 50 becomes today's 40 just like it seems as if today's 40 was yesterday's 35.

Last edited by needmoreair; 03-30-14 at 12:52 PM.
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