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  1. #151
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Analytical Cycling.

    The 444w corresponds to 35 mph for me pretty closely in a clean environment. I can't hold 565 for long enough to get stability so can't comment on the real world, but experience is that they have big brains that are usually pretty close. If you can hold 565w long enough to get a stable speed...ah, never mind.

    I used the input numbers for me that I have found to be accurate, but I am a slippery mofo if three different wind tunnels and the testing facility at HDC is any indicator. Ask around here and you'll stop arguing numbers with me.

    Neither of us have a broad sampling of race conditions and circumstances to tell someone who comes here looking to race the median sprint speed and racing IQ for his local race conditions, correct?

    And who effing cares? I am of the opinion that the median race sprint OTF tactical attack with a lemon twist blather has about as much relevance to whether or not someone should race as the size of my member, in the state of your choosing.

    As a wise person once said:

    "Race specific power"

    And to quote YMCA:

    "Learn how to race your bike"

    The question isn't how fast a lead out should be. The question is how to do a righteous lead out.

    If some one comes here and doesn't race because they read something that made them feel inadequate, they wouldn't make it past their first race anyway.

    Our OP has ben hijacked a bit.

    My suggestion is to change teams and race for me next year

    I will be over with the old farts if someone needs me.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    444w vs. 565w if you believe AC.

    329 vs. 444 if you have a 1% downhill.

    That's chucking in a good position at a bit above sea level.

    Like the average speed arguments "over there", and the Strava poachers, tweaking conditions can make people look like Ferrari's clients. Calling BS on someone is a great way to end up looking foolish; There was a midget who used to bet people he could dunk a basketball.
    Alrighty. Did a Pro/1/2 race today that had a 5 man Cat 1 team lead out over the last mile with a downhill (~-2-3% grade) and no turns coming into the finish... last .4 of a mile we averaged 36.4 and I topped out at just over 40 for a top ten.

    Again, downhill with a Cat 1 team (prolifically winning cat 1 team) leadout. Only the last .4 of a mile was over 35 and top speed was just a nudge over 40. 1100+ watts. 120+ rpm.

    This was a real race.

    So when I'm going out in legit races and seeing these numbers but then coming on the internet and reading about lower categories allegedly doing faster, then I'll take the risk of "looking foolish".

    Let's just keep it really real, for real.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Analytical Cycling.

    The 444w corresponds to 35 mph for me pretty closely in a clean environment. I can't hold 565 for long enough to get stability so can't comment on the real world, but experience is that they have big brains that are usually pretty close. If you can hold 565w long enough to get a stable speed...ah, never mind.

    I used the input numbers for me that I have found to be accurate, but I am a slippery mofo if three different wind tunnels and the testing facility at HDC is any indicator. Ask around here and you'll stop arguing numbers with me.

    Neither of us have a broad sampling of race conditions and circumstances to tell someone who comes here looking to race the median sprint speed and racing IQ for his local race conditions, correct?

    And who effing cares? I am of the opinion that the median race sprint OTF tactical attack with a lemon twist blather has about as much relevance to whether or not someone should race as the size of my member, in the state of your choosing.

    As a wise person once said:

    "Race specific power"

    And to quote YMCA:

    "Learn how to race your bike"

    The question isn't how fast a lead out should be. The question is how to do a righteous lead out.

    If some one comes here and doesn't race because they read something that made them feel inadequate, they wouldn't make it past their first race anyway.

    Our OP has ben hijacked a bit.

    My suggestion is to change teams and race for me next year

    I will be over with the old farts if someone needs me.

    550 doesn't even get me in the ball park of 40. 450 doesn't get me close to 35 either. 450 would put me in the low high 20s, low 30s. I may not be the most aerodynamic person, but I just flat out refuse to believe that anyone is going out on a road bike putting down 500-600 watts and rolling around at 40 mph. Probably because you just never, ever see it.

    I hit 40 today on a downhill at over 900 watts. That was for about 3 seconds. It was very, very fast.

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    So when I'm going out in legit races and seeing these numbers but then coming on the internet and reading about lower categories allegedly doing faster, then I'll take the risk of "looking foolish".

    Let's just keep it really real, for real.
    I think the follow up question to the hijacked thread was ... why don't leadouts work in the Cat 3 races? Not how fast can a sprinter go or how fast is the average cat 3 leadout vs cat 1/2 leadout.

    My response was because Cat 3s can often sprint just as fast as cat 1/2s in part because they have slower, shorter and easier races before hand and at least around here are often full of Cat 1/2 track racers who never do enough races and can't climb to upgrade to a road 1/2. So the only way to correctly lead out your teammate in a cat 3 race is to basically do the same thing as a 1/2 race from 1mile or 1k out, but you can't because you don't have the horsepower to do a proper leadout because those 40 mph sprinters are going to sit on your train and eat your sprinter up unless you do it just right or your team has the track sprinter, who likely didn't need your 4 guys anyways.

    The numbers tossed around were all actual numbers that I have seen in races over the years with one actual race graph shown. I threw out numbers on the higher side of things to show how hard it is to do it right. I have seen leadouts under 30 work, but that is because each race is different and it comes down to who is fast fresh and in the right spot at the right speed to finish a race. On average I would agree that a cat 1/2 race has a much faster overall pace and a much much faster leadout ... because they do a proper leadout. A cat 3 race rarely, IMO, has a proper leadout and even if they get 4 guys to the front at 1k to go, they often get swarmed at the end because they didn't do the proper leadout ... which is not simple as a few people implied before I responded. Proper leadouts are anything but simple.

    Getting caught up on an ideal race speed being faster than your last race was not the point of my responses at least. I also think a number of people have agreed with the top speed numbers of 40ish, and the build up required to get to 40, it is more about how long a cat 3 race can maintain that pace ... which is not very long.

  5. #155
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    My suggestion is to change teams and race for me next year
    I have to admit I've thought of talking to your teammate about it. I've lead him out for the sprint on our Saturday ride more than a few times.

    P.S.

    I hit 40+ twice this week on solo rides. Both times were on -1%/-2% grade. So I'm in right?
    Last edited by agoodale; 03-30-14 at 11:19 PM.

  6. #156
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    I think the follow up question to the hijacked thread was ... why don't leadouts work in the Cat 3 races? Not how fast can a sprinter go or how fast is the average cat 3 leadout vs cat 1/2 leadout...
    Don't bother anymore. It's obvious he hasn't really understood what we've been trying to convey.

  7. #157
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    [COLOR=#a9a9a9]I have to admit I've thought of talking to your teammate about it. I've lead him out for the sprint on our Saturday ride more than a few times.

    P.S.

    I hit 40+ twice this week on solo rides. [/COLOR] Both times were on -1%/-2% grade. So I'm in right?
    Be careful what you ask for.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  8. #158
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    35 mph at 444 watts. Lol.

    At 100 ft elevation, 40% humidity, 65 degrees, 170 lb total weight, 0.0033 Crr, and 95% drive efficiency, one would need to have 0.17 CdA to ride that fast at 444 watts.

    One could do 35 at 444 with a CdA of 0.30 with a 5mph tailwind and -1% grade.


    Is this where the more experienced riders tell me physics is BS?

  9. #159
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    yes, because that's exactly what happened last time.

  10. #160
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    During my intervals I tried hitting 40 mph. Looked down at the Garmin, saw 39.6, went harder and was stuck at that number. Then I realized that was my mileage. fml. My mph wasn't even close
    judging from what you post on here it seems having a powermeter has caused you to focus on ewang numbers without much a focus on developing actual fitness.

  11. #161
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
    During my intervals I tried hitting 40 mph. Looked down at the Garmin, saw 39.6, went harder and was stuck at that number. Then I realized that was my mileage. fml. My mph wasn't even close
    As a 1700W+ sprinter, I haven't hit 40mph solo on a flat windless road since I tried it in Colorado 21 years ago, at 5200ft. 40mph is fast.

  12. #162
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    none of the cat 4 races I've done were below 26+ mph avg speed, the rest of the country must be racing noobs. Also, I haven't won a field sprint here yet, but I doubt anyone is sprinting past 40 mph solo...
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  13. #163
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
    During my intervals I tried hitting 40 mph. Looked down at the Garmin, saw 39.6, went harder and was stuck at that number. Then I realized that was my mileage. fml. My mph wasn't even close
    this is great.

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  14. #164
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    I thought I had done 40 mph sprints, but looked back at all my race data for this year.

    Fastest flat sprint out of casual speed pack: Attack, 1400 watts, 34.6 mph, not windy
    Fastest finishing sprint on flat land: Training crits, ~37 mph, maybe slight tailwind
    Cat 5 winning sprint: Early Bird Crit, under 35 mph, maybe slight headwind

  15. #165
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Bike Ride Profile | Roger Miliken Memorial Crit - Cat4 - 25th/100. Terrible...Road near Brea | Times and Records | Strava

    26.6 mph avg speed, top speed 35.3. I did terrible here but bleh, it was a downhill sprint.

    Bike Ride Profile | Dominguez Hills Crit - Cat 4 - 10/86...Road near Compton | Times and Records | Strava

    26.7 avg speed, top speed 33.6. I think this one has a slight uphill finish.

    But lets just pretend that the cat 4's ride around in circles at 18 mph and then the last lap the leader sprints to 42mph.

    in b4 strava is inaccurate
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  16. #166
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    I sprint to 50.

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  17. #167
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    A few weeks back, Kelly Optum rolled into town and participated in a local crit. One of their sprinters won against a pretty strong field of local guys. Here is his strava file for that day. Culling out the actual race data shows an avg speed of about 27.5 mph and a finishing sprint of 40+...was darned impressive.

    Bike Ride Profile | Land Park Crit near Sacramento | Times and Records | Strava

  18. #168
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    I sprint to 50.
    kph?

    Anyway...I'm going out for a quick little 40 mile ride. I'll be back in an hour.

  19. #169
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    kph?

    Anyway...I'm going out for a quick little 40 mile ride. I'll be back in an hour.

    nautical miles.


    Where do you live, Canada?

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  20. #170
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    35 mph at 444 watts. Lol.
    Think that's funny?

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    At 100 ft elevation, 40% humidity, 65 degrees, 170 lb total weight, 0.0033 Crr, and 95% drive efficiency, one would need to have 0.17 CdA to ride that fast at 444 watts.
    He can look stuff up on the Internet! Check out the brain on Aaron!

    Only I'm 150, have a lower crr, and a slightly better mechanical efficiency, so my "bounce" between .17 and .18 depending on head position yields more speed on the TT rig, and my road position tests out not that far off. And not on paper BTW, because I can actually hold 400+ for a while. If if you want to raise the temp a bit, you'll find that makes a difference as well, not everyone rides at 68 degrees.

    You know that part where I mentioned wind tunnels? Those numbers didn't just get pulled out of thin air. They've been repeated multiple times at different facilities.

    This is why I have all those national medals and a jersey along with all those state jerseys and medals from time trial events, and had a share of the US 45+ team pursuit national record. You can Google foo a nice promo video of me and Ketchell in the COS tunnel. I think he works for some devo team now. Charmin or something like that.

    BTW, I've shared the data files with a few people on the board so you might want to ask yourself if you want to challenge me some more. And if you want the pictures of me on a bunch of podiums with the words "National Championship" behind them, let me know as well. I've probably got more championship medals than you have races BTW. And I've coached people to more than a few as well.

    But hey, y'all think that going out and riding your bike for 30 seconds constitutes a scientific test and it trumps my years of tunnel, field, and race data, I'll just wander off.

    If you want to know what those numbers look like in the real world, here you go:







    Last edited by Racer Ex; 03-31-14 at 06:42 PM.

  21. #171
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    This is depressing - I suck compared to SoCal masters! I hate you all!!

  22. #172
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    no vinyl cover for the valve hole on the trispoke?

    the rock climbing guys have some periscope glasses that let you look 90deg "up"




    legal?

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  23. #173
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    0.01 CdA.

  24. #174
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Think that's funny?



    Exactly correct.

    Only I'm 150, have a lower crr, and a slightly better mechanical efficiency, so my "bounce" between .17 and .18 depending on head position yields that speed. And not on paper BTW, because I can actually hold 400+ for a while.

    You know that part where I mentioned wind tunnels? Those numbers didn't just get pulled out of thin air. They've been repeated multiple times at different facilities.

    This is why I have all those national medals and a jersey along with all those state jerseys and medals from time trial events, and had a share of the US 45+ team pursuit national record. You can Google foo a nice promo video of me and Ketchell in the COS tunnel. I think he works for some devo team now. Charmin or something like that.

    BTW, I've shared the data files with a few people on the board so you might want to ask yourself if you want to challenge me some more. And if you want the pictures of me on a bunch of podiums with the words "National Championship" behind them, let me know as well. I've probably got more championship medals than you have races BTW. And I've coached people to more than a few as well.

    If you want to know what those numbers look like in the real world, here you go:





    Damn. Yes, I did think it was funny, considering all the number inflation around here, and considering mass start races with drop bars. Even so, 0.17 is crazy low!

  25. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    ... and had a share of the US 45+ team pursuit national ...
    All I cared about was this statement. Whew ... I am 44 and very happy to dodge the Racer Ex bullet.

    Any chance I will get a chance to see your slim profile at Master's Track nats in Washington this year? I love watching fast guys who are not in my age group or race, hopefully I could learn a trick or two from you.

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