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  1. #176
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy STi View Post
    This is depressing - I suck compared to SoCal masters! I hate you all!!
    I am pretty sure you don't. I haven't raced against you yet, but I have raced against most of those guys you destroyed twice over this weekend. Either they all had bad days, or you don't suck all that much. You would nicely find a way to figure out some amount of slipstream that racer ex provided and based on his TT results you should be able to out jump him. Just a guess, but I have hopes that most riders can't excel at the TT and the final sprint. So let racer ex be your leadout for the win.

  2. #177
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Here's that video...I didn't want you guys to waste valuable brain cells looking things up.



    I also found a video of Needmoreair and Aaron's aero testing:


  3. #178
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    All I cared about was this statement. Whew ... I am 44 and very happy to dodge the Racer Ex bullet.

    Any chance I will get a chance to see your slim profile at Master's Track nats in Washington this year? I love watching fast guys who are not in my age group or race, hopefully I could learn a trick or two from you.
    I'm hoping. My back is jacked up and I'm having nerve issues as a result right now. Wading through the medical system to try to get it fixed. If all goes well I'll be there...last year in the 50-54 before I have to race against Larry some more.

  4. #179
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    Damn. Yes, I did think it was funny, considering all the number inflation around here, and considering mass start races with drop bars. Even so, 0.17 is crazy low!
    It is. I'm shaped right. In the heat and with the right wheels I can dig around down there on the road bike for a while.

  5. #180
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
    During my intervals I tried hitting 40 mph. Looked down at the Garmin, saw 39.6, went harder and was stuck at that number. Then I realized that was my mileage. fml. My mph wasn't even close
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  6. #181
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Things i love about racer ex:

    i don;t have to race him

    His aeroness is close to 6 times mine...
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  7. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    Don't bother anymore. It's obvious he hasn't really understood what we've been trying to convey.
    Except I specifically addressed that question earlier.

    Are you reading as fast as you're "sprinting"? Might want to slow it down so you can catch all the words.

  8. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post

    Only I'm 150, have a lower crr, and a slightly better mechanical efficiency, so my "bounce" between .17 and .18 depending on head position yields more speed on the TT rig, and my road position tests out not that far off. And not on paper BTW, because I can actually hold 400+ for a while. If if you want to raise the temp a bit, you'll find that makes a difference as well, not everyone rides at 68 degrees.

    You know that part where I mentioned wind tunnels? Those numbers didn't just get pulled out of thin air.

    So your wind tunnel numbers didn't, but the speeds and wattages did?

    Because that's the issue I have; that 35 and 40 mph requires far greater watts what you've postulated. Especially since we're talking about a road bike on a road and not a full-on tt setup in a velodrome or something.

  9. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post


    I also found a video of Needmoreair and Aaron's aero testing:
    You've got to be kidding. Those three wheelers are essentially disk wheels. I do real races. We don't use disk wheels.

  10. #185
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    Things i love about racer ex:

    i don;t have to race him

    His aeroness is close to 6 times mine...
    The "a" in aeroness should be capitalized as that's how he prefer to be addressed by aero-as-brick plebes such as yourself

  11. #186
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    So your wind tunnel numbers didn't, but the speeds and wattages did?

    Because that's the issue I have; that 35 and 40 mph requires far greater watts what you've postulated. Especially since we're talking about a road bike on a road and not a full-on tt setup in a velodrome or something.
    You have more issues than that.

    (hey, you walked into that)

    Postulation is a guess without factual proof. That's not what I posted. What I posted were numbers from engineering formulas based on physics, test data from the"real" world, and from the "test" world. The latter two would be facts, the former a working hypothesis, not a postulation. Some of that on a road bike. On the road. With me on it. Not you.

    You are postulating. You have not done any controlled testing, produced any test parameters, protocol, and formula or other basic hypothetical underpinning to your claim.

    You rode your bike and couldn't do a wheelie. You asked a bunch of Cat 4's to do a wheelie and they couldn't. Same with some Cat 3's. Some guy said he did a wheelie and you cried BS.

    I can still wheelie BTW. I looped out my new Madone in the parking lot before a crit. You'd think at my age I'd stop being a kid.

    Nah.

    You keep letting the midget dunk on you because you fail to grasp the concept of outliers, and have embraced a philosophy that your experience constitutes the totality of reality.

    Your dogma can't hunt.

  12. #187
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    in b4 strava is inaccurate
    too late!

    btw is strava estimating the speed, or just putting up what a gps unit records?

    Quote Originally Posted by hack View Post
    A few weeks back, Kelly Optum rolled into town and participated in a local crit. One of their sprinters won against a pretty strong field of local guys. Here is his strava file for that day. Culling out the actual race data shows an avg speed of about 27.5 mph and a finishing sprint of 40+...was darned impressive.

    Bike Ride Profile | Land Park Crit near Sacramento | Times and Records | Strava
    Damn I only hit 38-something in that final sprint, no wonder I lost to that Optum dude and got 6th!

  13. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    that 35 and 40 mph requires far greater watts what you've postulated. Especially since we're talking about a road bike on a road and not a full-on tt setup in a velodrome or something.
    Actually being a top notch wheel suck on the road, I would disagree there as well. I can be on a fat road bike with lots of spokes, crappy helmet and sitting up while following my 6' 200 pound leadout rider at 36 mph and be putting out less watts than racer ex and his pursuit bike at the same speed. I only have to hold my speed for 200 meters or just over 10 seconds, as does each leadout rider who needs to go over 32mph if done correctly. I would agree that takes lots of watts at the front, but as long as I never see the wind until the final 200 meters, which at my size is pretty easy, I am likely putting out less watts over the final kilo than most. Very rarely do I ever set a wattage PR during a race sprint.

    My preference however is to use some other leadout guy, then yell up up up as loud as I can to get their leadout guy to jump early and usually their sprinter jumps early too. Then I can have my cake and eat it too. Of course I am currently sand bagging in the 3s as I use to be a cat 1 rider 10 years ago, but becoming an old fat dad took a bit out of my legs and I decided to start over again. But it is fun and I look forward to upgrading and racing the 1/2 races again this summer.

    oh, and as we have all said many times, not all or even most races end with a 40 mph sprint, but the ones with good leadouts on flat courses do and not just in the cat 1/2 races.

  14. #189
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You have more issues than that.

    (hey, you walked into that)

    Postulation is a guess without factual proof. That's not what I posted. What I posted were numbers from engineering formulas based on physics, test data from the"real" world, and from the "test" world. The latter two would be facts, the former a working hypothesis, not a postulation. Some of that on a road bike. On the road. With me on it. Not you.

    You are postulating. You have not done any controlled testing, produced any test parameters, protocol, and formula or other basic hypothetical underpinning to your claim.

    You rode your bike and couldn't do a wheelie. You asked a bunch of Cat 4's to do a wheelie and they couldn't. Same with some Cat 3's. Some guy said he did a wheelie and you cried BS.

    I can still wheelie BTW. I looped out my new Madone in the parking lot before a crit. You'd think at my age I'd stop being a kid.

    Nah.

    You keep letting the midget dunk on you because you fail to grasp the concept of outliers, and have embraced a philosophy that your experience constitutes the totality of reality.

    Your dogma can't hunt.
    Exhibit A: he doesn't realize that being a cat-1 is an outlier
    Exhibit B: he doesn't realize that all his sprinting success makes him an outlier compared to the slowtwitchers. Therefore, all cat-4's should sit and sprint it out as opposed to learn how to attack and get in a break that stays away.

  15. #190
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post

    Damn I only hit 38-something in that final sprint, no wonder I lost to that Optum dude and got 6th!
    step it up man. 39 mph could have been a podium

    Between watching Huff take Land Park and Friedman take Chico, it was impressive seeing those guys do what they do so well. I'm new to the game, so I'm still impressed by that

  16. #191
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    I'm glad RX chimed in with the wind-tunnel testing post. I almost posted it for him. It doesn't stop there, he makes his own extensions, pad supports, numerous other bits on his rigs to get results. It's not all intervals and FTP out there.

    Anyone who wants to make at least some aero improvements but doesn't have the time or budget for the tunnel might take a look at this thread, and while you're there, improve on the technique and post up about it there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You keep letting the midget dunk on you because you fail to grasp the concept of outliers, and have embraced a philosophy that your experience constitutes the totality of reality.
    I was very guilty of this for a long time. It was exacerbated by training daily with an outlier who has a nearly identical power profile (which we learned a couple years after starting to ride together). This really skewed my experience and view on everything. I'm over it now though. Mostly.
    Last edited by waterrockets; 04-01-14 at 08:34 AM.

  17. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by hack View Post
    Between watching Huff take Land Park and Friedman take Chico, it was impressive seeing those guys do what they do so well. I'm new to the game, so I'm still impressed by that
    It impresses me even more now that I've been racing a while. Being able to put down that kind of power/speed is just astonishing to me, and it's more so each time I watch them. It made me realize that a rider needs talent just to have a chance at being so strong; training won't let you double your (trained) FTP for example, and you can't just double your (trained) peak power and become a good sprinter. If it were that easy we'd all be pro level riders.

    I don't get to watch the pros very often, whether the Euro level or the domestic ones. I used to make the pilgrimage to Philly for a while and watched Yates win solo among other years, Somerville is pretty amazing, and I got to watch the Worlds in Hamilton. I only started appreciating the speed after I was racing for a few years - the first race I ever watched was the Crit Nationals and the whole experience just overwhelmed me so I didn't walk away with the sensations of extraordinary speed. I simply couldn't relate to it, sort of like watching (in 3rd person) a motorcycle race but never having ridden a motorcycle.

    I'm always amazed at how fast they go, how fast they're turning the big gears. It's just incredible. It's hard to capture that sensation of effortless speed at a local race because no one can go that fast that effortlessly. The few times a rider does that they look like they're riding a motorcycle (and I read about them getting a contract later).
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  18. #193
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    too late!

    btw is strava estimating the speed, or just putting up what a gps unit records?
    for me it matches exactly to what my garmin reads. The interesting part is the guy who won the 1st race had an identical top speed as me lol.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  19. #194
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ovoleg View Post
    for me it matches exactly to what my garmin reads. The interesting part is the guy who won the 1st race had an identical top speed as me lol.
    I believe Strava calculates it's own distance & speeds based on the uploaded GPS data. It ignores the speed & distance from your device's wheel sensor.

    This can obviously introduce inconsistencies based on the quality & quantity of that GPS data. Phone GPS < Garmin GPS, 1s GPS interval > 5s GPS interval, loss of GPS signal, etc...

    So for any segment, especially short ones, there are bound to be outliers in the results.

    On the other hand Strava is a great repository of large amounts of data from multiple riders over many years. So, by looking at the leaderboard (and ignoring the outliers) you can get a general idea of what is possible (given the ideal conditions) for that stretch of road.

  20. #195
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Think that's funny?
    Are you using the bambino now? I'd like to move on from my freebie LG which has a number of annoyances, and I'm temped by the kask, probably because $$$ appeals to my sense of "better." And it looks like a little cute egg.

    twitter.com/ygduf
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  21. #196
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Are you using the bambino now? I'd like to move on from my freebie LG which has a number of annoyances, and I'm temped by the kask, probably because $$$ appeals to my sense of "better." And it looks like a little cute egg.
    Go all in with the POC Tempor.

    Tempor - POC Sports

  22. #197
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    soooo expensive. I'm reasonably certain that with my head position, i'd benefit from one of those kask bambino helmets over my giro since I wouldn't have the tail of a helmet sticking up in the air, but for the 4 or 5 TTs I do in a year, and the bottom 3rd portion of the results sheet I typically reside in, I cant justify plunking down $499 for one.

  23. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You have more issues than that.

    (hey, you walked into that)

    Postulation is a guess without factual proof. That's not what I posted. What I posted were numbers from engineering formulas based on physics, test data from the"real" world, and from the "test" world. The latter two would be facts, the former a working hypothesis, not a postulation. Some of that on a road bike. On the road. With me on it. Not you.

    You are postulating. You have not done any controlled testing, produced any test parameters, protocol, and formula or other basic hypothetical underpinning to your claim.

    You rode your bike and couldn't do a wheelie. You asked a bunch of Cat 4's to do a wheelie and they couldn't. Same with some Cat 3's. Some guy said he did a wheelie and you cried BS.

    I can still wheelie BTW. I looped out my new Madone in the parking lot before a crit. You'd think at my age I'd stop being a kid.

    Nah.

    You keep letting the midget dunk on you because you fail to grasp the concept of outliers, and have embraced a philosophy that your experience constitutes the totality of reality.

    Your dogma can't hunt.
    You said you pulled that wattage data off analytic cycling. Who knows what factors you put in to get those results. But you keep telling yourself how "factual" it all is in the "real" world.

    Oh, right, but you're talking about outliers. Doh! Glad too see you're keeping it relevant.

    But I do enjoy your cliches. You dumped a ton of them in there.

  24. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    Actually being a top notch wheel suck on the road, I would disagree there as well. I can be on a fat road bike with lots of spokes, crappy helmet and sitting up while following my 6' 200 pound leadout rider at 36 mph and be putting out less watts than racer ex and his pursuit bike at the same speed. I only have to hold my speed for 200 meters or just over 10 seconds, as does each leadout rider who needs to go over 32mph if done correctly. I would agree that takes lots of watts at the front, but as long as I never see the wind until the final 200 meters, which at my size is pretty easy, I am likely putting out less watts over the final kilo than most. Very rarely do I ever set a wattage PR during a race sprint.
    We're not talking about drafting. And that's the big issue.

    Can you crank out 440 watts for a couple of minutes? Or at least long enough for you to realize that you're not going to go 35 miles per hour?

    Because I can. And much higher. And I'm not going anywhere near that 35 unless I'm pushing way more.

    That's the point, here, and apparently racer ex is all gung ho on throwing out numbers that are flat out ridiculous for most everyone as if he's somehow proving a point.

    But my point is it's an easily verifiable crock by most anyone else with a power meter. I just don't have a well-oiled cliche to go along with it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    Exhibit A: he doesn't realize that being a cat-1 is an outlier
    Exhibit B: he doesn't realize that all his sprinting success makes him an outlier compared to the slowtwitchers. Therefore, all cat-4's should sit and sprint it out as opposed to learn how to attack and get in a break that stays away.

    You realize you're throwing that in with my posts concerning wholly unrealistic correlations between speed and wattage, right?

    Can you go out and drop 40 mph at 550 watts? No.

    Can I? No.

    Can absolutely anyone I've ever raced with? Not that I've ever seen.

    Can anyone in the history of the world? I don't know, but Cancellara and Sagan and Martin and guys like that aren't doing it, so it's probably not hard to guess which direction I'm leaning.

    And I'm not a "sprinter". I've never cracked 1350 watts in my whole life. And only cracked 1300 once in my whole life. So all of my "sprinting success" wasn't exactly "sprinting success" as one may traditionally define sprinting success. I win only a handful of races a year, and virtually never in a full-on field sprint.

    The point about sitting in and sprinting, though, is that it is consistently possible to do so for placings and if upgrading is a goal, then placings get those points. Like I said, I've gone through the ranks and had lots of friends and teammates that I've watched through the years. To me, it seems like there's a lot of wasted energy and opportunity with these "attacks" and whatnot. But hey, if every race you do ends in a break, by all means go with a break. That's not the case where I race, so disregard if it's not your cup of tea.
    Last edited by needmoreair; 04-01-14 at 03:10 PM.

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