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  1. #201
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Are you using the bambino now? I'd like to move on from my freebie LG which has a number of annoyances, and I'm temped by the kask, probably because $$$ appeals to my sense of "better." And it looks like a little cute egg.
    Do it. The more you pay the better it is and you will feel good about yourself.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

  2. #202
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    ...
    Dude, let it go. The 444/35 number is real, not from AC.com. Toss RX on the track at sea level and test him out.

    I'm seeing a pattern of "I can sprint, so everyone should sprint" and "I can't do it, so nobody can do it." There are other racers besides yourself. Just yesterday, I had a smaller teammate drafting me in a gusty crosswind, pushing 450W while I was cruising along at 350W. Different people are different.

  3. #203
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    I'm a sprinter. I've never broken 1300 watts. FFS what's this thread about

  4. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    Dude, let it go. The 444/35 number is real, not from AC.com. Toss RX on the track at sea level and test him out.

    I'm seeing a pattern of "I can sprint, so everyone should sprint" and "I can't do it, so nobody can do it." There are other racers besides yourself. Just yesterday, I had a smaller teammate drafting me in a gusty crosswind, pushing 450W while I was cruising along at 350W. Different people are different.
    When I have ever said his drag numbers weren't real?

    And he did pull those wattage numbers from ac. Read the post.

    What is there to let go? The numbers are irrelevant for anyone else on this thread.
    Last edited by needmoreair; 04-01-14 at 03:41 PM.

  5. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    There are other racers besides yourself. Just yesterday, I had a smaller teammate drafting me in a gusty crosswind, pushing 450W while I was cruising along at 350W. Different people are different.

    You're right. Here's a guy called Miguel Indurain. He's much different from myself.

    "The cyclist set a world record of 53,040 m, with an estimated average power output of 509.5 W."

    Almost 510 watts for about 32 mph.

    Boardman was around 440 watts for 30 mph.

    Neither of these world class gentlemen's wattage or speed numbers approached what racer ex is throwing around.

    That's what I called into question and that was the point.

  6. #206
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    And let me just reiterate where this tangent came from.

    I said there is a huge difference between riding at 35 and riding at 40 mph. Which there is. Anyone can go out and try to do it.

    To which racer ex pulls out his ac numbers and attempts to correlate some ridiculously low wattages with those ridiculously high speeds.

    Now somehow we have all these "experts" chiming in as if they can verify that some aerodynamic anomaly on a velodrome is in some way applicable to what we were talking about in the first place. That being that it takes some pretty insane power to hold 35 mph, much less 40 mph (we're specifically talking about leadouts. On a road. On a road bike.), and even more ridiculous asserting that it can be done at a piddly wattage that even cat 5s can hold for a minute or two (at nowhere NEAR 35 or 40 mph).

    Hope that clears up what seems to be some confusion.

  7. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    As a 1700W+ sprinter, I haven't hit 40mph solo on a flat windless road since I tried it in Colorado 21 years ago, at 5200ft. 40mph is fast.
    Then what ARE you going on about with regards to racer ex?

    It's like you're not even reading the thread when you make your replies.

  8. #208
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    You're right. Here's a guy called Miguel Indurain. He's much different from myself.

    "The cyclist set a world record of 53,040 m, with an estimated average power output of 509.5 W."

    Almost 510 watts for about 32 mph.

    Boardman was around 440 watts for 30 mph.

    Neither of these world class gentlemen's wattage or speed numbers approached what racer ex is throwing around.

    That's what I called into question and that was the point.
    You may want to fact check before posting that.

    53,040 meters is slightly mpre than 33 miles, not 32 miles.

    Boardman's record is set on a bike with round tubes and with 32H spoke wheels.

  9. #209
    Powered by Borscht ovoleg's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by agoodale View Post
    I believe Strava calculates it's own distance & speeds based on the uploaded GPS data. It ignores the speed & distance from your device's wheel sensor.

    This can obviously introduce inconsistencies based on the quality & quantity of that GPS data. Phone GPS < Garmin GPS, 1s GPS interval > 5s GPS interval, loss of GPS signal, etc...

    So for any segment, especially short ones, there are bound to be outliers in the results.

    On the other hand Strava is a great repository of large amounts of data from multiple riders over many years. So, by looking at the leaderboard (and ignoring the outliers) you can get a general idea of what is possible (given the ideal conditions) for that stretch of road.
    you very well could be right. Usually I glance at the overall number(was it low 40's, low 50's, etc for speed).

    In fact I never actually cared about top speed, as long as I'm going faster than the other guy.
    -Cat-3-o-meter: TBD :/

  10. #210
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    You may want to fact check before posting that.

    53,040 meters is slightly mpre than 33 miles, not 32 miles.

    Boardman's record is set on a bike with round tubes and with 32H spoke wheels.

    Thanks for the correction. 33 is closer to 35 than 32. But it's not 35. And it's certainly not anywhere close to 40.

    Yes, Boardman was on a road bike (though it was on a velodrome) Sorta the point, see? It fits well into this thread about leadouts and such (minus the velodrome bit).

  11. #211
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    Then what ARE you going on about with regards to racer ex?

    It's like you're not even reading the thread when you make your replies.
    I don't have RX's cD, which should be clear.

  12. #212
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I don't have RX's cD, which should be clear.
    Pretty much no one does. That, too, should be clear.

    Why has this turned into something about racer ex? He has nothing to do with anything that isn't related to what he can do.

    You obviously agree that 40 is fast. Do you not also agree that it takes a much more significant amount of power to hold 40 for any length of time? How about 35?

    Do you think anyone else on this forum could go out on a road bike on a road and ride at 35 mph at 440 watts? Do you even think racer ex could? With no tail winds?

    Because Chris Friggin' Boardman couldn't on a velodrome. And it's a disservice to him to even suggest a comparison.

    Come on.

  13. #213
    Senior Member agoodale's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    I'm a sprinter. I've never broken 1300 watts. FFS what's this thread about
    It was about getting bored with teamwork and wanting to race unattached. Along those lines here is an example of when (attemtped) teamwork goes wrong:

    This is the only time I've been upset with a teammate. Cat 3 - 2.5 laps to go in a 55 minute race. It's been a tough race but I've been hiding and waiting for the sprint since it has been obvious for about 40 minutes that a break isn't go to stay away. I know exactly when & where I am going to make my jump. I don't have the raw power of most but I can hold what I have longer so I'm going to jump early and not be too disappointed if I get caught just before the line. As we turn into a strong headwind the field balloons across the road and I ease toward the front about 2-3 riders back.

    A few riders attack and I just watch them go. They're nobody the field needs to be concerned about. They probably won't even last a lap.

    Just then I hear my name yelled behind me. "... Go! ... Go!". I look back and there is a teammate I didn't even know was in the race. Anyway, he's got one of the strongest diesel engines I've ever ridden with. He's solo'd, or made the break, to podiums in big races more than a few times.

    In that split second I decide "what the hell", this guy can hold it for 2 laps. I figure he wants me to bridge and then he'll counter on his own. Fine. I'd be happy helping him and getting the team a win. So I jump and hammer for about 3/4 a lap until we catch the break (which was falling apart anyway). I'm a little spent from the effort but happy and I wait for the teammate to make his attack.

    But instead of going, he gets on the front and tells me "sit on my wheel and recover...". Wait...What!? He gets on the front and sets a pace that's a bit slow for what is now about 1.5 laps to go. We start to get swarmed. I go around him and get back in around 15th wheel. Unfortunately for me a few of the other teams were much more organized and absolutely drilled it.

    Now, If I hadn't just drilled it myself for 3/4 of lap on the front I would have been ok. But I had, and I wasn't. As I felt the race start to slip away from me the stupidity of our move hit me and I mentally just gave up and cruised in for a pack finish.

    I don't think my teammate even finished the race. He went straight to his car and went home. I was racing back to back so I didn't have the time to find him and ask him "WTF?". I haven't seen him since.

    Moral of the story? I don't know. I'ts my fault for listening to him and I assumed I knew what his plans were.
    Last edited by agoodale; 04-01-14 at 04:09 PM.

  14. #214
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post

    Yes, Boardman was on a road bike (though it was on a velodrome) Sorta the point, see? It fits well into this thread about leadouts and such (minus the velodrome bit).
    RX races on a bike with aero tubes and aero wheels. boardman raced on a steel bike with 1-inch tubes and shallow, low spoke count wheels. The helmet Boardman used is closed (no vents), RX could use a better helmet.

  15. #215
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I don't have RX's cD, which should be clear.
    Nobody, including RX, has these Cd numbers during a road race. 565W for 40mph on a mass start legal road bike is ludicrous.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  16. #216
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    RX races on a bike with aero tubes and aero wheels. boardman raced on a steel bike with 1-inch tubes and shallow, low spoke count wheels. The helmet Boardman used is closed (no vents), RX could use a better helmet.
    Aero frames and aero wheels are not going to close a 500+W difference. RX is in a very special time trial position on a special bike with special cloths and a special helmet and special parts he can only use on a closed course in a time trial to achieve these numbers. He can't even sustain 500+W in that position long enough for his speed to stabilize. For all the rest of us on mass start legal road bikes, it's going to take >1500W just to sustain 40mph, much less accelerating to that speed.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  17. #217
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    This...

    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    ...might be related to this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    I'm hoping. My back is jacked up and I'm having nerve issues as a result right now. Wading through the medical system to try to get it fixed. If all goes well I'll be there...last year in the 50-54 before I have to race against Larry some more.
    Applying power with the back that rounded out might be hell on the spine.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  18. #218
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    You obviously agree that 40 is fast. Do you not also agree that it takes a much more significant amount of power to hold 40 for any length of time? How about 35?

    Do you think anyone else on this forum could go out on a road bike on a road and ride at 35 mph at 440 watts? Do you even think racer ex could? With no tail winds?
    You are missing the whole point of the 40 mph comment. The point is this, if you want a successful leadout at any race you need to build speed over the final kilometer, lap or whatever smallish unit of measure works for your group, not any great distance or the whole race. If you fail to build the speed, your leadout sucks and will get ambushed unless you wore everyone out during the race, or your race had no sprinters left, hence the comment of leadouts don't work in cat 3/4 races. In my experience this requires a leadout to go from race pace, lets say 25mph upto 30 at 1km, then using 4 guys build up to around 40ish at the finish, give or take depending on the race. 40 is a good way to ensure your guy wins as many races don't hit 40 for the finish because they are every sprinter for themselves and just a 200 to 500 meter drag race with no decent leadout.

    So I don't understand your fascination that it is too hard to ride near 40, of course it is, that why it is hard and only done for a limited amount of time, 10 to 15 seconds for most. In this case no one is doing this speed for over 15 seconds unless they have a beast on their team. The longest I have seen is 30 to 40 seconds, basically a team pursuiter type guy and a guy who was no cat 3. I am not talking outliers, I am talking about how to do it right and give your team the win in a leadout, and yes even at a lower category race. I would say especially in a lower category race because those races tend to end in a sprint and tend to not be very hard before hand and if there was a sprinter in the race, he is just sitting there. You need to tire him out or keep him out of position with your leadout ... it needs to be fast to work at any cat.

    Racer Ex (much smaller than indurain) tossed his numbers in to show how low of a wattage could be used to do a lead out in perfectly ideal conditions, an outlier, but still likely a fact, but doesn't matter. In reality a good lead requires 4 guys giving everything they got for as long as they can ... likely 600 watts min, but I would prefer something in the 800 range with the last leadout before the sprinter hitting over 1000 watts. That is a tough ask in a cat 3 race, so like most have been saying it is not going to happen, therefor leadouts don't work at the cat 3 level and therefore it is going to be a free for all and that is why your sprinter didn't win even with the 4 guy leadout.

    That said I have both given and received leadouts at the cat 4, 3, 2 and 1 levels on many occasions where the final speed hit 40, most were wins for my team. So it can be done and if it is not done right, then don't wonder why your team got passed.

  19. #219
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    Speaking of rounded back, what's better for aero: round back or flat? Maybe it depends on the rider... Idk. Just wondering because I don't have a wind tunnel at my disposal lol!

  20. #220
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    Speaking of rounded back, what's better for aero: round back or flat? Maybe it depends on the rider... Idk. Just wondering because I don't have a wind tunnel at my disposal lol!
    I think this depends on the rider. As I understand most riders with rounded backs, even Lance, would prefer a flat back. most riders are just not flexible enough to have a flat back, if you can go flat, go flat. Don't bunch up because Racer Ex is a slippery guy.

  21. #221
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    Looking at Racer Ex's pic again, I would not say he is very round, not very flat either, just in the middle with his back. But I would assume he is as flat as he can comfortably be and his position looks pretty fast. The head drop is something I have found gives me two things in a TT. A slight power boost for some reason, as well as a more aero position by lining up the head with the back. I try to do it often.

  22. #222
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Aero frames and aero wheels are not going to close a 500+W difference. RX is in a very special time trial position on a special bike with special cloths and a special helmet and special parts he can only use on a closed course in a time trial to achieve these numbers. He can't even sustain 500+W in that position long enough for his speed to stabilize. For all the rest of us on mass start legal road bikes, it's going to take >1500W just to sustain 40mph, much less accelerating to that speed.
    Iget your point, and part of me thinks RX is semi-trolling him.

    That said, 450 may be a bit too low on a road bike
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    This...



    ...might be related to this:



    Applying power with the back that rounded out might be hell on the spine.
    More like crashing from moto gp and bike racing
    Quote Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
    Looking at Racer Ex's pic again, I would not say he is very round, not very flat either, just in the middle with his back. But I would assume he is as flat as he can comfortably be and his position looks pretty fast. The head drop is something I have found gives me two things in a TT. A slight power boost for some reason, as well as a more aero position by lining up the head with the back. I try to do it often.
    Mosy ppl have tounded backs, even the flexible ones

    wiggo is the only person i can think of having a flat back. Martin seems to have tounded backs

  23. #223
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post

    Come on.
    While I like your vigor, it's best to just object one time everytime CDR posts something that includes a speed in it. They're all either miracle tailwinds, or wheel sensors set to 29ers or something.

    No one believes leadout laps at 35mph, barring some special circumstance or course. I've seeeeeen a guy sprint to 40mph, but it was around a van so really he went from about 39mph to 41mph for all of 10s. I know it's possible but exceedingly rare, even in a race.

    And I know firsthand that if you can go out on a flat road/calm winds and sprint to 32-33mph, you have enough jump to contend in all the cat 3 races I've ever been a part of.

    Anyway, you replied too many times and even though I agree with you, you start to look crazy!

    twitter.com/ygduf
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  24. #224
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
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    replying to this thread:


    twitter.com/ygduf
    strava.com/athletes/ygduf

  25. #225
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Some pics for comparison (photos courtesy of Alex Chiu).

    Pretty flat, but some rounding, yet oh so fast (Zirbel):



    Flat and fast:



    Rounded, but still darn fast:


    edit: lots more for comparison here:
    http://acaurora.smugmug.com/2014-Rac...-River-Road-TT
    Last edited by hack; 04-01-14 at 05:27 PM.

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