Thinking about quitting team and racing unattached...
#51
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This is a pretty basic scenario, but one we see in central TX. 3/4 race, Walburg, TX. Windy as hell -- every year. Exposed rolling hills road race, maybe 40F. Kinda strong guy (maybe 4th strongest 3 in TX) goes, and my teammate goes with him (this was before I joined RX's team). I went and found the other guy, who should have won the race that day. He can't sprint too well, but can diesel like crazy. I got on his wheel and camped. He tried to get across without me a few times, but always called it off b/c he didn't want to get into a 2-on-1 with me, towing a sprinter up. He complains to me, I explain the math to him (he knows already, but we're going through the motions). Anyway, my guy won from the break and this other guy did finally get away, but it was way too late.
#52
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@needmoreair
too much to quote.
Here's my experience. I have a relatively good FTP, extremely poor sprint. Resulting from that, I tend to bias towards RRs, the longer and more "difficult" the course, the better.
Anyway, first half of my 3s races I was doing ok. I had to cover moves myself, or gamble that they'd eventually get brought back. After I started having some success covering moves I became known and marked. Suddenly, any move I went with was dragged back relentlessly. I found myself trying to cover counter after counter after counter. Became very challenging even to place top-10.
Changed from a team where I was alone every race to a team this year where we're putting 4-5 guys in most races. Suddenly, I was allowed to sit in, let my teammates go in breaks up the road, let other guys chase and pull them back, then be the guy to counter. I still can't sprint, but it was a rapid succession of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, etc...
After I had my points, I raced a few races to help my teammate. I was the guy attacking relentlessly, making guys chase me if they wanted to beat me. My teammate, who had never placed higher than like 8th in a 3s race, sat in for the 75-minute circuit, surfed every response to my moves, and took 2nd. Beating a field that was mostly cat-2 in a 2/3 race. Then we did the same thing immediately after and he took 5th in a 3/4 race.
So when I hear you say that team tactics don't matter, etc, I leap to the conclusion that the teams in your area suck. Out here, there will be 4-5 teams with 4-5 guys making up half of any 50-person field, and they all try to work tactics.
too much to quote.
Here's my experience. I have a relatively good FTP, extremely poor sprint. Resulting from that, I tend to bias towards RRs, the longer and more "difficult" the course, the better.
Anyway, first half of my 3s races I was doing ok. I had to cover moves myself, or gamble that they'd eventually get brought back. After I started having some success covering moves I became known and marked. Suddenly, any move I went with was dragged back relentlessly. I found myself trying to cover counter after counter after counter. Became very challenging even to place top-10.
Changed from a team where I was alone every race to a team this year where we're putting 4-5 guys in most races. Suddenly, I was allowed to sit in, let my teammates go in breaks up the road, let other guys chase and pull them back, then be the guy to counter. I still can't sprint, but it was a rapid succession of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, etc...
After I had my points, I raced a few races to help my teammate. I was the guy attacking relentlessly, making guys chase me if they wanted to beat me. My teammate, who had never placed higher than like 8th in a 3s race, sat in for the 75-minute circuit, surfed every response to my moves, and took 2nd. Beating a field that was mostly cat-2 in a 2/3 race. Then we did the same thing immediately after and he took 5th in a 3/4 race.
So when I hear you say that team tactics don't matter, etc, I leap to the conclusion that the teams in your area suck. Out here, there will be 4-5 teams with 4-5 guys making up half of any 50-person field, and they all try to work tactics.
#53
out walking the earth
see here's the problem with this argument...anyone who's proves to be an exception to the rule, is an exception and thus doesn't negate the rule. You're a two now, so clearly you're different.
I feel like I'm stuck in a talk radio program.
I feel like I'm stuck in a talk radio program.
#54
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@needmoreair
too much to quote.
Here's my experience. I have a relatively good FTP, extremely poor sprint. Resulting from that, I tend to bias towards RRs, the longer and more "difficult" the course, the better.
Anyway, first half of my 3s races I was doing ok. I had to cover moves myself, or gamble that they'd eventually get brought back. After I started having some success covering moves I became known and marked. Suddenly, any move I went with was dragged back relentlessly. I found myself trying to cover counter after counter after counter. Became very challenging even to place top-10.
Changed from a team where I was alone every race to a team this year where we're putting 4-5 guys in most races. Suddenly, I was allowed to sit in, let my teammates go in breaks up the road, let other guys chase and pull them back, then be the guy to counter. I still can't sprint, but it was a rapid succession of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, etc...
After I had my points, I raced a few races to help my teammate. I was the guy attacking relentlessly, making guys chase me if they wanted to beat me. My teammate, who had never placed higher than like 8th in a 3s race, sat in for the 75-minute circuit, surfed every response to my moves, and took 2nd. Beating a field that was mostly cat-2 in a 2/3 race. Then we did the same thing immediately after and he took 5th in a 3/4 race.
So when I hear you say that team tactics don't matter, etc, I leap to the conclusion that the teams in your area suck. Out here, there will be 4-5 teams with 4-5 guys making up half of any 50-person field, and they all try to work tactics.
too much to quote.
Here's my experience. I have a relatively good FTP, extremely poor sprint. Resulting from that, I tend to bias towards RRs, the longer and more "difficult" the course, the better.
Anyway, first half of my 3s races I was doing ok. I had to cover moves myself, or gamble that they'd eventually get brought back. After I started having some success covering moves I became known and marked. Suddenly, any move I went with was dragged back relentlessly. I found myself trying to cover counter after counter after counter. Became very challenging even to place top-10.
Changed from a team where I was alone every race to a team this year where we're putting 4-5 guys in most races. Suddenly, I was allowed to sit in, let my teammates go in breaks up the road, let other guys chase and pull them back, then be the guy to counter. I still can't sprint, but it was a rapid succession of 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 3rd, etc...
After I had my points, I raced a few races to help my teammate. I was the guy attacking relentlessly, making guys chase me if they wanted to beat me. My teammate, who had never placed higher than like 8th in a 3s race, sat in for the 75-minute circuit, surfed every response to my moves, and took 2nd. Beating a field that was mostly cat-2 in a 2/3 race. Then we did the same thing immediately after and he took 5th in a 3/4 race.
So when I hear you say that team tactics don't matter, etc, I leap to the conclusion that the teams in your area suck. Out here, there will be 4-5 teams with 4-5 guys making up half of any 50-person field, and they all try to work tactics.
#55
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I'm contending that if the rule as proposed is to "always sit in, be conservative, wait for the sprint" in order to get points, that's a bad rule in that there are more exceptions than not. That's the point. I'm an exception to the rule and I think most people are. Also, there's teamwork in the 3s around here.
Also, makes for super lame racing.
#56
out walking the earth
I don't see prior responses to you, so I don't know exactly what you're saying.
I'm contending that if the rule as proposed is to "always sit in, be conservative, wait for the sprint" in order to get points, that's a bad rule in that there are more exceptions than not. That's the point. I'm an exception to the rule and I think most people are. Also, there's teamwork in the 3s around here.
Also, makes for super lame racing.
I'm contending that if the rule as proposed is to "always sit in, be conservative, wait for the sprint" in order to get points, that's a bad rule in that there are more exceptions than not. That's the point. I'm an exception to the rule and I think most people are. Also, there's teamwork in the 3s around here.
Also, makes for super lame racing.
#58
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I'm saying there's no way to win an argument with the guy who's putting it forth because everyone who says anything that disproves the basic premise he offered is an exception and clearly not relevant. As a two, you can't disapprove tactics at the cat 3 level, because clearly you should have been a two. Rather than what's more realistic what allowed you to become a two was learning to race tactically so you could highlight situations where you could get points.
Ahh, that is clearer thank you.
I'll just back away and imagine all the c3 races in the southeast rolling along at 18mph until the final 200m.
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I would quit the team in spectacular fashion.
next race, when doing the pre-race strategy pow wow, look extra aloof. I think the best aloof look is one foot clipped in, sitting on top tube, leaning over with forearms on the tops of my handlebars and kind of rocking back & forth. while the tactics are being discussed, take off your eyewear and stare at the ground in front of you, and be sure to not say a word or show facial expression. when discussion is over, put eyewear back on and just say "**** this **** man, you guys blow, i'm outta here" then go to your car, put on a different jersey, line up and race for yourself.
next race, when doing the pre-race strategy pow wow, look extra aloof. I think the best aloof look is one foot clipped in, sitting on top tube, leaning over with forearms on the tops of my handlebars and kind of rocking back & forth. while the tactics are being discussed, take off your eyewear and stare at the ground in front of you, and be sure to not say a word or show facial expression. when discussion is over, put eyewear back on and just say "**** this **** man, you guys blow, i'm outta here" then go to your car, put on a different jersey, line up and race for yourself.
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If you were unattached, and then saw a team of 4 or 5 in a race that were doing things you liked, and then sat in on their moves/leadouts, how would that play out? Would they be mad? Would they not care since you're unattached? Would they invite you to join the team?
#62
out walking the earth
- GA paraphrase
#63
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Can you give an actual example?
What are your teammates doing that's so sophisticated and benefiting you so much?
Because here's the thing about high-level tactics in my experience: they require some pretty bad-ass riders because putting the most effective tactics into play takes some pretty strong dudes. And those strong dudes don't typically stick around the 3s long enough to ever pull together in a team effort.
So I'm quite curious to hear about it and how these riders are pulling it together so much at such an amateur level.
What are your teammates doing that's so sophisticated and benefiting you so much?
Because here's the thing about high-level tactics in my experience: they require some pretty bad-ass riders because putting the most effective tactics into play takes some pretty strong dudes. And those strong dudes don't typically stick around the 3s long enough to ever pull together in a team effort.
So I'm quite curious to hear about it and how these riders are pulling it together so much at such an amateur level.
As it happened, despite several attempts, it just wasn't possible on that day to get a break to stick, it came down to the final mile-long hill climb and I didn't have the legs for that finish. But the teamwork was there.
It doesn't happen often at this level, no, but it's definitely possible from time to time. I will add, too, that this is one example where the tactics didn't involve raw power, but smart riding and ability to read moods in the field. FWIW from my experience racing in the Southeast, even in 1/2 or 1/2/3 races around there the tactics aren't usually all that sophisticated, there's lots of attacking and hard riding, the goal is mostly to make sure the team is represented in the eventual break. I've almost never seen an amateur team at any level pull off a true sprint leadout. I've definitely been at team sprint practices where (say) some Cat 4 on the team is all "let's practice a leadout!" and yeah... there's definitely some temptation to laugh at that point. A team of riders who can organize a successful sprint leadout in Cat 4 is a team that is collectively so strong they won't be 4s for very long anyway.
#65
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I would quit the team in spectacular fashion.
next race, when doing the pre-race strategy pow wow, look extra aloof. I think the best aloof look is one foot clipped in, sitting on top tube, leaning over with forearms on the tops of my handlebars and kind of rocking back & forth. while the tactics are being discussed, take off your eyewear and stare at the ground in front of you, and be sure to not say a word or show facial expression. when discussion is over, put eyewear back on and just say "**** this **** man, you guys blow, i'm outta here" then go to your car, put on a different jersey, line up and race for yourself.
next race, when doing the pre-race strategy pow wow, look extra aloof. I think the best aloof look is one foot clipped in, sitting on top tube, leaning over with forearms on the tops of my handlebars and kind of rocking back & forth. while the tactics are being discussed, take off your eyewear and stare at the ground in front of you, and be sure to not say a word or show facial expression. when discussion is over, put eyewear back on and just say "**** this **** man, you guys blow, i'm outta here" then go to your car, put on a different jersey, line up and race for yourself.
#66
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#67
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I would quit the team in spectacular fashion.
next race, when doing the pre-race strategy pow wow, look extra aloof. I think the best aloof look is one foot clipped in, sitting on top tube, leaning over with forearms on the tops of my handlebars and kind of rocking back & forth. while the tactics are being discussed, take off your eyewear and stare at the ground in front of you, and be sure to not say a word or show facial expression. when discussion is over, put eyewear back on and just say "**** this **** man, you guys blow, i'm outta here" then go to your car, put on a different jersey, line up and race for yourself.
next race, when doing the pre-race strategy pow wow, look extra aloof. I think the best aloof look is one foot clipped in, sitting on top tube, leaning over with forearms on the tops of my handlebars and kind of rocking back & forth. while the tactics are being discussed, take off your eyewear and stare at the ground in front of you, and be sure to not say a word or show facial expression. when discussion is over, put eyewear back on and just say "**** this **** man, you guys blow, i'm outta here" then go to your car, put on a different jersey, line up and race for yourself.
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"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
#68
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But since we're now talking about teamwork & tactics we've seen....
One example of what got me thinking happened at a recent Crit. We had our best man up the road in a 3 man break with riders from 2 of the "dominant" teams. Coming down to the last 3 laps it was near certain they would stay away. At that point an attack went with a strong man from a small (in that field) team. Another rider latched on. I was near the front covering at that point for our team.
If I were on my own I would have jumped for that move. But instead I hesitated to watch what the other teams would do. The move had a slim but real chance of bridging. It someone from my team went then the other 2 teams would most likely react as well. At that point the whole field would react and we'd all be closer to the break. Everyone else decided to let them go also. They didn't bridge but they stayed away to finish 4th & 5th. I would have been more than happy to finish 6th.
#69
out walking the earth
not sure I follow you assessment. text book, for a guy with a teammate up the road, would be to latch on and sit third wheel. if they tow you up great. if not, they're neutralized and back in the field.
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But since we're now talking about teamwork & tactics we've seen....
One example of what got me thinking happened at a recent Crit. We had our best man up the road in a 3 man break with riders from 2 of the "dominant" teams. Coming down to the last 3 laps it was near certain they would stay away. At that point an attack went with a strong man from a small (in that field) team. Another rider latched on. I was near the front covering at that point for our team.
If I were on my own I would have jumped for that move. But instead I hesitated to watch what the other teams would do. The move had a slim but real chance of bridging. It someone from my team went then the other 2 teams would most likely react as well. At that point the whole field would react and we'd all be closer to the break. Everyone else decided to let them go also. They didn't bridge but they stayed away to finish 4th & 5th. I would have been more than happy to finish 6th.
One example of what got me thinking happened at a recent Crit. We had our best man up the road in a 3 man break with riders from 2 of the "dominant" teams. Coming down to the last 3 laps it was near certain they would stay away. At that point an attack went with a strong man from a small (in that field) team. Another rider latched on. I was near the front covering at that point for our team.
If I were on my own I would have jumped for that move. But instead I hesitated to watch what the other teams would do. The move had a slim but real chance of bridging. It someone from my team went then the other 2 teams would most likely react as well. At that point the whole field would react and we'd all be closer to the break. Everyone else decided to let them go also. They didn't bridge but they stayed away to finish 4th & 5th. I would have been more than happy to finish 6th.
#71
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We had our best man up the road in a 3 man break with riders from 2 of the "dominant" teams. Coming down to the last 3 laps it was near certain they would stay away. At that point an attack went with a strong man from a small (in that field) team. Another rider latched on. I was near the front covering at that point for our team.
If I were on my own I would have jumped for that move. But instead I hesitated to watch what the other teams would do. The move had a slim but real chance of bridging. It someone from my team went then the other 2 teams would most likely react as well. At that point the whole field would react and we'd all be closer to the break. Everyone else decided to let them go also. They didn't bridge but they stayed away to finish 4th & 5th. I would have been more than happy to finish 6th.
If I were on my own I would have jumped for that move. But instead I hesitated to watch what the other teams would do. The move had a slim but real chance of bridging. It someone from my team went then the other 2 teams would most likely react as well. At that point the whole field would react and we'd all be closer to the break. Everyone else decided to let them go also. They didn't bridge but they stayed away to finish 4th & 5th. I would have been more than happy to finish 6th.
My rule when covering for a teammate in the break, is first follow everything, don't hesitate, that is your job. 90% of the time just me getting on their wheel makes them stop and this slows the group even more. You don't want more people to join the break and lessen your guys chance to win from 1 in 3 to 1 in 5. Plus if you don't like the guys moving up, just sit on them. You have no need to work and get a free ride to the break or they don't like that and sit up and the group catches them and slows down even further. regardless the break either stays, or gets caught, but you are the fresh one who sits on. Now you can counter and create more chaos or prep your team to setup for a sprint.
That said, I have done the same thing and left bigger teams to rider smaller so that I didn't have to worry about all that team stuff. I think it just goes in cycles and that sometimes it is good to go on your own for a bit, but overall I have had more fun when being a part of a team than when being solo. Enjoy your time solo, but keep talking to your old teammates as well as new guys and see if you can find a better fit for the following year, maybe an old teammate will follow you to the new team as well.
#72
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I should add that it was a known risk letting them go. As mentioned above there was a possibility of reducing the chances of my teammate from 1 in 3 to 1 in 5. But in weighing those chances against the chances of a reaction getting the field closer to the break, everyone chose to let them go.
Last edited by agoodale; 03-28-14 at 12:31 PM.
#73
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Question along those lines. From what I've seen, there always seems to be some point where the next guy to attack and try to bridge somehow brings life into the whole field and suddenly everyone is chasing hard. I have trouble figuring out when that point is. Agoodale says if he went at that point, so everyone would chase. Is there reason to believe he was wrong about this? Maybe... in reality everyone would chase only to shut down the bridge attempt and then sit up again? Just wondering.
Second thing: Leadouts were brought up a few times in this thread, and how they don't work in lower categories. Why is this? It seems to me that a leadout train would be one of the more simple things. It seems like you just have to go very hard, pull off, next guy repeats, etc. Can someone with more experience explain what makes this more complicated than it seems?
Second thing: Leadouts were brought up a few times in this thread, and how they don't work in lower categories. Why is this? It seems to me that a leadout train would be one of the more simple things. It seems like you just have to go very hard, pull off, next guy repeats, etc. Can someone with more experience explain what makes this more complicated than it seems?
#74
Senior Member
Question along those lines. From what I've seen, there always seems to be some point where the next guy to attack and try to bridge somehow brings life into the whole field and suddenly everyone is chasing hard. I have trouble figuring out when that point is. Agoodale says if he went at that point, so everyone would chase.
#75
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Question along those lines. From what I've seen, there always seems to be some point where the next guy to attack and try to bridge somehow brings life into the whole field and suddenly everyone is chasing hard. I have trouble figuring out when that point is. Agoodale says if he went at that point, so everyone would chase. Is there reason to believe he was wrong about this? Maybe... in reality everyone would chase only to shut down the bridge attempt and then sit up again? Just wondering.
Second thing: Leadouts were brought up a few times in this thread, and how they don't work in lower categories. Why is this? It seems to me that a leadout train would be one of the more simple things. It seems like you just have to go very hard, pull off, next guy repeats, etc. Can someone with more experience explain what makes this more complicated than it seems?
Second thing: Leadouts were brought up a few times in this thread, and how they don't work in lower categories. Why is this? It seems to me that a leadout train would be one of the more simple things. It seems like you just have to go very hard, pull off, next guy repeats, etc. Can someone with more experience explain what makes this more complicated than it seems?
1: when I feel there is a chance the group up the road could stay away. depends on conditions, legs I know, legs I am worried about, and number of dudes up there vs. who is back where I am.
2: it's just hard to get guys in the 3-4-5s who have raced together long enough and have close enough fitness levels and profiles for it to work. it's one of those easier-said-than-done items.