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Old 04-11-14, 08:43 AM   #26
cannondale125
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Not to make light of it, but A. ALL crashes are needless. B1. this is America. No one owns a 10-year-old bike anymore. B2. You can get anything shipped overnight. C. Use Bag Balm on that road rash. And D. That guy is probably blaming you for the crash, so I doubt he learned from his error.




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Old 04-11-14, 08:48 AM   #27
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It seems odd that you fell down to the left, because you were making a right turn. Unless your front wheel got hit at such an angle where your bars went left?
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Old 04-11-14, 08:52 AM   #28
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It seems odd that you fell down to the left, because you were making a right turn. Unless your front wheel got hit at such an angle where your bars went left?
If the guy pushed the left handlebar (or arm) with enough force it would steer the wheel to the right and he would fall on the left (high-siding the rider/bike); although the camera angles don't directly show the contact, that's what i'm inferring.

Seems like the rider that hit the OP was anticipating a tighter turn by the OP (I've seen this and experienced this before...fortunately no crashes resulted since I allowed for more room or corrected with enough time).
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Old 04-11-14, 08:52 AM   #29
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I had my elbows out, but he was slightly ahead of me and hit my handlebars with his forearm.

He had plenty of room to take a safe line, but didn't purely out of negligence.
Handlebars, understood. That's a critical part of your control center if you will, front wheel and bars. Question is were you ready for the impact? Although the other rider initiated contact it's also on you to be prepared for contact. For example say (theoretically) someone squeezed that outside rider into you? Same situation, slightly different cause. Would you have been able to save yourself?

Not trying to be a jerk, it's just that it looks like you weren't as aware of what was going on as well, or at least prepared to react if it did happen, especially after that first guy went flying across your front wheel.

Also I would take offense with the phrase "purely out of negligence". You can definitely say that the guy was too close to you. It's not right to give the reason the guy turned too close, you just don't know.

Basically to me it looks like a normal race situation that resulted in one surprised rider hitting the deck. I'm sorry that you hit the deck but you haven't convinced me that the other guy was entirely at fault or malicious etc.

On the other hand I've had very sly, very experienced riders do similar moves to me. Although they seemed sort of clueless when it happened the amount of lateral movement and some of their body language indicated to me that they did it intentionally. Plus the fact that they've been actively racing for 30+ seasons, some at Olympic levels, means they know how to pretend to be clueless. I usually let them have the spot, but I file away the incident so that I'm not surprised if they pull something like that again. When I see them do it to other people then I figure I should watch out for those moves when it gets more dicey.
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Old 04-11-14, 08:56 AM   #30
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Handlebars, understood. That's a critical part of your control center if you will, front wheel and bars. Question is were you ready for the impact? Although the other rider initiated contact it's also on you to be prepared for contact. For example say (theoretically) someone squeezed that outside rider into you? Same situation, slightly different cause. Would you have been able to save yourself?
this also has me thinking about target fixation. did the OP see the rider and look at the rider on the left make contact? if so, that could cause the OP to veer slightly left as he fixated on the target (going where you look) as opposed to if the OP didn't see the rider passing. it happens a lot in races when people look back or look at a crash that is happening. also, any motorcyclist should also know what i'm talking about as this is a very common occurrence that takes practice to properly overcome or even be aware of as it's happening.

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Old 04-11-14, 09:07 AM   #31
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I was one of the front 5 riders virtually the entire race, and there wasn't much I could do to be positioned better.
If you're strong enough to be up there the whole race then I'd practice moving around in the field. Drift back to the back or even start at the back. Move up without going up the sides. Go into a corner where you can't see the front of the field because of all the riders in front of you, and have riders on both sides of you. Play games. In one race I was hanging out at the back and after the bell the guy next to me said something like, "I guess you're not contesting this race?" I replied that I'd try to make a miracle happen. I got 2nd. I didn't go sprinting up the side because I can't do that and still sprint. I had to move up decisively within the field and get into position in about half a mile without killing myself so that I could contest the sprint. You can play that game too, even if it's not intentional sometimes.

One of the things that prompted the clinic petition is that there are some extremely strong riders that can get up to Cat 3 or Cat 2 without learning the appropriate bike handling skills for those categories. In fact I'd consider myself an adequate Cat 2 bike handler - Cat 3s is fine, Cat 2s I back off in certain situations or I leave subtle openings that I don't realize are there until someone pops through it.

Sitting in the top 5 for most of any race requires incredible strength, no matter what you read here on BF or wherever (some of the guys posting here are phenoms and simply don't represent the regular people racing bikes). Therefore you have incredible fitness and strength and at some level you have some good talent. Hell, I wish I had a better FTP but it just isn't happening. If I'm near the front of a race (5th-10th wheel) for more than a couple minutes I'm totally cooked. Use your strength and talent to help learn race craft so that you feel comfortable following wheels instead of letting them go, so that you automatically protect the side where some guy just blasted by you (because others will follow), etc. Then when you've upgraded into the categories where pure strength doesn't give you anything (because everyone is really strong) you'll have your race craft in reserve.
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Old 04-11-14, 09:13 AM   #32
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Handlebars, understood. That's a critical part of your control center if you will, front wheel and bars. Question is were you ready for the impact? Although the other rider initiated contact it's also on you to be prepared for contact. For example say (theoretically) someone squeezed that outside rider into you? Same situation, slightly different cause. Would you have been able to save yourself?

Not trying to be a jerk, it's just that it looks like you weren't as aware of what was going on as well, or at least prepared to react if it did happen, especially after that first guy went flying across your front wheel.

Also I would take offense with the phrase "purely out of negligence". You can definitely say that the guy was too close to you. It's not right to give the reason the guy turned too close, you just don't know.

Basically to me it looks like a normal race situation that resulted in one surprised rider hitting the deck. I'm sorry that you hit the deck but you haven't convinced me that the other guy was entirely at fault or malicious etc.

On the other hand I've had very sly, very experienced riders do similar moves to me. Although they seemed sort of clueless when it happened the amount of lateral movement and some of their body language indicated to me that they did it intentionally. Plus the fact that they've been actively racing for 30+ seasons, some at Olympic levels, means they know how to pretend to be clueless. I usually let them have the spot, but I file away the incident so that I'm not surprised if they pull something like that again. When I see them do it to other people then I figure I should watch out for those moves when it gets more dicey.
I've had people squeeze through in a tight pack with no issues. I called it negligence rather than maliciousness because I believe it was accidental. The rider came up to me afterwards to apologize and admit fault. He was fixated on holding the wheel of the rider who passed in front of me, and when the front rider slid to the right, the guy adjusted his line to the right without accounting for me being there. Several riders came up to me later and told me he was riding in inattentively in many of the corners. I was aware of his presence, but he definitely changed his line.
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Old 04-11-14, 09:15 AM   #33
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what category is this?
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Old 04-11-14, 09:24 AM   #34
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I've had people squeeze through in a tight pack with no issues. I called it negligence rather than maliciousness because I believe it was accidental. The rider came up to me afterwards to apologize and admit fault. He was fixated on holding the wheel of the rider who passed in front of me, and when the front rider slid to the right, the guy adjusted his line to the right without accounting for me being there. Several riders came up to me later and told me he was riding in inattentively in many of the corners. I was aware of his presence, but he definitely changed his line.
Got it. One of the things that the video doesn't illustrate is the rider on the outside in other situations. Nor you, of course, but him either. It's hard to go on the short views front and back.

I'd agree that someone that moves over hard enough to make contact into another racer without paying attention is being careless or negligent.
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Old 04-11-14, 09:27 AM   #35
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CDR, the guy is clearly very strong, he was moving at 30mph on what seemed to be a pretty flat surface and putting out a lot of power. Not sure why he wasn't drafting off of someone because that level of pace is unsustainable. I'm not a fan of being boxed in and I'm sure the OP feels the same way, but it's nice to have people around you moving in the same lines, and keeping a steady position may be easier for some in that situation.
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Old 04-11-14, 09:31 AM   #36
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Crashing sucks. Hope you get it sorted and healed up quickly.
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Old 04-11-14, 09:33 AM   #37
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What cat were you racing in?
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Old 04-11-14, 09:34 AM   #38
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I cant tell from the video what happened, so I'm not going to try to diagnose, but I think it's worthwhile to do a self analysis whenever something goes wrong in an effort to improve. What could you have done differently, there's usually something, so use it as a learning opportunity, and focus on improvement. Good luck on your recovery and getting back out there.
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Old 04-11-14, 09:42 AM   #39
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I have nothing to race and train on for at least a week, and it'll take longer than that for the road rash to clear up.
Road rash - There's a thread at the top of the 33 forum if you haven't checked it out already. When I hit the deck at just about the same speed (28 mph?) I had no road rash left after less than 5 days. Crashed Tues evening, Sunday during the day I was clear, raced Monday (Memorial Day).

No pictures of wounds but pictures of what to get. Easy to care for, straightforward, quick healing time.
Sprinter della Casa: How To - Road Rash Care

If you have scabs then it's a bit late but if your wounds are still wet then Tegaderm is great. Get what you need locally then get a big box from Amazon. It's about $4-5 per 4"x4-3/4" sheet at the local store, it's $30 for a box of 50 of those same sheets. I have Tegaderm in reserve, in the 11 yard long roll, just in case. Well worth it if anyone I know hits the deck.
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Old 04-11-14, 09:59 AM   #40
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If you're strong enough to be up there the whole race then I'd practice moving around in the field. Drift back to the back or even start at the back. Move up without going up the sides. Go into a corner where you can't see the front of the field because of all the riders in front of you, and have riders on both sides of you. Play games. In one race I was hanging out at the back and after the bell the guy next to me said something like, "I guess you're not contesting this race?" I replied that I'd try to make a miracle happen. I got 2nd. I didn't go sprinting up the side because I can't do that and still sprint. I had to move up decisively within the field and get into position in about half a mile without killing myself so that I could contest the sprint. You can play that game too, even if it's not intentional sometimes.

One of the things that prompted the clinic petition is that there are some extremely strong riders that can get up to Cat 3 or Cat 2 without learning the appropriate bike handling skills for those categories. In fact I'd consider myself an adequate Cat 2 bike handler - Cat 3s is fine, Cat 2s I back off in certain situations or I leave subtle openings that I don't realize are there until someone pops through it.

Sitting in the top 5 for most of any race requires incredible strength, no matter what you read here on BF or wherever (some of the guys posting here are phenoms and simply don't represent the regular people racing bikes). Therefore you have incredible fitness and strength and at some level you have some good talent. Hell, I wish I had a better FTP but it just isn't happening. If I'm near the front of a race (5th-10th wheel) for more than a couple minutes I'm totally cooked. Use your strength and talent to help learn race craft so that you feel comfortable following wheels instead of letting them go, so that you automatically protect the side where some guy just blasted by you (because others will follow), etc. Then when you've upgraded into the categories where pure strength doesn't give you anything (because everyone is really strong) you'll have your race craft in reserve.
I think I've read your advice about practicing moving around in the pack in your blog or another forum post. I've done this in a couple races, and definitely plan on more in the future. This was a Cat 4/5 race in the local series. I was at the front marking my top 3 contenders in the series, and trying to get in a breakaway with the right composition to stay away. I definitely have more leg strength than race experience. In the Prologue TT for the series, I beat everyone including the Cat 1/2/3 field. Maybe with a bit more experience I would have instinctively tightened my turn in the moment I had to react when he changed his line, but I'm not there yet.

Anyway, this crash has reinvigorated me to train harder and race smarter. I greatly appreciate the advice in these forums, and I guess I just needed to vent a little.
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Old 04-11-14, 10:01 AM   #41
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went 19 years since my last crash, then went down last season when a guy sprawled right in front of me and I had nowhere to go -- I still blame myself 100% for not having the fitness or tactics to be up at the front of the race. My crash was my fault.
silly you, brining logic and personal responsibility into this thread.

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What is trashed about the frame? 7800 is better than what a lot of racers have. If it works, use it.
You too.

Seriously, if someone thinks that da7800 isn't any good, then they clearly need to learn a thing or two about bikes (and cornering).
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Old 04-11-14, 10:04 AM   #42
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I think I've read your advice about practicing moving around in the pack in your blog or another forum post. I've done this in a couple races, and definitely plan on more in the future. This was a Cat 4/5 race in the local series. I was at the front marking my top 3 contenders in the series, and trying to get in a breakaway with the right composition to stay away. I definitely have more leg strength than race experience. In the Prologue TT for the series, I beat everyone including the Cat 1/2/3 field. Maybe with a bit more experience I would have instinctively tightened my turn in the moment I had to react when he changed his line, but I'm not there yet.

Anyway, this crash has reinvigorated me to train harder and race smarter. I greatly appreciate the advice in these forums, and I guess I just needed to vent a little.

Wow. That was cat 4/5 running 30 mph?
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Old 04-11-14, 10:05 AM   #43
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Tough call. As always, I'll preface this with a I'm still very new to racing and riding in general really. With that, it seemed to be a collective lack of awareness and prepardness. It looked like there was a good amount of space wherein if you were bumped you had room to recover. Not assigning blame on any individual, but one thing we're told here locally just before the whistle blow is "protect yourself and your bars at all times". I figure it is racing and I need to be prepared for the unexpected and be able to respond accordingly to keep myself upright. I keep a video on hand anytime I think my bike handling skills are "adequate" that I'll watch to remind myself that I have a loooong way to go with skills and comfort. There is quite a bit of contact, line changes, shuffling, etc.


#t=265

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Old 04-11-14, 10:05 AM   #44
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Road rash - There's a thread at the top of the 33 forum if you haven't checked it out already. When I hit the deck at just about the same speed (28 mph?) I had no road rash left after less than 5 days. Crashed Tues evening, Sunday during the day I was clear, raced Monday (Memorial Day).

No pictures of wounds but pictures of what to get. Easy to care for, straightforward, quick healing time.
Sprinter della Casa: How To - Road Rash Care

If you have scabs then it's a bit late but if your wounds are still wet then Tegaderm is great. Get what you need locally then get a big box from Amazon. It's about $4-5 per 4"x4-3/4" sheet at the local store, it's $30 for a box of 50 of those same sheets. I have Tegaderm in reserve, in the 11 yard long roll, just in case. Well worth it if anyone I know hits the deck.
I had read you blog post on Road Rash previously, and it was the first thing I looked at when I went shopping for first aid stuff. They didn't have Tegaderm at the store, but the hurt free antiseptic is amazing. I found some non-stick bandages that are working for the time being.
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Old 04-11-14, 10:06 AM   #45
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I think I've read your advice about practicing moving around in the pack in your blog or another forum post. I've done this in a couple races, and definitely plan on more in the future. This was a Cat 4/5 race in the local series. I was at the front marking my top 3 contenders in the series, and trying to get in a breakaway with the right composition to stay away. I definitely have more leg strength than race experience. In the Prologue TT for the series, I beat everyone including the Cat 1/2/3 field. Maybe with a bit more experience I would have instinctively tightened my turn in the moment I had to react when he changed his line, but I'm not there yet.

Anyway, this crash has reinvigorated me to train harder and race smarter. I greatly appreciate the advice in these forums, and I guess I just needed to vent a little.
ah, so yeah, definitely your fault
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Old 04-11-14, 10:28 AM   #46
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The video was all one needed to see to know it was a 4/5 race (gaps between riders, positions on bikes, etc).
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Old 04-11-14, 10:29 AM   #47
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This crash was operator error.
And a hard way to learn the craft.
The other rider may have been taking a bad line, but this situation is pretty normal and no big deal as you go up the categories.
Heal up and get your club to work those drills.
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Old 04-11-14, 10:39 AM   #48
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I think I've read your advice about practicing moving around in the pack in your blog or another forum post. I've done this in a couple races, and definitely plan on more in the future. This was a Cat 4/5 race in the local series. I was at the front marking my top 3 contenders in the series, and trying to get in a breakaway with the right composition to stay away. I definitely have more leg strength than race experience. In the Prologue TT for the series, I beat everyone including the Cat 1/2/3 field. Maybe with a bit more experience I would have instinctively tightened my turn in the moment I had to react when he changed his line, but I'm not there yet.

Anyway, this crash has reinvigorated me to train harder and race smarter. I greatly appreciate the advice in these forums, and I guess I just needed to vent a little.
Okay so obviously you have a strong motor there. And venting is fine, you just have to brace for the feedback.

Also it makes sense to mark the others around you in the standings. Playing around in the field wouldn't make sense for this particular race.

Overall you sound fine - no head injury, no broken bones, so you're not going to lose much fitness per se. Your bike, okay, frame and some parts get written off, but when you get back on a bike no one can take away your power/talent.

You also show a level of self awareness etc that I think is commendable. A lot of riders would have been extremely defensive but you took the feedback in stride, at least from what I can see.

If you learn the race craft part pretty quickly I figure we'll be reading about you next year in Velonews. Work on the close quarters stuff a bit, mix it up intentionally, and you'll be good.
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Old 04-11-14, 10:44 AM   #49
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Seriously, if someone thinks that da7800 isn't any good, then they clearly need to learn a thing or two about bikes (and cornering).
I loved my DA 7800, but despite everything my LBS has tried, it wouldn't shift well under load to the 12 and 11 tooth. I actually ordered a new bike as soon as I walked back to the start/finish line. I have a 2014 Felt AR 4 with Ultegra 11 speed on the way.
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Old 04-11-14, 10:46 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by Inquisitor. View Post
I loved my DA 7800, but despite everything my LBS has tried, it wouldn't shift well under load to the 12 and 11 tooth. I actually ordered a new bike as soon as I walked back to the start/finish line. I have a 2014 Felt AR 4 with Ultegra 11 speed on the way.
how the heck did you do that?

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