bbbean 

Capsule history: Very healthy and active in my teens and 20s - rock climber, mountain biker, worked as a guide for a few years. Then I spent 25 years as a beer swilling couch potato, and at the ripe old age of 47 weighted over 300 lbs and was on the verge of serious health issues. 2 1/2 yrs ago lost 150 lbs, bought a bike, started riding. This year, at the age of 50, I've started racing.

The question is, when I evaluate how far I've come and try to set realistic goals, what yardstick should I use? Compared to my performance a year ago, I'm flying. Compared to the younger cat 5s and cat 4s, I'm the slow old guy who's doing all he can to hold on for a 30 minute crit.

Ygduf

Regardless of age you're going to see year-to-year improvements for 5-7-8 years to come. Mitochondrial density, capillary function, and oxidative enzymes are real things that can't be faked (without drugs).

The only measure of progress you really need to be concerned about is the calendar. How were you 6 months ago? 1 month ago? Last week? Yesterday? Today? Tomorrow? Next Week/Month/Year. Watch the trend, adjust, tweak.

And congrats on the weight loss. I am 100lbs down from my biggest, and it's still a daily struggle. Riding and moreso competing definitely provide motivation to stay on the wagon and be as fit as I can be.

gsteinb

Yard stick: Are you having fun and are you healthier than you were as a fat middle aged guy?

YMCA

Bike racing is about winning. That should be your yardstick. Even the pack fodder have a chance. Don't settle. Otherwise it's just riding around.

furiousferret

Just pat yourself on the back because it seems like you've earned it. Losing that weight is a big accomplishment.

I'm not 100% sure what you are asking, but it seems like you are happy with your accomplishments but frustrated with race results. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm in the same boat as you but about 10 years younger. There are really two things to judge your cycling performance by; power and efficiency. Power being how much you train, your performance gains either measured in power or perceived exertion. Efficiency is how well you race via drafting, cornering, staying up front, etc. You can compensate for having a lot less power than the younger guys by knowing how to race.

My first two races I was weak and inefficient, and ended up near the back. I got really frustrated and hired a coach to help me out with things. He taught me how to be much more efficient and how to race well with less power. This last race I was more efficient and for the first time was an actual threat in a race, even with my mediocre power.

So you have to ask yourself where the flaw is and work on it. Also, shouldn't you be doing Masters, or are you still in the 5's?

This mainly though.

happybday29475

I was at 250lbs when I started cycling.

I agree with the other comments made, but would add a couple o things:

1. consider traveling for a weekend of racing to where there are masters' categories. Colorado, for example. You may get crushed, since we get to race every weekend, but at least you'll get crushed by peers. And, with a bit of experience racing with masters, you'll soon be the crusher of others who are now in your situation. In any case you'll get to compare yourself with peers.

2. My experience racing with seniors is:
- they recover more quickly, so they have advantages in both racing and training..it will take you longer to become competitive than it would for a younger newbie, and also after efforts it'll be longer before you can go again ('waki pitch)
- though it will take a master more training to get to a w/kg level than it would a senior, the levels, at the longer durations, are not too different.
- short, ie neuromuscular, efforts, decline more with age than ftp type efforts. Youngsters' races at a given level are not significantly faster than masters at the same level, but the sprints are.

aside: one of my favorite, personally relevant, and most inspirational weight loss threads...it's old and in a mountain biking context. Lots of great before and after stories, where sedentary folks morphed into incredible athletes.
100 Pounds lost; cycling passion & weight loss

gsteinb

Sorry, let me change my answer.

HTFU…if you're not winning, you're losing.

bbbean 

I'm just trying to get a handle on how to set realistic goals. Prior to racing, I could look at my speed and endurance, see improvement, and I knew I was doing well. My only yardstick was my own performance, and it's fairly easy to set goals: metric century, 40k goal times, hilly routes, etc. When I was riding on club rides, I didn't have any problem riding with the faster riders, and could leave the pack behind on hills. Now that I'm racing against packs of trained 25-40 yr olds, It's a little harder to see the progress. Granted, I'm still VERY green (1 big crit, 1 road race, and a couple of weekly training crits), but just making middle of the pack in cat 4 looks a loong way off.

That sums up where I'm getting killed in the weekly crits. I'm leaving folks behind on the flat, in the descent, and on the turns, but they're killing me on the hill, and after 8 or 10 laps, it's hard to buy enough time on the flat to make up for it. In essence, the crit feels like a 30-50 minute series of intervals. I haven't been as good as I should be about doing extended sets of intervals, but my summer goal is to essentially recreate crit conditions on my training days by doing 30 minute sessions of 30 second interval/90 second tempo.

At any rate, I'm sort of thinking out loud here, and I appreciate the info and perspective. I'm pretty happy with how far I've come, but I'm really hoping to stand on the podium a few times by the end of the season.

bbbean 

carpediemracing 

There are two aspects to mass start racing, fitness/talent and tactics.

You can get an idea of your FTP/fitness/talent by doing a time trial or by doing a race with hills in it. The storybook racers would get on a bike and do 25 mph in a time trial in a few weeks (Roy Knickman, and his first 22 mph TT was done on sneakers). With a disk wheel, aero bars, etc, my best ever TT was 23.5 mph. My teammates would do the same TT at 25 mph or more. In a short TT I did 25.5 mph; my teammates were approaching 28 mph on less equipment. In one stage race I beat two guys in the opening TT. One guy got hit by a truck and broke his leg. Another guy flatted a few miles into the 8 mile TT and rode the flat the rest of the way.

In road races I'd be one of the first guys shelled out of 100-125 racers. I never finished a road race with the main group and in stage races I never made it past the road race. I always got eliminated in the RR. In one stage race in the RR I finished so late and incoherent that they made me lay in the first aid tent for a while and debated getting an ambulance for me. I'd wasted myself doing all of 55 miles and lost something like 40 minutes to the field.

In those situations above I was pretty fit relatively speaking so that gave me a good idea of where I fell in the "talent" curve.

Fitness is extracting the most of your biological talent. My "talent" level is the same, except for whatever happens as I get older, but when I raced at 215 lbs (max weight, late 2003 to early 2004) I didn't ride as well as when I was 135 (1992) or 155 (2010, lowest recent weight). My best TT was done in 1990-1992 somewhere around there. I was even lighter earlier - after 3 years of racing I was 103 lbs in 1986.

Your talent level, along with fitness level, gives you your world of possibilities. You can TT at 28 mph all day long? Well you have a pretty big world of possibility. You can TT at 23.5 mph all day long? No so much. Sprint? No sprint? Climb? No climb? You need to do an honest assessment of your talent/fitness level and see where you fall in that curve of possibility.

That's the depressing part. It took me years to accept that I wouldn't be a pro at anything on the road. Heck, even after I accepted that fact I still went to Belgium to get my teeth knocked in doing a few elite level kermesses.

There's one saving grace though and that's the appeal of bike racing to me - tactics (and techniques related to tactics). The big thing with mass start racing is wind - the guys in the wind are chewing through energy like you wouldn't believe. The guys sitting in are doing very, very little. I can go through a race and average in the 160-170w range, which translates to me riding along at 15-18 mph on the roads around here. Yet I'm averaging 23-25 mph in a Cat 3 or Cat 3-4 race. When I did Tour of Somerville as a Cat 2 (it was a Cat 2 only race) I averaged I think 175w for the race until I got caught in a crash in the last lap (one of three I think). We averaged 27.5 mph up to that point.

So if you use tactics well, if you can ride in a group efficiently, then you can make bike racing work for you. Maybe not at a pro level but certainly in the 5s and 4s. For me my limit seems to be in the 3s. I even earned an upgrade to Cat 2 but my (relative to me) fitness dropped and I downgraded back to a 3.

Finally don't get sucked into Masters racing just because of age. Yes, they're older, but the Masters races around here are not easy and out west they're even harder. "Masters" usually means old Cat 1s and 2s so they have incredible talent plus they have incredible tactical skills. It's great to learn from them but it won't be easy. Around here it's not super bad, just the odd guy that has 30 national titles under their belt, or the former US Pro champion (who outright won the 156 mile Philly RR, one of few American racers to do so; Lance was one but he paid off some opposing teams, Hincapie was NOT one). Their fitness may be lower than when they were pros but their talent level is insanely high and they have an incredible amount of race smarts/experience. Out west there might be 3-5 current national champs and 10-15 former national champs in a given field. It's a bit nutty.

bbbean 

I'm aware. I'm not assuming I can compete on a par with a guy who spent the last 30 years racing on and off just because we're within a few years of each other's age.

jmikami

First, congrats and good job ... sounds like you are already winning.

You can only compare yourself to what you were doing in the past not to your fellow racers, and don't expect it to be linear. Your want a general upward flow to your progress and that might be going from DNF to dropped but finished, to stayed with the group and finally able to mix it up near the front and have an impact on results. This will happen with dips and troubles, but on average should get better.

If you have a power meter, then you are set, just watch to see if you are getting an upward trend in your power curve. Don't overdo it and don't expect constant growth, but a power meter takes out the dual learning curve of both improving your fitness and your skills in a race. It could be that you are getting fit, but need to improve your pack skills to keep up in the race.

Congrats again.

And it will take years to build yourself backup, the general rule is 7 years ... which varies for every case.

jmikami

Yeah they break up most of the masters races out here to 1/2/3 and 3/4/5 races as well as 40+ or 50+ to address that exact issue. If you are doing an open masters race, you might as well be doing a pro 1/2 race at times. Same guys can be found in both races - and if a crit will do both. Not as many national champs from the NW, but it sucks if you are not both fit and smart.

jmikami

Yes, that is exactly what a crit is. Based on your comments I would advise you to use the group to sling you up the hill (top 5 is ideal, top 2 is bad, back of pack is worse) and then limit the damage on the hill the best you can and never lead on the flats, just grab hold of the wheel in front and follow any draft pockets back up towards the front before the hill. You shouldn't be leaving anyone behind on the flats and starting the hill in the lead if that is what you are doing - your just giving them a free ride. Also find a flat course if there is one near you, fighting off 150 pound riders on climbs is painful.

As for you intervals, yes, you should be doing at least one set of intervals each week ... and change them up to see what is hard on you and what duration comes easier to you and what duration is your weakness. if you can do 2 days of intervals a week, each of different duration.

Have fun and good luck with your season.

thechemist

Is it safe to assume that progression in fitness/experience each year will net a win or podium eventually? Assuming actually gains each year

furiousferret

Its also good to record races. A lot of us newer riders do things wrong that can easily be corrected after another experienced racer sees the video. Just make sure you camera isn't going to fall off during the race

save10

If you lived where in NorCal with me and ygduf and several others live, I would say that you are on a perfect trajectory to have a really great time racing and being competitive. I say that because there is a very strong masters scene for lower categories. Every single race has 35+4 categories and often a seperate 45+4 or even 55+4 depending on the event. and often time 35+4/5 and etc. and those categories are usually the biggest fields.

I only say this because if your only choices are to race open categories or your masters categories are master's 123 its may be a harder to get the results you really want.

But i would also say that you have only raced a few a events. and if you get a season of racing in, the amount of improvement you will make in a year will be signficant even if you still feel like you a struggling.

dont give up man. even if you are stuggling racer....you are still a racer.

Hermes

When I was racing road, my best outcomes was in crits / circuit races against the younger racers. My strength is hit and recover plus great eye hand coordination and agility. I became a specialist and focus on track individual pursuit, team pursuit, 500 meter and team sprint.

I started at age 57 and it was hard to be competitive. It takes a long time to build power, endurance and skills as well as doing the right things at the right time.

Yardstick? I would say how well you know yourself over time. Right now, you do not know yourself. Others have already done an excellent job of discussing what one faces as a new "older" or not so old racer. Here is my contribution. Some inspiration from British Cycling: Maclean on the standing start and team sprint. This is one of my favorite videos and track events and I watch it often to get pumped up for a workout. However, do not sit on the wood track as Maclean did. I did that one and got a sliver in the ass. Finally, we are all individuals, so do not believe that loss in strength as we age thing as universal truth. I have made my greatest gains in strength and leg speed this current season. Although, I would definitely be stronger if I were 30 years younger with the same training and motivation. YMMV.

jmikami

no!

I know fit and smart racers with lots of experience that don't podium most years. It takes fitness/experience/luck, and while you can make your own luck, picking your parents is a good starting point for all things athletic. After that hard work, but basing your experience on podiums can be a bad idea and for some that will just create mental blocks. If you come by the podiums, great, but if you don't pick something you can do and pick the right type of race. Plenty of guys I ride with are more than happy to be part of the winning move, or leading out a teammate for the win or joining up in a team based race. There are many perks to bike racing beyond individual podiums.

That said, podiums are fun and a great goal, just don't expect they will eventually happen because you are working hard.

aaronmcd

True, and while I can't hang with the faster climbers around here, hilly crits are a different story - unrelated to typical w/kg climbing ability. They are short enough to sprint every lap, which is usually how it plays out, so if you have good sprint but mediocre climbing you're fine. Also, the short distance is such that a heavier guy's greater momentum can cancel out any disadvantage due to weight.

furiousferret

Around here we have a transitional Masters Category 4/5 30+. Some great mind somewhere set the marker for getting old at the ripe old age of 30.

bbbean 

No doubt someone well under the age of 30.

jsutkeepspining

30 is old? hell i though 24 was old... sorry had to make some type of dumb and useless comment. it's my job

rideaz

jsutkeepspining

<3 don't worry i was kidding the lady who runs the registration at a local race about my age and her age. She's known me now since i was 16, and the first thing she said when she saw me was "you're finally a big kid now!". I quickly responded with "I know i'm sooooooo old ". I don't really get the 30+ masters thing. I kind of get 35+, i understand 40+, and i really get 50+ and i really really get 60+, but 30 year olds still win ****ing p/1/2 races. Heck one of the first races i did had a guy win the p/1/2 then line up and win the masters race.