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-   -   Tubulars Safer for Crits? (http://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bike-racing/944684-tubulars-safer-crits.html)

cruiserhead 04-24-14 02:44 PM

I just don't get road tubeless. It's like trying to one up standard clinchers but is still lame compared to tubulars, imo.
Besides, the tires are just as expensive as tubulars... heavier and worse ride quality.
here's a good pro/con list
Road Tubeless Tire Benefits & Disadvantages | Bicycling Magazine

I stopped using sealant. It's ok when new and does work but on a high pressure road tire, it can also spray like a mofo before it seals.
That sealant ruins lycra. It also dries out fairly quickly and turns into another maintenance item.
It's a hassle and I never felt needed since I stopped using it. I still have a bottle of it in the garage.

Tubulars are easy. It is intimidating to newbies, but once you learn how to use them it is easy and the payoff is great.

Anyway, without further derailing the conversation, I would jump on those Zipps.
Tubulars are safe for crits and reap the rewards of lightweight and tubular comfort.

btw, tubulars feel and handle great because it is naturally a perfect circle in cross-section.
When you corner, it's still a perfect circle.

Clinchers are a U shape.

San Rensho 04-24-14 03:04 PM

More anecdotal evidence. Sew ups are safer when they go flat. A buddy of mine flatted the rear during a race, had to go a couple of laps flat, was in the final sprint and placed.

Racer Ex 04-24-14 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruiserhead (Post 16699278)
I just don't get road tubeless. It's like trying to one up standard clinchers but is still lame compared to tubulars, imo.
Besides, the tires are just as expensive as tubulars... heavier and worse ride quality.
here's a good pro/con list
Road Tubeless Tire Benefits & Disadvantages | Bicycling Magazine

Quoting a 2012 article from Bicycling Magazine's website? That's not lame?

Time marches on. At this point in time you can get tubeless tires at 240g that roll within a watt or two of the best tubular Crr. Great ride quality and the 25c tires are better than any tubulars I've ridden for traction and ride quality, which is a long list.

I can get them to mount without sealant on every rim I've worked with (another long list BTW), most of them within a few seconds (it did take time to learn how to do this). Put the sealant in through the valve core and I'm done, if I want sealant. I've run them without on tubeless specific rims for months at a shot.

If I flat I can repair the tire with an $0.50 internal patch, vs. sending things off to Tire Alert for repairs at $20 or so with shipping.

Installation: no glue, no glue fumes, no two day gluing process and time spent lining the tire up and making sure I have adhesion.

Removal: Much easier work with a tire lever, no Goof Off, gloves and a VOC mask to clean the rim.

Huge time savings.

No lumpy casings, no valve stem bulge, no glue deterioration, no heat causing glue to fail.

And the heat thing is worth noting as a safety benefit. I've had tubes fail just sitting out in the Texas summer heat and there are more than a few examples of glue loosening on a hot tubular rim. Tubeless will take all the heat you can give them until either the rim or the actual rubber catches fire. For another $500 I'll do a blow torch test to failure.

Mile to mile I've gotten far (far far far) fewer flats tubeless than with tubulars (or clinchers)...this might have to do with 240 of those grams being in the tire casing, vs spreading those grams out between a tire casing, a tube, a valve stem, glue, and base tape. And the tire is designed to (gasp...wait for it)

Hold air.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruiserhead (Post 16699278)
btw, tubulars feel and handle great because it is naturally a perfect circle in cross-section.
When you corner, it's still a perfect circle.
Clinchers are a U shape.

Unless you and the bike weigh nothing you lose what you incorrectly think is a perfect circle the minute you sit on the bike. Weight causes deflection. The tire deforms and flattens.

Most if not all tubulars vulcanize a tread layer on top of the casing, which stops making them a perfect circle before you even sit on the bike. There's nothing inherently beneficial about a perfect circle either. Go talk to a tire engineer about profile optimization.

Dave Mayer 04-24-14 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16699669)
Mile to mile I've gotten far (far far far) fewer flats than with tubulars...this might have to do with 240 of those grams being in the tire casing, vs spreading those grams out between a tire casing, a tube, a valve stem, glue, and base tape.

Despite commuting daily on 240 gram tubulars, I hardly get any flats either. This is because I spike them with Stan's sealant injected through the valve stem. 20cc (20 grams) is more than enough to prevent probably 90% of the pinprick flats I would otherwise experience.

Tubeless (clinchers) has benefits in terms of reducing pinch flats, but they are still clinchers. The rims still carry an unavoidable weight penalty, and if you do flat suddenly, you are still faced with staying upright on the 2 metal rails of death.

cruiserhead 04-24-14 11:35 PM

LOL you definitely should stick with clinchers
If I had all those issues, I wouldn't use tubulars either

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16699669)
Quoting a 2012 article from Bicycling Magazine's website? That's not lame?

Time marches on. At this point in time you can get tubeless tires at 240g that roll within a watt or two of the best tubular Crr. Great ride quality and the 25c tires are better than any tubulars I've ridden for traction and ride quality, which is a long list.

I can get them to mount without sealant on every rim I've worked with (another long list BTW), most of them within a few seconds (it did take time to learn how to do this). Put the sealant in through the valve core and I'm done, if I want sealant. I've run them without on tubeless specific rims for months at a shot.

If I flat I can repair the tire with an $0.50 internal patch, vs. sending things off to Tire Alert for repairs at $20 or so with shipping.

Installation: no glue, no glue fumes, no two day gluing process and time spent lining the tire up and making sure I have adhesion.

Removal: Much easier work with a tire lever, no Goof Off, gloves and a VOC mask to clean the rim.

Huge time savings.

No lumpy casings, no valve stem bulge, no glue deterioration, no heat causing glue to fail.

And the heat thing is worth noting as a safety benefit. I've had tubes fail just sitting out in the Texas summer heat and there are more than a few examples of glue loosening on a hot tubular rim. Tubeless will take all the heat you can give them until either the rim or the actual rubber catches fire. For another $500 I'll do a blow torch test to failure.

Mile to mile I've gotten far (far far far) fewer flats tubeless than with tubulars (or clinchers)...this might have to do with 240 of those grams being in the tire casing, vs spreading those grams out between a tire casing, a tube, a valve stem, glue, and base tape. And the tire is designed to (gasp...wait for it)

Hold air.



Unless you and the bike weigh nothing you lose what you incorrectly think is a perfect circle the minute you sit on the bike. Weight causes deflection. The tire deforms and flattens.

Most if not all tubulars vulcanize a tread layer on top of the casing, which stops making them a perfect circle before you even sit on the bike. There's nothing inherently beneficial about a perfect circle either. Go talk to a tire engineer about profile optimization.


Grumpy McTrumpy 04-25-14 03:43 PM

umd refuses to ride clinchers since the accident. all tubular, all the time.

merlinextraligh 04-25-14 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattm (Post 16697578)
I've seen a few tubulars roll in races, causing crashes - never seen a crash caused by a flat clincher.

I've done it myself.

Go to youtube, search crash St Augustine crit.

But I get your point,likely more crashes come from improperly glued tubulars.

shovelhd 04-25-14 06:57 PM

Safer? Debateable. Faster? Debateable. Lighter? Mostly no contest. I race on tubulars (Zipp 404 with Vittoria Corsa CX) and train on clinchers (psimet with GP4000S). I have not raced the tubulars in the rain. I trust the GP4000 so I choose them. Maybe someday I will try the tubulars.

I would consider tubeless for training and pit wheels if I could get a reasonably priced carbon rim with a modern profile, i.e. not deep V.

Racer Ex 04-26-14 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cruiserhead (Post 16700388)
LOL you definitely should stick with clinchers
If I had all those issues, I wouldn't use tubulars either

Given that you believe tubular tires are some magical perfect circle, I would guess you just breath the fumes and use Elmer's paste to glue your tires to whatever happens to be handy...a rim, a door knob, your dog...

mollusk 04-27-14 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Racer Ex (Post 16697523)
Tubulars on average deflate slower than clinchers. Not always but mostly. A well glued tubular doesn't roll. So yeah, overall tubulars are safer than clinchers.

This.

I have been behind a set of wheels with clinchers that have blown off the rims in a corner in a crit. Scary as hell. Just about as sketchy as a rolled tubular, but a properly glued tubular is OK.

And in training by myself I have had front wheel clincher catastrophically deflate and come off the rim when hitting crap on the road when doing 1 minute intervals around 30 mph and that was just crazy. I have no idea how I didn't crash. I have never had a tubular deflation scare me so badly.


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