Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

"The 33"-Road Bike Racing We set this forum up for our members to discuss their experiences in either pro or amateur racing, whether they are the big races, or even the small backyard races. Don't forget to update all the members with your own race results.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 04-24-14, 09:31 AM   #26
jmikami
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Alpenrose - Portland
Bikes: Veloforma for my primary.
Posts: 361
I am not sure if you have personally promoted very many bike races or not, but you should. You will find a person like yourself on both sides of the argument telling the promoter they are wrong on both sides. The promoter can't win, so they don't. They add additional rules to make their race fair for "most" of the racers in order to encourage the largest turnout possible. They want a full field of racers ... in some cases they want to cherry pick the fields, but that is very rare.

Their goal is to piss off the least amount possible, if you don't like their rules, don't do their races. They are likely counting on a larger number of people liking their rules and doing their event because of their special rules - likey because of people like you in the past. The same can be said for a race that only has a 45+ Masters race instead of a 40+ or 35+ race. Or a cat 3/4 race instead of a cat 3 and cat 4 or a cat 1/2/3 and cat 4. Each race will turn away a few because of how they set it up, but it is their race to run, and no rules exist which state a promoter can't have race specific rules.

So fight with them all you want, but do it from a numbers perspective if you want a change. They don't, or at least shouldn't care at all about one racer complaining. If you truely think the rule to be stupid, then get a number of racers, or better yet teams to tell the promoter the rule is bad, then the rule will change.

As for your helmet, if it is legal for all the events wear it in all the events. But if you wear it in one race and not the other, well then you are not playing by the fair rules of this race which is basically you get to pick something and then use it for the whole event to lower the cost for most racers. And specialized and giro love that you think their helmets are the best of both worlds ... marketing science at its best. I do agree that the helmets with less than 6 vents rule is getting extreme, but bring that up and get teams to back you that it is a stupid rule. Maybe it will change for next year.
jmikami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 09:31 AM   #27
mike868y
avatar by Sean Powers
 
mike868y's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: charm city
Bikes: 2009 Specialized Tarmac Pro
Posts: 8,793
if you honestly want to go through with an appeal through usac (if that's even possible), this probably should have been handled weeks ago, not 3 days before the event.
mike868y is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 09:44 AM   #28
jmikami
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Alpenrose - Portland
Bikes: Veloforma for my primary.
Posts: 361
Oh, and here is a good read on the marketing/science of aero helmets. While I agree that some helmets are likely much better than others ... read this before spending more than $5 on a helmet.

Tales from the llama stable: Aero Road Helmet Testing - Round 1 (Prevail, Evade, Melb Bike Share)

And yes one guys imperfect study doesn't really mean anything, but then again does it mean any less than numbers paid for by the marketing department of the company selling it to you?
jmikami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 11:33 AM   #29
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,664
thanks for everyone's comments. i ran some numbers and determined that the difference would probably be around 50-70 grams of drag at 24mph (i may actually be going slower than this), which comes out to be 10-15 seconds. More than i would like, but oh well. i'll probably wear my old S-Works helmet as its shape is a bit better than my Kask K50
echappist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 12:33 PM   #30
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
And yes one guys imperfect study doesn't really mean anything, but then again does it mean any less than numbers paid for by the marketing department of the company selling it to you?
Imperfect is probably understating. It's essentially worthless.

I'm sure some companies might fudge test results, but I'm also sure some don't. If they are doing wind tunnel or velodrome testing at a facility like VSC the numbers are what they are.

Baseline testing for anything requires a tight protocol, repeatability, and controlled conditions. Llama didn't show any of that.

Helmet testing requires you to test the helmet on you; what is best on one person can be the worst on another. Looking left might produce better results for one helmet. Helmets will produce different numbers in the drops vs. the hoods vs. the IAB.

Different size helmets of the same model will produce different numbers. So will how the helmet is adjusted.

Saying X helmet produces X less drag is saying a Chevy is faster than a Ford. It's pretty easy to shoot that full of holes because there are so many variables.
Racer Ex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 12:46 PM   #31
Ygduf 
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.
Posts: 9,240
real or 100% placebo, I don't care. The evade in my profile picture is faster on me than my prevail by a perceivable amount.
__________________

twitter.com/ygduf
strava.com/athletes/ygduf
Ygduf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 12:53 PM   #32
gsteinb
out walking the earth
 
gsteinb's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: teh Jersey
Bikes:
Posts: 19,804



first world problems
gsteinb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 01:49 PM   #33
jmikami
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Alpenrose - Portland
Bikes: Veloforma for my primary.
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
Imperfect is probably understating. It's essentially worthless.
Worthless is harsh, I would prefer to call it anecdotal. However I would also call Specialized claim of 2.6 meters in a sprint and 20 watts as anecdotal, although intriguing for sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
Helmet testing requires you to test the helmet on you; what is best on one person can be the worst on another.
That is what I was trying to hit on. Thinking that you lost a TT because one guy had an evade and you did not is not something to worry about. Yes if he had aerobars and an aero helmet and you did not and lost by 20 seconds, it is very likely that you were beat by the equipment as much as the rider and you should get some better equipment in the future. And I agree a helmet might make the difference, but you shouldn't focus on that, focus on what you do have and do what you can.

That said, I worry about that kinda of crap all the time too and I am seriously thinking about getting an evade because of that exact reason ... so I guess I am just a bit of a hypocrite and ready to buy some of that cool-aid. Plus it looks so much better than the air attack to me.
jmikami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 01:52 PM   #34
jmikami
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Alpenrose - Portland
Bikes: Veloforma for my primary.
Posts: 361
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
real or 100% placebo, I don't care. The evade in my profile picture is faster on me than my prevail by a perceivable amount.
I actually like to hear things like this, a mountain of case studies of one is better to me than a single study done under perfect conditions. Another sip of cool-aid for me.
jmikami is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 02:00 PM   #35
globecanvas
Ninny
 
globecanvas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: The Gunks
Bikes:
Posts: 4,246
I just now took ownership of a black Evade. Causing no end of "Dark Helmet" Spaceballs jokes at the LBS. It doesn't help that my name is Schwartz.
globecanvas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 02:19 PM   #36
rankin116
Senior Member
 
rankin116's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: ChapelBorro NC
Bikes:
Posts: 3,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
I just now took ownership of a black Evade. Causing no end of "Dark Helmet" Spaceballs jokes at the LBS. It doesn't help that my name is Schwartz.
Sweet lord that is perfect! I see your shcwartz is as big as mine....
rankin116 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 02:47 PM   #37
furiousferret
Senior Member
 
furiousferret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Redlands, CA
Bikes:
Posts: 4,398
I have to agree with the op, taking the unfair advantage route that the promoter is silly. Next year is he going to ban power meters?
furiousferret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 02:54 PM   #38
misterwaterfall
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Bikes:
Posts: 1,241
We have 3 in state stage races, and the RD on the two closest to the Seattle metro area made the TT's Merxck style. No TT bikes, aero helmets/wheels ect. I was kind of pissed sense I just bought a TT bike, but whatever everyone is forced to play by the same rules
misterwaterfall is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-14, 07:38 PM   #39
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmikami View Post
Thinking that you lost a TT because one guy had an evade and you did not is not something to worry about.
Case by case.

I once did a stage race where I went into the last stage dead even on time, tied for the lead, I won by taking a 3 second KOM. I've won TT's by 2 seconds and lost one by one. So my take is that you optimize everything you can if you're in contention. If you're 30 seconds off the leaders then the difference between helmets becomes less of a concern. In the OP's case he is in contention, hence the concerns.

With that my point still stands that helmets, more then any other piece of hardware I've played with, has the most interactivity with the rider and has the widest potential spread of possible outcomes because it's attached to the thing that moves most on a bike rider.

Wind tunnels and track testing has shown me repeatedly that what might be a horrible helmet on someone else, might be the bomb on me. I picked up a Bambino cheap precisely because this was the outcome of one track testing session.

My caveat emptor is that virtually any test data is, in fact, worthless, unless it's you on your bike in your position(s). That Llama had poor controls is secondary to this.

To grasp this better check out some bike testing graphs and see how wind angle (yaw) effects drag.



If you were in the market for a helmet you might pick the "P4 with aero bottle". That would be the bomb till the wind goes to 20 degrees and now you're getting passed. The "Cannondale Slice" helmet sucked monkey balls going straight but rocked it at 20 degrees. Worth noting that my test results for helmets show an even bigger spread as you move different parameters.

Now imagine this chart if you added raising and lowering the front of the bikes by 18 inches and went out to 90 degrees of yaw. That's what you get with a helmet in a mass start race.

For a TT we can assume the OP's head position will be less variable. That still doesn't mean that a test result with another rider with a different head and position will reflect what he will experience.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg WT data from Trek.jpg (56.4 KB, 26 views)

Last edited by Racer Ex; 04-24-14 at 07:56 PM.
Racer Ex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-14, 06:45 PM   #40
shovelhd 
Senior Member
 
shovelhd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Western MA
Bikes: Yes
Posts: 15,377
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
don't argue with them. you can't make someone change their mind, only dig in harder.

Argue your point to USAC: USA Cycling Staff Contacts Directory - USA Cycling

Of course, your local guy can just not run a usac race and do it as a fondo or whatever.
The guy you want to clear this with is Shawn Farrell. He is in charge of what is legal and what is not at the USAC level. As someone else said, you need to clarify this more than a few days before the event.

That said, the promoter has every right to make their own rules as long as they do not contradict a USAC rule. You pays your money, you play by their rules, and you don't get upset if you don't like their rules. You either play or you don't. Don't be the kid in the sandbox throwing sand.
shovelhd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-25-14, 10:16 PM   #41
tetonrider
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Bikes:
Posts: 3,286
Specialized claims 1-3 watt savings at low yaw (0, 5, 10) vs the prevail, which they claim was an aero helmet despite the vents. That is 10-30g drag redux...or .1-.3 s per km.

Just tout it into perspective.
tetonrider is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-14, 12:03 PM   #42
Moyene Corniche
Senior Member
 
Moyene Corniche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Connecticut
Bikes:
Posts: 207
I cannot see how the LG Vorttice would make a difference in a Crit. I have never worn one but it looks like it would impair peripheral vision.
In addition, cornering lines and jumping at the right time will gain you much more time than any Aero benefit...
Why would Aero be a concern in a Crit ???

Pick the allowable equipment and go race.... You can argue the position but that will take weeks for a reply and decisions may not be in your favor.... in that crit a set of wheels that allow you to jump quickly will be more beneficial than anything else....

Any way can we have a Go Pro vid of your race ? ... Then we can determine wether it did / did not matter...
Moyene Corniche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-14, 05:20 PM   #43
echappist 
fuggitivo solitario
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Arlington, VA
Bikes:
Posts: 8,664
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche View Post
I cannot see how the LG Vorttice would make a difference in a Crit. I have never worn one but it looks like it would impair peripheral vision.
re-read what i wrote. it's for "having my cake and eating it too" rather than having it make a difference
Quote:
In addition, cornering lines and jumping at the right time will gain you much more time than any Aero benefit...
Red herring. see above
Quote:
Why would Aero be a concern in a Crit ???
also a red herring. but regarding this threshold matter, moving at 25+ mph, and especially solo? yeah i can see how aero would matter in a crit

Quote:
Any way can we have a Go Pro vid of your race ? ... Then we can determine wether it did / did not matter...
who the hell made you the chief arbiter of this place?
echappist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-14, 06:37 PM   #44
botto 
.
 
botto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Bikes:
Posts: 40,362
Quote:
Originally Posted by echappist View Post
re-read what i wrote. it's for "having my cake and eating it too" rather than having it make a difference

Red herring. see above

also a red herring. but regarding this threshold matter, moving at 25+ mph, and especially solo? yeah i can see how aero would matter in a crit


who the hell made you the chief arbiter of this place?
nobody. that's my job.
botto is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-14, 06:55 PM   #45
Racer Ex 
Resident Alien
 
Racer Ex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Location, location.
Bikes:
Posts: 12,443
Quote:
Originally Posted by botto View Post
nobody. that's my job.
You sure you weren't outsourced?
Racer Ex is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-14, 07:39 PM   #46
Moyene Corniche
Senior Member
 
Moyene Corniche's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Connecticut
Bikes:
Posts: 207
Quote:
Originally Posted by echappist View Post
re-read what i wrote. it's for "having my cake and eating it too" rather than having it make a difference

Red herring. see above

also a red herring. but regarding this threshold matter, moving at 25+ mph, and especially solo? yeah i can see how aero would matter in a crit


who the hell made you the chief arbiter of this place?

Life must be difficult when one doesn't recognize sarcasm ....

You can have your cake and eat it... just may not be as sweet as you'd hoped for....
Nevertheless, I guess since you'll be off the front moving at a constant 25mph you'll need that Aero advantage...
What Cat is this going to be ??

Arbiter ??? Hardly, just that an Aero helmet in a ( at least a 4 corner crit ) is as valuable as wheel covers...
Moyene Corniche is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-14, 08:09 PM   #47
himespau 
Senior Member
 
himespau's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Louisville, KY
Bikes:
Posts: 9,350
I think he's trying to get us to get him all riled up, so he can get some sort of "nobody believed in me, but I did it" boost out of the whole thing. Not saying echap is a troll in general, but this sure feels like tilting at windmills to me at this point.
himespau is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-14, 09:14 PM   #48
nacler22
Tilting at Windmills
 
nacler22's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Les Bois
Bikes: More please
Posts: 690
Quote:
Originally Posted by himespau View Post
I think he's trying to get us to get him all riled up, so he can get some sort of "nobody believed in me, but I did it" boost out of the whole thing. Not saying echap is a troll in general, but this sure feels like tilting at windmills to me at this point.
That would be my gig, thank you.
nacler22 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-14, 10:24 PM   #49
Ygduf 
\_(ツ)_/
 
Ygduf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Redwood City, CA
Bikes: aggressive agreement is what I ride.
Posts: 9,240
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche View Post
L
Arbiter ??? Hardly, just that an Aero helmet in a ( at least a 4 corner crit ) is as valuable as wheel covers...

I did 24 minutes off the front of a 4-corner crit solo at 27mph. Where do you draw your line?
__________________

twitter.com/ygduf
strava.com/athletes/ygduf
Ygduf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-26-14, 11:53 PM   #50
mattm
**** that
 
mattm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: CALI
Bikes:
Posts: 13,540
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
I did 24 minutes off the front of a 4-corner crit solo at 27mph. Where do you draw your line?
man if only you'd held it for two minutes longer!

next time all aero or gtfo.
__________________
cat 1.

blog
mattm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:18 AM.