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Northeast Racing

Old 09-25-15, 07:00 AM
  #2351  
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Originally Posted by DieterDrake
"pass the torch to another promoter"?? Sure. 12 years of my life and a $500k+ investment is yours, for free. Free. free. free.

You have invested a tremendous amount of your time and money into creating the brand of Battenkill. It's natural for you to feel that it therefore has value to you. But if you walk away from the race and it ceases to exist, it has no value at all.

I say this frequently in various contexts, but sunk costs are a myth. The value of Battenkill, the brand, is whatever somebody is willing to pay for it. That value may not match your perception of what it's worth, but simply discarding it is effectively discarding whatever value it has. And if it sits on the metaphorical shelf waiting for the market price to converge with the perceived value, it depreciates every year. Like an empty house.

I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Value is relative and fragile.
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Old 09-25-15, 07:04 AM
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You are correct, but "we" have retained trademarks and copyrights that will likely outlive the event. "I" think it's fair to claim a right to the event property, however invaluable it may be.

Again, if you think it's not worth the entry fee, then don't come. Or better, if you believe you can do better with your own club or organization, then go ahead. I maintain, however, that anyone thinking of getting into the bicycle race business at this point should have their head examined. There's very little upside.

We also believe it's OK to charge a premium for providing the opportunity for people to race and then run to their Twitter accounts to complain about how awful we are for charging a premium... THAT you can't make up. The funny thing is many of those people keep coming back. I'll never figure it out.

Last edited by DieterDrake; 09-25-15 at 07:49 AM.
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Old 09-25-15, 07:43 AM
  #2353  
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz
Well apparently racing continues to survive despite me being wrong.
the declining number of road races says otherwise.
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Old 09-25-15, 07:57 AM
  #2354  
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To your mind road races are disappearing because racers find them too expensive?
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Old 09-25-15, 08:36 AM
  #2355  
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I chose not to go in 2015. It was a bit over my cost threshold, but part of that is the knowledge that I'd probably also not have much of a chance of a top ten spot. With training and improvement, the prospect of doing the race for a premium cost looks more attractive to me if I am also more confident that I will be still "in the game" all the way until the end, as opposed to just riding on the same road as the race. I can do a solo ride at home without paying or driving.

So there are a lot of variables in the choosing process. However, I don't feel there is any actual problem with charging a premium fee. There is also no problem with me not going. No problem, no complaints. No unrealistic expectations. Just life.
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Old 09-25-15, 08:40 AM
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Racers don't. Non-racers who would otherwise be interested in getting into the sport, if not for the uncomfortable association with pro cycling and the Tuesday night group riders who illegally take over the local roads at the expense of their co-worker's trip to their kid's soccer practice do. It's generally not worth it to them.
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Old 09-25-15, 09:36 AM
  #2357  
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Originally Posted by DieterDrake
Racers don't. Non-racers who would otherwise be interested in getting into the sport, if not for the uncomfortable association with pro cycling and the Tuesday night group riders who illegally take over the local roads at the expense of their co-worker's trip to their kid's soccer practice do. It's generally not worth it to them.
I can't imagine what it takes to put on Battenkill. As most know I am on the race committee for Hilltowns and will be the co-RD next year. 8 towns and 450 racers is plenty big for me and my capabilities. Costs and difficulty go up every year. Just look at Wells Ave and Bethel, two long running series that are being squeezed out of their venue by changing business. Both races run by labor of love. If money keeps them around, then bring on the money because when the love runs out, the races evaporate. That model is not sustainable.

Every year we strive to break even or be slightly in the black for Hilltowns. That is the economics of bike racing. Where the club makes real money is Bikefest, a festival of five supported rides in one day. Rides, low cost races like hill climbs and race rides like gran fondos are what pay the bills. How would one feel about being a Cat1 gran fondo state champion? Is that what people want?
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Old 09-25-15, 10:06 AM
  #2358  
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Originally Posted by shovelhd

Every year we strive to break even or be slightly in the black for Hilltowns. That is the economics of bike racing. Where the club makes real money is Bikefest, a festival of five supported rides in one day. Rides, low cost races like hill climbs and race rides like gran fondos are what pay the bills. How would one feel about being a Cat1 gran fondo state champion? Is that what people want?
This is what I am driving at though. There seems to be this desire to turn the racing scene into a money maker. That is all well and good but from where I stand it just isn't feasible. USAC officials don't really make much, races need volunteers (who aren't paid), and so on. As much as I have some beef with USAC right now, what about them? If promoters say "We want to make a real profit!" why shouldn't the officials say that aswell? Then the "volunteers" will start to expect more than just getting a T-Shirt.

Fun rides are different. I have done a few Gran Fondos and while they aren't exactly my thing, I understand why people like them. Sure, make a profit in a market where you have enough participants to make the expense worth your while and the overhead costs are lower. But it seems like people are upset that races don't bring in the same kind of money that Gran Fondos, novelty Hill Climbs, or other "fun" events bring in. You can't just say: "People ride bikes at my event, thus I can expect to make profit X"
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Old 09-25-15, 11:26 AM
  #2359  
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Promoters should not lose money promoting amateur sporting events. Period.
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Old 09-25-15, 11:26 AM
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Originally Posted by dz_nuzz
This is what I am driving at though. There seems to be this desire to turn the racing scene into a money maker. That is all well and good but from where I stand it just isn't feasible. USAC officials don't really make much, races need volunteers (who aren't paid), and so on. As much as I have some beef with USAC right now, what about them? If promoters say "We want to make a real profit!" why shouldn't the officials say that aswell? Then the "volunteers" will start to expect more than just getting a T-Shirt.

Fun rides are different. I have done a few Gran Fondos and while they aren't exactly my thing, I understand why people like them. Sure, make a profit in a market where you have enough participants to make the expense worth your while and the overhead costs are lower. But it seems like people are upset that races don't bring in the same kind of money that Gran Fondos, novelty Hill Climbs, or other "fun" events bring in. You can't just say: "People ride bikes at my event, thus I can expect to make profit X"

Are you kidding? Racing comes at a FAR HIGHER risk to the promoter than any century or gran fondo. To say that "racing" should be set aside as some charitable endeavor is ludicrous. It's already that in many respects, from my perspective anyway; it's the most under-priced endurance sport there is. Pound for pound, road bicycle racing is a complete steal compared to any other endurance sport. Unfortunately, it carries with it an attitude that everyone should take a vow of poverty to provide the race itself so everyone else can profit from it in the form of weekend entertainment for racers, or in the form of hotel charges, restaurants, and gas at the corner gas station. Screw that. It's my effort and risk that enables it all in the first place...

We pay everyone, by the way, in one fashion or another. This is the only way we are able to sustain an event like Battenkill. Let's be honest, if you're not directly involved in a cycling event and are deriving a benefit of some kind (either as a paid staff member, police/EMS, or as member of your local civic group in line for a post-event donation), then you're not invested at all and would probably rather it not clog up local roads on a weekend.
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Old 09-25-15, 11:45 AM
  #2361  
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i think usac needs to re-impliment the "teams must host a race" rule
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Old 09-25-15, 11:50 AM
  #2362  
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NYC park races are what, $45 now? That's for the privilege of racing at 6am for 90 minutes. That's zero porta potties, no cops, no EMS and guys that are generally high, marshaling. AND the promoters are making money. Surely a legit RR warrants a higher price tag.
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Old 09-25-15, 01:02 PM
  #2363  
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Originally Posted by DieterDrake
To say that "racing" should be set aside as some charitable endeavor is ludicrous. It's already that in many respects, from my perspective anyway;
Exactly, it is already that in many respects. You are trying to carve a swath of profitability in a sport that does not really garner profits for anyone involved outside of the industry. Teams mostly operate on charity, asking for volunteers is relying on people's charity, even officiating is close to charity. Now do I feel that by it's nature it needs to be charity? Nope, but I feel that expecting to make the profit you WANT to make is unreasonable.

Originally Posted by DieterDrake
We pay everyone, by the way, in one fashion or another.
But the question is if they make a decent profit? I know USAC has mandatory pay attached to their officials, and I know that volunteers get swag. You have stated that you are in this to turn a profit, all well and good but then you expect everyone to just shut up, play nice, pay you and not speak up when they feel that the service is not on par with the cost?

What I really don't understand out of all of this is that you charge more, deliver less (In my opinion atleast) get a relatively high turnout rate for all of your events and then you end up complaining that people complain. From the rough numbers you have to be making more than any of the other races in our area, so it either comes down to the fact that you want to make more, or you wan't people to not complain.

Maybe I should ask this: What is it you want? You should already be making more than the other promoters from what I can tell. What is it that would make race promoting more feasible for you, if that is more profit, then so be it but what do you propose that every other promoter could implement to make it more feasible for everyone?
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Old 09-25-15, 01:24 PM
  #2364  
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i think dieter's proven that there is a market for "premium" road events. hell, just look at the crowds battenkilled pulled a few years ago. however, he's also proven that when people pay more they expect a higher quality event. people's frustration with dieter's events doesn't necessarily seem to stem from the price but more from the fact that people feel the event was not worth it for one reason or another (see: catskills tt times). if people pay a premium over an "average" event they expect a premium experience, not a sub par one. personally, i've never had an outright negative experience at one of dieter's events, which is why I continue to do them.
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Old 09-25-15, 01:49 PM
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If you think we deliver less as compared to other races then you should REALLY consider not coming. Nearly 2500 participants disagree with you every year, incidentally.

I don't expect anything of anyone. If they want to participate, then the entry fee is X, which is generally what 2500 people are willing to pay and no more. If you aren't willing, then there is no fee - I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. This is the best form of "speaking up".

Look, I get it. You want to heckle me for being successful at what I do and for expecting to get paid for it. There's a certain crowd out there that feels empowered to do this with some regularity, meanwhile fantasizing for lower entry fees and high prize payouts. Great. I don't care. Those days are all but over, though. Don't blame me. It's not my fault. I'm just responding to market conditions and proactively taking steps to minimize costs for a business that only gets one or two weekends a year to get it right.

I try not to recommend to other promoters what they should and shouldn't do. It's really none of my business. Most of them take it the wrong way anyway and think I'm trying to take over their event. [sigh]

Last edited by DieterDrake; 09-25-15 at 02:03 PM.
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Old 09-25-15, 01:56 PM
  #2366  
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Originally Posted by mike868y
personally, i've never had an outright negative experience at one of dieter's events, which is why I continue to do them.
...
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Old 09-25-15, 03:36 PM
  #2367  
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Originally Posted by DieterDrake
If you think we deliver less as compared to other races then you should REALLY consider not coming. Nearly 2500 participants disagree with you every year, incidentally.
Don't worry about that, after Catskills this year (Which I was admittedly cajoled into by my teammates saying "But it's the last Catskills!") I was able to wash my hands of it. Off to Nittany for next year!

I don't expect anything of anyone. If they want to participate, then the entry fee is X, which is generally what 2500 people are willing to pay and no more. If you aren't willing, then there is no fee - I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. This is the best form of "speaking up".

Great, you have your business model. But you seem to be expecting the racing community to thank you for it, applaud you, and no complain when they feel it wasn't worth it.


Look, I get it. You want to heckle me for being successful at what I do and for expecting to get paid for it. There's a certain crowd out there that feels empowered to do this with some regularity, meanwhile fantasizing for lower entry fees and high prize payouts. Great. I don't care. Those days are all but over, though. Don't blame me. It's not my fault. I'm just responding to market conditions and proactively taking steps to minimize costs for a business that only gets one or two weekends a year to get it right.

Uhhhhh.....You seem to be exhibiting a persecution complex. People don't dislike you for the fact that you wish to make money, it is HOW you do it. You charge more and deliver less. You do realize that every other business has to deal with the same complaint if they do this?

I try not to recommend to other promoters what they should and shouldn't do. It's really none of my business. Most of them take it the wrong way anyway and think I'm trying to take over their event. [sigh]

​This was a non-answer to my attempt at being constructive. The original argument was that if promoting was profitable for the promoter then maybe we would see more races. My question was: "What is it that would make race promoting more feasible for you, if that is more profit, then so be it", perhaps it is less complaints? Earlier registration? Higher fees? Sure in the end all of the above would probably be good, raise the gross and lower the costs but there is a point where it goes too far.
Honestly if your events qualified as premium in their execution and I had to pay premium for it, then I wouldn't be as vocal. But it is a premium cost, without the event being executed in a corresponding way.

I feel like everything boils down to this: Races aren't profitable, Dieter Drake is the example of someone who tried but couldn't make it work and got burned for it. Maybe all other races should do the same and raise prices by 50% and then tack on the USAC insurance fee in order to keep racing alive, I don't know, it isn't up to me it's up to the promoters but then they need to decide if increasing prices will lower the participation rate enough that it doesn't hurt them. But they can't then complain about the participation rate or complaints if they make a change like that.
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Old 09-25-15, 03:49 PM
  #2368  
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You must be from Twitter.

I don't know why I beat my head with these morons. Holy F***.

You're upset that I took away prize money for your weekend entertainment and I charge more than a set of tires for your bike. I get it. Ok, fine. If you'd already decided that you're not coming back, then why are you so interested in critiquing my events and spending so much energy typing fairly detailed responses to my responses, though? That seems odd to me and most objective readers here, I am sure.

A recent UCI event - with no entry fee - had virtually no marshals on the course and a random ambulance came on to the course and caused a major crash. Yet our events are lacking in technical execution and we charge too much? Go there instead, next time, please. Please!

Last edited by DieterDrake; 09-25-15 at 04:23 PM.
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Old 09-25-15, 04:16 PM
  #2369  
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I think I have a twitter account somewhere, but no I am not of the tweeting world.

Edit: [sigh] Edit to respond to the edit

Anyways: Because this is a forum, not twitter, so we critique, argue and debate things that we really shouldn't care about with other people who share a common interest.

You don't even seem like you care to debate or discuss. You avoid points and seemingly get more and more frustrated about the fact that I am trying to debate things with you. Okay fine. It is agreed, I won't come to any more of your events and you don't have to care about what I say.

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Old 09-25-15, 04:58 PM
  #2370  
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Originally Posted by DieterDrake
You must be from Twitter.

I don't know why I beat my head with these morons. Holy F***.

You're upset that I took away prize money for your weekend entertainment and I charge more than a set of tires for your bike. I get it. Ok, fine. If you'd already decided that you're not coming back, then why are you so interested in critiquing my events and spending so much energy typing fairly detailed responses to my responses, though? That seems odd to me and most objective readers here, I am sure.

A recent UCI event - with no entry fee - had virtually no marshals on the course and a random ambulance came on to the course and caused a major crash. Yet our events are lacking in technical execution and we charge too much? Go there instead, next time, please. Please!
Originally Posted by dz_nuzz
I think I have a twitter account somewhere, but no I am not of the tweeting world.
I am 3000 miles away and I cringe when anyone critiques a promoter or complains about cost and/or prize money. Promoters must be the best coordinated cabal, as every single one of them, including CDR and Rob Curtis who post in here (and share budget workbooks!), have to scrape and scrounge to make races at a minimal loss.

We go out and race on busted farm roads because those counties are so poor they will begrudgingly take our permit money...
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Old 09-25-15, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
I am 3000 miles away and I cringe when anyone critiques a promoter or complains about cost and/or prize money. Promoters must be the best coordinated cabal, as every single one of them, including CDR and Rob Curtis who post in here (and share budget workbooks!), have to scrape and scrounge to make races at a minimal loss.

We go out and race on busted farm roads because those counties are so poor they will begrudgingly take our permit money...
Agreed.
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Old 09-25-15, 05:51 PM
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Racers these days think promoters owe them something beyond a safe event and what's on the reg page. No we don't, and if you don't think you got your money's worth you have the option of not coming back. Stop bothering me though. It's really that simple.You think I don't know when we've made a mistake? Yeah I do. I probably know it before you do and am already thinking of ways to avoid the same screw up in the future.

If you want to pay 10 bucks for a club-run lap race on a Sunday in the local office park which benefits world peace so you can get USAC upgrade points and free socks, then go do those events. Nobody really cares.

Good luck.

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Old 09-25-15, 05:59 PM
  #2373  
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Everyone has a point where an event doesn't feel worth the price. I don't think any and all criticism of promoters should be verboten, after all, they are producing a product and we the customer have a right to expect a certain level of quality. That said, that doesn't mean that road races are not underpriced relative to the cost to produce them and that race promotion is not under-appreciated. And I'm definitely not comfortable saying promoters should just accept that they should labor so hard to simply break even, at best. The thing is, though, something has to change in a big way for people to be willing to pay what the promoter perceives as the real value of an event. That mismatch in perception of value is a problem, and if you think the issue is just that bike racers are a bunch of whiny entitled brats, well, you're not going to solve the problem and you're going to piss people off.

With respect to Dieter, success hides problems, and if thousands of people keep coming back, I hear over and over again about people being dissatisfied with the experience they paid for. You can chalk it up to entitlement and haters if you like, and no doubt you'd be partly right, but I don't hear this about every event. Personally, I did Battenkill in 2009 and had no particular complaints except for my result not being recorded; but I was so far off the back that it didn't matter. And Dieter was kind enough to put me on the pre-reg list, in those sell-out days, when I was too broke to pay before race day. So it's complicated. Anyway, not the most coherent assemblage of thoughts ever, I suppose.
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Old 09-25-15, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DieterDrake
Racers these days think promoters owe them something beyond a safe event and what's on the reg page. No we don't, and if you don't think you got your money's worth you have the option of not coming back. It's really that simple. If you want to pay 10 bucks for a club-run lap race on a Sunday in the local office park which benefits world peace so you can get USAC upgrade points and free socks, then go do those events. Nobody really cares.

Good luck.
I'm really not sure what you're getting at, here. You say something like Battenkill is a premium event (or was that someone else? I'm tired), but then that promoters don't owe racers anything but safety and what's on the reg page. Where's the premium value? Is it the big light-up archway over the road? Seriously, though, I understand the desire to charge a fee commensurate with what it costs to produce a race and still make a profit, cause duh. But when you're in a marketplace where the standard price for a road race is half of what you're charging and the experience for the racer feels more or less the same as what they get at those cheaper events - and this is the fundamental thing most people are complaining about with Battenkill - then they're going to feel stiffed, and it's hard to blame them.

No, it's not FAIR, nothing is fair, but that's market economics for you. Personally I've got the 2009 Battenkill course framed and on the wall in my bathroom, so I'm fine with the $65 or whatever it was that I spent at the time. But that same registration fee at a century ride or something like the VT Overland GP gets you staffed rest stops, free food and beer after the ride, maybe a hat and t-shirt... point being, the market for something like a "premium USAC road race" simply may not really exist. And that's why centuries, gravel rides and fondos continue to grow. Because you can sign up so many more people who simply do not care about a "result" and make it up in volume.

This whole tedious debate just stems out of one side wanting to believe the promoters are money-grubbing jerks and the other side wanting to believe racers are just a bunch of entitled whiners. And on the micro level you can always point to examples for both, but ultimately I don't think any of those theories are satisfactory.
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Old 09-25-15, 06:27 PM
  #2375  
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Just so I don't get sucked into this 1%er discussion, as an official I barely make minimum wage. My 45mpg NOx emitting, EPA cheating, salamander killing VW diesel is what puts me over the top.
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