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  1. #26
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 View Post
    In the recent Tour of CA, Bradly Wiggins was the overall winner, but the Garmin Sharp team won the race as a team. Wiggins rode for SKY.
    That one's tough though. Isn't the team race win based on GC times? It's a very strong team that has the strength to get the fastest average GC for five of their guys, and still have the energy to send the overall winner up the road.

    I guess that my point is that since I've never been in the hunt for serious cash, jerseys, or medals, I find glory in how well the team does. I have a nice collection of trophies and some won Oakleys that I still wear, but I get a lot of joy out of sending teammates to the top step.

  2. #27
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    Hey, I know, instead of coming up with a cogent rebuttal why not just throw out a little more of your asinine drivel?

    Nothing like a good distraction!
    Next time the receptionist at Oracle has to step in for Larry Ellison, let us know bright eyes.

  3. #28
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    In this years Boston Marathon, the Americans worked together to get Meb the win, and they didn't get anything. The tactics were different, but all the same a selfless act. American Strong: The Untold Story of American Teamwork and How Ryan Hall Helped Meb Keflezighi Win Boston | LetsRun.com


    IMO, the dynamics of bicycle racing is complicated and they really do not have a great way of representing it in the results. Its a team sport, but scored as an individual event; sometimes the team element gets the rider the win, sometimes the team does nothing. Like someone earlier said, the reward is a paycheck, and hopefully a bonus from the team.

  4. #29
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    Come on, OP knows that there is more at stake than just a jersey and medals. Money changes hands at these races. Good teammates get rewarded, in one way or another. If they didn't, the idea of a "team sport" would quickly disappear.
    It's incorrect to think that there's money exchanged on a team like SmartStop or in ANY women's team. I promise you Mike Creed was not making deals with other teams, and I promise you he has nothing in his budget to reward his riders beyond a big dinner that night.

    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    Not sure why you guys are so adamant about a team-aspect when cycling is about individual glory and always has been. Most of the people on a team have little chance of winning.

    At the pro level, their reward is a paycheck and hopefully another year of getting paychecks.

    Should office workers get the glory and recognition of the CEO? That's not how the real world works.
    So following this example, none of the NFL linemen should get a Super Bowl ring because they didn't experience the individual glory of scoring a touchdown. I know that's not exactly what you meant, but it's a pretty accurate parallel. Cycling is full of riders who can't win a race, but football is full of players who can't throw, catch, or run.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    We can all protest otherwise, but, while cycling has team tactics, it is not really a team sport as is football (either kind) or basketball.
    Maybe if we had a bench to sit on, it would be a team sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    I'm not against this, mind you, but it's hard to track. Sometimes my wins come due to, or with teammates. And sometimes I'm alone, or the race is of such a level where I may have teammates but they're not really in the same race I'm in. State crit last week for instance. I saw my guys in the parking lot before and after. Many teams are huge, and folks may span categories, genders, states and regions. Where's the line?
    You're right. At the amateur level, it's nearly impossible. You have guys who sit on the back all day. And when you win something, they stand their with their hand our waiting for their share of your prize money.


    As I was introducing the riders at the start of the Folsom time trial at the Amgen Tour, I'd come across the domestiques who had NO results to speak of. Riders like Cannondale's Fabio Sabatini. He has ridden all of the Major Grand Tours. 
His top placing was 46th in the 2008 TdF. 
He was the Lantern Rouge at the 2011 Tour de France.
    How do you make that sound good to a general audience?
    Last edited by EventServices; 05-29-14 at 08:55 AM. Reason: Spelling. Where's my copy editor???

  5. #30
    Resident Alien Racer Ex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    Hey, I know, instead of coming up with a cogent rebuttal why not just throw out a little more of your asinine drivel?

    Nothing like a good distraction!
    Next time the receptionist at Oracle has to step in for Larry Ellison, let us know. Your analogy compared apples to fire trucks because they both are red. Businesses and bike racing have only the most superficial similarities.

    And calling something asinine drivel isn't exactly overwhelming us with a cogent rebuttal. You are glue and I am rubber; consider taking your own advice. Defending your analogy does not consist of trotting out your Thesaurus to call something names.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    Notice also that in these certain stage races where you are forced to forfeit if your team doesn't show, there is also a team competition.
    Note that in all professional races teams are allocated a specific number of slots and are, in fact, expected to start the race with those slots filled. Professional sports don't forfeit BTW, even if they fall short of the number of eligible players. This isn't Little League.

    The "team" competitions you reference are rewarded not for collective effort towards a goal, but rather for an aggregate of individuals based on time. It's like rewarding a basketball team for the best field goal percentage even if they get blown out.

    Like a fast break with the clock at 3 seconds in basketball, you'd like to be 3 on 1 heading to the finish line. Yes, LeBron might swat the ball back into your face but he's certainly going to do that if you're 1 on 1. See Cancellera, Fabian.

    No one has put forth a lucid argument that a team effort at the professional level does not often make the difference between winning or losing, because that's self evident.

    Unless stone tablets sent from Yahweh have commanded it to be so, how we currently reward (or don't) teams is an artificial construct, like anything in sports.

    Some of you would live in mud huts because we always have lived in mud huts and we make huts out of mud. Jumping up and down pointing at mud is not a "cogent rebuttal" to a motion that brick may be a superior building material.

    Event Services was suggesting a shift in how racers on a team are rewarded for an effort that produces a winning result in things like the Olympics and Nats. Examining the facts, the argument for has merit.
    Last edited by Racer Ex; 05-29-14 at 09:30 AM.

  6. #31
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post

    As I was introducing the riders at the start of the Folsom time trial at the Amgen Tour, I'd come across the domestiques who had NO results to speak of. Riders like Cannondale's Fabio Sabatini. He has ridden all of the Major Grand Tours. 
His top placing was 46th in the 2008 TdF. 
He was the Lantern Rouge at the 2011 Tour de France.
    How do you make that sound good to a general audience?
    I didn't know this was you^

    I imagine the task was equally if not more difficult when introducing some of the lesser accomplished domestic team members.

  7. #32
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    Last I checked pros are paid to do their job, even the ones not paid very much. Lets not act like the guys leading out Sagan are doing it completely selfless so he can have the glory, they were hired and are payed to do that exact thing. They do it because they dont have a chance of winning themselves.

    And please don't compare a team pursuit to a RR like they are at all the same. A RR you can win with or without your team, they rarely make or break your ride. Try doing a TP solo from halfway in. Or TS and man1 and 2 pull off on the first lap.

    To your football analogy this is why its not the same. Imagine half your lineman were not even there, what is your chance of winning? zero. Now imagine half your cycling team not there, whats your chance of winning? Must be zero without the whole team right? Even then a lineman might get a ring but the QB is the one with the 9 figure paycheck, and I doubt he 'shares' it with the team.

  8. #33
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
    As I was introducing the riders at the start of the Folsom time trial at the Amgen Tour, I'd come across the domestiques who had NO results to speak of. Riders like Cannondale's Fabio Sabatini. He has ridden all of the Major Grand Tours. 
His top placing was 46th in the 2008 TdF. 
He was the Lantern Rouge at the 2011 Tour de France.
    How do you make that sound good to a general audience?
    "Ridden all the grand tours, multiple Tour de France finisher!" would work for a general audience.
    cat 1.

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  9. #34
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    I'm still new to racing and just started watching on TV, but I feel like the teammates are much stronger than the sprinters that win the races. If the team has 8 members and 7 are working at the front of the chase group (peleton) to pull in the break I feel like they are stronger than Cavendish who just sits in the middle of the group for 120 miles and then sprints for a few seconds and wins the race when his team clears out a lane for him. If the other guys are so strong, why don't they try saving some of their energy and then leading out with 1k to go instead of leading out Cav so he only has to sprint meters?

  10. #35
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hack View Post
    I didn't know this was you^

    I imagine the task was equally if not more difficult when introducing some of the lesser accomplished domestic team members.
    Shoot, if I'd known, I would have brought my copy of Roadie for an autograph.
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  11. #36
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Unless stone tablets sent from Yahweh have commanded it to be so, how we currently reward (or don't) teams is an artificial construct, like anything in sports.
    Exactly this. We reward bike races the way we do because that's historically how we've done it. At some point, people like needmoreair start to assume that things are the way they are because that's how they work organically, and that's when electrons start getting wasted moving hot air from one node on the network to all the others. But bike racing isn't organic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    I'm still new to racing and just started watching on TV, but I feel like the teammates are much stronger than the sprinters that win the races. If the team has 8 members and 7 are working at the front of the chase group (peleton) to pull in the break I feel like they are stronger than Cavendish who just sits in the middle of the group for 120 miles and then sprints for a few seconds and wins the race when his team clears out a lane for him. If the other guys are so strong, why don't they try saving some of their energy and then leading out with 1k to go instead of leading out Cav so he only has to sprint meters?
    Because the leadout men want to continue to be employed. And because your intuitions about the importance of raw threshold power are incorrect.

  12. #37
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    For more on Cavendish, and tidbits such as the correct spelling of peleton <sic> see 217.

  13. #38
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    ...

    Note that in all professional races teams are allocated a specific number of slots and are, in fact, expected to start the race with those slots filled. Professional sports don't forfeit BTW, even if they fall short of the number of eligible players. This isn't Little League. ...
    Mr. Sacre was allowed to stay in the game despite being disqualified. Different situation. Utterly. Actually weakens your point since the whole reason that particular rules exists in basketball is precisely because 5 against 4 is utterly hopeless for the shorthanded team.

    ... The "team" competitions you reference are rewarded not for collective effort towards a goal, but rather for an aggregate of individuals based on time. It's like rewarding a basketball team for the best field goal percentage even if they get blown out.

    Like a fast break with the clock at 3 seconds in basketball, you'd like to be 3 on 1 heading to the finish line. Yes, LeBron might swat the ball back into your face but he's certainly going to do that if you're 1 on 1. See Cancellera, Fabian. ...
    First, the team competition can be played using collective effort. One can imagine filling a team full of strong domestique type riders, guys who can get into the top 10 but not the top 3, and dominating the team competition. Certainly Lance Armstrong's salary would have bought 3 or 4 top 10 riders. It's just not played that way because individual results are more difficult to achieve and thus more valuable. Do you think this will change if everyone on the team gets a yellow jersey? The most valuable guy on the team will still be the guy who crosses the line first, only, it'll be harder to differentiate this fellow because he's wearing the same jersey as the rest of his teammates.

    Second, if you started Lebron James, solo, against a full team of starters, he'd get his ass kicked. Might never get past half court to the own basket to even attempt a shot. Not so in a bike race. Put Cancellera, solo, into a race where he'd be expected to do well, and he still has a shot at winning, might even be the favorite, despite not having teammates.

    Unless stone tablets sent from Yahweh have commanded it to be so, how we currently reward (or don't) teams is an artificial construct, like anything in sports.

    Some of you would live in mud huts because we always have lived in mud huts and we make huts out of mud. Jumping up and down pointing at mud is not a "cogent rebuttal" to a motion that brick may be a superior building material.

    Event Services was suggesting a shift in how racers on a team are rewarded for an effort that produces a winning result in things like the Olympics and Nats. Examining the facts, the argument for has merit.
    We can reward teammembers any way we want. We can give them all trophies and jerseys and money. We can mention them in race introductions. Sure. But the dude who crosses the line first will always be the rider most valued. You can fill a Tour de France team with Hinicapies and you'll never get that team the GC win. You can take one Lance Armstrong (juiced version), give him no teammates whatsoever, and he'd still be a favorite to win. That truth dictates the actual rewards and recognition, not any particular participation/recognition system of rewards.
    Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 05-29-14 at 11:28 AM. Reason: clarity
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  14. #39
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    You can take one Lance Armstrong (juiced version), give him no teammates whatsoever, and he'd still be a favorite to win.
    I think that is a pretty big stretch. Any given stage, maybe. Three weeks is a long time to wear a target on your back.

  15. #40
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I think that is a pretty big stretch. Any given stage, maybe. Three weeks is a long time to wear a target on your back.
    1999. His team was basically invisible (i.e. non-juiced) that year.

    In any case, he goes, at worse, from top favorite to top 10. This is not at all like Lebron going solo against an NBA starting team of five.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  16. #41
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    This thread is deep, very deep, in a very boring rabbit hole.

    Actually this thread is a boring rabbit hole if you ask me.

    Oh wait, nobody asked... carry on! =]
    cat 1.

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  17. #42
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    i'm pretty sure superman could take mighty mouse.

  18. #43
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    If you're in an imaginary universe where Armstrong is riding without teammates, his rivals would be without teammates. Froome would have beat Wiggins in such a universe. And Lemond Hinault.

    There's no time to waste Marty


  19. #44
    In the Pain Cave thechemist's Avatar
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    What about a compromise? Jersey for most combative would be a fun addition to winners jersey. You still have some big issues especially with smaller races in that aside from the motopacer you viewing audience is very limited.

    Introduce another jersey to go after and then it becomes a smaller ask to award a whole team trophies.

  20. #45
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    I view bike racing as a collaborative sport than a team sport. These collaborations are between racers with corresponding interests and are intricate and fragile. Teams are simply one collaboration amongst many, albeit one where loyalty is mostly expected to trump expediency and personal gain.
    Last edited by Brian Ratliff; 05-29-14 at 12:08 PM.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

  21. #46
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    what is that, a life preserver?

  22. #47
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    If you're in an imaginary universe where Armstrong is riding without teammates, his rivals would be without teammates. Froome would have beat Wiggins in such a universe. And Lemond Hinault.

    There's no time to waste Marty

    [img]http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/91mRbaBaGML._SL1500_.jpg[/im g]
    So, do you need a time machine to imagine Michael Jordan alone on the court against any NBA caliber team? I'm pretty sure you don't need a time machine to imagine Armstrong isolated against rivals. I mean, I think I saw a video of it the other day...

    But, right, unknowable...
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
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  23. #48
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Bill Swerski: Now, gentlemen, let me ask you this: What if Da Bears were all 14 inches tall, you know, about so high? Now, what's your score of today's game?

    Carl Wollarski: Against Da Giants?

    Bill Swerski: Yes, give 'em a handicap.

    Carl Wollarski: Bears 18, Giants 10. And that would finally be a good game.

    Pat Arnold: Yeah, it would be a good game. Mini Bears 24, Giants 14.

    Todd O'Conner: What about Ditka? Would he be mini, too?

    Bill Swerski: No, he would be full-grown.

    Todd O'Conner: Oh, then, uh.. Mini Bears 31, Giants 7.


    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    In any case, he goes, at worse, from top favorite to top 10.
    Which is a pretty big difference.

  24. #49
    Senior Member Brian Ratliff's Avatar
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    Sigh... if you want trophies for leading out your teammate, have at them... They cost $10.99 at the trophy store (another 10 bucks to engrave). Pros race for money. Amateurs race for challenge and entertainment. Nobody races for $10.99 trophies.
    Cat 2 Track, Cat 3 Road.
    "If you’re new enough [to racing] that you would ask such question, then i would hazard a guess that if you just made up a workout that sounded hard to do, and did it, you’d probably get faster." --the tiniest sprinter

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    So, do you need a time machine to imagine Michael Jordan alone on the court against any NBA caliber team? I'm pretty sure you don't need a time machine to imagine Armstrong isolated against rivals. I mean, I think I saw a video of it the other day...

    But, right, unknowable...
    to bring this back on topic:

    Bob Swerski: Well, we'll get to that later Todd, but first off, we're gettin' ready to enjoy today's basketball game folks, in which the Detroit Pistons are gonna run into a certain team from a certain town known for it's Polish Sausage, assumed to be the home of....Da Bulls!

    Superfans: (Lifting their beer mugs again) Da Bulls!

    Bob Swerski: Okay, some predictions from the [COLOR=blue !important][COLOR=blue !important]sports [COLOR=blue !important]fans[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR] on today's game. Pat?

    Pat Arnold: Bulls, one forty-nine to twenty-tree.

    Bob Swerski: Carl?

    Carl Wollarski: Bulls, one forty-nine to fifty-two.

    Bob Swerski: Okay, some difference in opinion there between you guys. Todd?

    Todd O'Conner: Bulls, four hundred and two to zip!

    Bob Swerski: Okay! Real good!

    Todd O'Conner: But, Michael Jordan will be held to under two-hundred points.

    Bob Swerski: Todd, one-hundred points is the record.

    Todd O'Conner: "Was".

    Superfans: Da Bulls!

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