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  1. #51
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    So, do you need a time machine to imagine Michael Jordan alone on the court against any NBA caliber team? I'm pretty sure you don't need a time machine to imagine Armstrong isolated against rivals. I mean, I think I saw a video of it the other day...

    But, right, unknowable...
    I'm fairly certain you're able to parse out the nuance of what I'm saying. It isn't a guy against a weak or strong team, but all 200 guys for themselves. I don't know what year the team era took over the grand tours or the sport as a whole, but even with a weak team a guy has a team.

  2. #52
    Senior Member rankin116's Avatar
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    This started talking about national champs and olympics, why did it devolve into talking about amateurs? I don't even think anyone but pro/1/2 fields should have cash prizes, so no I don't care about a $10.99 trophy. But I do think pros that help a teammate win nats should get a little flag or something put on their jersey for the year. That would be nice.

  3. #53
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    I think every Category should get paid out - you are paying to enter a race, so some of the fees should come back to you. There is a race next weekend in Central Park - paying out $8,500 to the P/1/2/3 categories, $1,100 to Cat 3 and $750 to Cat 4. Cat 5 only gets medals. I think it's a decent amount of cash to win something that you enjoy to do, that's not your primary source of income. I like riding, and would love to podium and take home a few hundred bucks one time.

  4. #54
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    I think everyone in all races should receive ponies.

    Even people who thought about racing, or want to, but just haven't made it out yet.

    Ponies for everyone!!!!11
    cat 1.

    blog

  5. #55
    Senior Member himespau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rankin116 View Post
    This started talking about national champs and olympics, why did it devolve into talking about amateurs? ... I do think pros that help a teammate win nats should get a little flag or something put on their jersey for the year. That would be nice.
    Maybe some sort of staticly stuck thing that they could remove when their year is up. That way they don't have to shell out for a brand new jersey. Or maybe I'm the only cheap one who thinks that way.
    Punctuation is important. It's the difference between "I helped my uncle, Jack, off a horse" and "I helped my uncle Jack off a horse"


  6. #56
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
    We can reward teammembers any way we want. We can give them all trophies and jerseys and money. We can mention them in race introductions. Sure. But the dude who crosses the line first will always be the rider most valued. You can fill a Tour de France team with Hinicapies and you'll never get that team the GC win. You can take one Lance Armstrong (juiced version), give him no teammates whatsoever, and he'd still be a favorite to win. That truth dictates the actual rewards and recognition, not any particular participation/recognition system of rewards.
    I agree with this. The guy who wins the race is the national champion. Without question. I just think it sells the sport short to say it wasn't a team effort.
    Yes, if Ted King had somehow won nationals as the lone rider for Cannonwhale (1980s reference) this year, he would have done it without a team. (Forgetting, for the moment, the idea of a combine with other single riders.) And therefore, he would have to share the glory with no one. And it's certainly possible to win with almost no team. Timmy Duggan in 2012 is a good example. It was just he and King riding in the Liquigas colors that year. If at some point in that race Ted King's efforts helped ensure victory for Duggan, then it was a team effort. No matter how small the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by rankin116 View Post
    This started talking about national champs and olympics, why did it devolve into talking about amateurs? I don't even think anyone but pro/1/2 fields should have cash prizes, so no I don't care about a $10.99 trophy. But I do think pros that help a teammate win nats should get a little flag or something put on their jersey for the year. That would be nice.
    That's about all I was getting at. Almost a sub-title for national championships, worlds, and Olympics in which there's a title held for a year or four.

  7. #57
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hack View Post
    I didn't know this was you^

    I imagine the task was equally if not more difficult when introducing some of the lesser accomplished domestic team members.
    I had to fill 50 seconds. It was a challenge to shorten intros such as Jens' and a bigger challenge to lengthen intros such as the entire Bissell Devo team. They had nothing on their resume`.

    I have my intros written out in advance. And I save them because I'll probably need them again in Colorado.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    I think every Category should get paid out - you are paying to enter a race, so some of the fees should come back to you. There is a race next weekend in Central Park - paying out $8,500 to the P/1/2/3 categories, $1,100 to Cat 3 and $750 to Cat 4. Cat 5 only gets medals. I think it's a decent amount of cash to win something that you enjoy to do, that's not your primary source of income. I like riding, and would love to podium and take home a few hundred bucks one time.
    You racing the Dave Jordan? He was the brother of one of my really good family friends who was actually trying to get me to come race it this year. I told them I would come out in 2015 as I don't think I would do too well with the P12's this season.

  9. #59
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Most every recreational endeavor costs money to participate in. There are inherent flaws in a model where folks get paid for racing. Huge purses for park races, in a city with quite a large number of drug positives, incidences of cheating, and general recklessness seems to me a prescription for continued difficulties. I'd be happy with the $10.99 trophy, a medal, or a jersey. Cat 5s opining that they want to get paid out a few hundred bucks for winning a race is ponderous.

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by rankin116 View Post
    This started talking about national champs and olympics, why did it devolve into talking about amateurs? I don't even think anyone but pro/1/2 fields should have cash prizes, so no I don't care about a $10.99 trophy. But I do think pros that help a teammate win nats should get a little flag or something put on their jersey for the year. That would be nice.
    I honestly don't really feel like I deserve a cash prize any more in a P12 race than I would in a masters race, or that I should have a cash prize now vs. when I was a 3 or a 4.

    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Most every recreational endeavor costs money to participate in. There are inherent flaws in a model where folks get paid for racing. Huge purses for park races, in a city with quite a large number of drug positives, incidences of cheating, and general recklessness seems to me a prescription for continued difficulties. I'd be happy with the $10.99 trophy, a medal, or a jersey. Cat 5s opining that they want to get paid out a few hundred bucks for winning a race is ponderous.
    my kids couldn't care less about any cash I win racing, but when I bring home a medal, i'm a superhero. if I brought home a trophy, they might actually start listening to me!

  11. #61
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    A bunch of years ago, in order to do a particular early morning series, my son needed to sleep over someone's house. Since I felt bad about it I have him my prize money throughout the series. He got a pretty good chunk of change.

  12. #62
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    Most every recreational endeavor costs money to participate in. There are inherent flaws in a model where folks get paid for racing. Huge purses for park races, in a city with quite a large number of drug positives, incidences of cheating, and general recklessness seems to me a prescription for continued difficulties. I'd be happy with the $10.99 trophy, a medal, or a jersey. Cat 5s opining that they want to get paid out a few hundred bucks for winning a race is ponderous.
    Its to cover our medical expenses.

  13. #63
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    What's the problem here.

    If I had to base my opinion on my abilities on my results, my opinion wouldn't be nearly as high.

    twitter.com/ygduf
    strava.com/athletes/ygduf

  14. #64
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
    I had to fill 50 seconds. It was a challenge to shorten intros such as Jens' and a bigger challenge to lengthen intros such as the entire Bissell Devo team. They had nothing on their resume`.

    I have my intros written out in advance. And I save them because I'll probably need them again in Colorado.
    "winner of multiple Tuesday night world championships, regular participant on his shop ride, and here to support [insert other domestic pro], we have so and so..."

    Somewhere during the Amgen, I did see Tom Boonen referred to as a stage x winner of the 2010 Amgen (or whatever year it was), but nothing else from his cycling history. I can't imagine he'd have anything from the Tour of California as one of his personal race highlights.

  15. #65
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I think this is a great question, Jamie. I like the idea of teammates having a small icon on their kit, like a striped shield or something with the date in it.

    Team tactics most certainly play a part in pro criteriums. Just watch Bissell or UHC chop their way to victory.

  16. #66
    Senior Member ColnagoC40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    Because it's not a team sport.
    Once you were selected to ride in pro team, became part of the team and worked with the team, you will understand that pro cycling is totally a "Team" sport.

    Unless I have missed something in the English dictionary, defining the word "Team"

  17. #67
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hack View Post
    Somewhere during the Amgen, I did see Tom Boonen referred to as a stage x winner of the 2010 Amgen (or whatever year it was), but nothing else from his cycling history. I can't imagine he'd have anything from the Tour of California as one of his personal race highlights.
    Getting far afield from the OP's stupid rant, but here are my notes from the Folsom TT for Boonen.
    I think all I said was "Ladies and Gentlemen, it's Tom Boonen!!" and the crowd filled the other 57 seconds with cheering. Less is more.

    #21 Tom Boonen
    age 33 Mol Belgium
    4x winner of Paris Roubaix

    3x Winner of Tour of Flanders

    multiple stage winner in all three Grand Tours

    2005 World Champion

    TRIVIA: 2x World Champion. Road and….. TTT in 2012

    TRIVIA - Has ridden for just two teams: QuickStep and USPostal


    So far in 2014. Winning Kurne Brussels Kurne
 7th at Flanders
 10th at Roubaix
 2nd overall, the sprinters jersey, AND 2 stages at Tour of Qatar.



    Thus far this year, he has 5782.1 kilometers of racing According to procyclingstats.com




    And talking about what constitutes a TEAM and who gets a piece of the trophy...
    Even the NFL practice squad players get a Super Bowl ring.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    Next time the receptionist at Oracle has to step in for Larry Ellison, let us know. Your analogy compared apples to fire trucks because they both are red. Businesses and bike racing have only the most superficial similarities.

    And calling something asinine drivel isn't exactly overwhelming us with a cogent rebuttal. You are glue and I am rubber; consider taking your own advice. Defending your analogy does not consist of trotting out your Thesaurus to call something names.


    The comparison dealt with a leader receiving credit for doing what a leader does. That I have to break that down and explain it to you says enough on its own.

    Your asinine comment was just that. It wasn't a rebuttal, it was just you regurgitating vitriol because you had nothing else to contribute. Work on it.

  19. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    You think that's the only glory available at bike race?
    Are you serious?

    You can take whatever glory you need to take to make you feel like you're doing something worthwhile. At the end of the day, the only glory is the one bestowed to the guy that crossed the line first. That's why we have "winners". That's why we have "titles".

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by EventServices View Post
    I


    So following this example, none of the NFL linemen should get a Super Bowl ring because they didn't experience the individual glory of scoring a touchdown. I know that's not exactly what you meant, but it's a pretty accurate parallel. Cycling is full of riders who can't win a race, but football is full of players who can't throw, catch, or run.

    No, your example perfectly makes my point. Those players get the ring because it is a team sport.

    Cycling isn't so they don't. That's why cycling isn't a team sport in that vein, it's an individual sport. My point all along.

  21. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    Exactly this. We reward bike races the way we do because that's historically how we've done it. At some point, people like needmoreair start to assume that things are the way they are because that's how they work organically, and that's when electrons start getting wasted moving hot air from one node on the network to all the others. But bike racing isn't organic.

    Yeah, silly me, thinking a RACE is about something other than the fastest person getting across the line first. As if bike racing is the only sport utilizing such a "non-organic" system of rewarding the first person to finish the glory.

    How crazy we humans have been throughout history.

  22. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by rankin116 View Post
    This started talking about national champs and olympics, why did it devolve into talking about amateurs? I don't even think anyone but pro/1/2 fields should have cash prizes, so no I don't care about a $10.99 trophy. But I do think pros that help a teammate win nats should get a little flag or something put on their jersey for the year. That would be nice.
    Why?! If half the peloton has it then what's the point? It loses all value.

    A teammate that doesn't win nats is NOT the winner. This is a ridiculously simple concept and I'm having a really hard time figuring out how anyone can think that a person that does NOT win a race should be rewarded in the same vein as someone that does.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by ColnagoC40 View Post
    Once you were selected to ride in pro team, became part of the team and worked with the team, you will understand that pro cycling is totally a "Team" sport.

    Unless I have missed something in the English dictionary, defining the word "Team"
    No, apparently you just missed the definition of the word "winner" and how it's used in the context of bike racing.

    But let me know the next time the entire team steps on to the podium after winning the weekend race/NRC race/Giro stage, etc.

  24. #74
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    Yeah, silly me, thinking a RACE is about something other than the fastest person getting across the line first.
    The rider crossing the line first did it in the least amount of time, but that does not make him/her the fastest person. The winner may have had the best team working to put him in a better position than the fastest person.

    I know this might be a bit deep for you.

  25. #75
    Senior Member ColnagoC40's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by needmoreair View Post
    No, apparently you just missed the definition of the word "winner" and how it's used in the context of bike racing.

    But let me know the next time the entire team steps on to the podium after winning the weekend race/NRC race/Giro stage, etc.
    Really?


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