Taiko

All sports are about winning PERIOD. Deemphasizing winning in any sport is not going to attract many new participants. There has to be a middle ground that allows for healthy competition while developing smart and safe racing habits. In my opinion (from an outsider's perspective) the current formula does not meet this criteria. It may also be one of the reasons why the sport is having a difficult time drawing new participants.

grolby

Boy howdy are you failing to understand the point. USAC could choose to disallow publishing results for Cat 5 races. If they did, you might actually have a point. But they don't, and they won't. Instead they simply make wins irrelevant to the 5 -> 4 upgrade. That's the very definition of a middle ground: you can try and race for the win, but you don't need to win in order to advance to the next category. As for your contention that this is discouraging to new participants, that's just coo-coo for cocoa puffs.

gsteinb

NJ promoters are complaining about late reg. In particular guys who always do all the races and register at the zero hour. Presumably that guy I race against every weekend imagines I don't understand that he'll be there this weekend as well, and oh boy oh boy will my head be ****ed when I wake up saturday morning and see his name on the list.

I proposed they close reg a week out and eliminate day of. That'll get guys off their asses.

Creatre

I thought they were about having fun?

lsberrios1 

I have seriously taken to the rule of "cat 5 races are not for winning". If it wasn't for that I would have won at least 7 of my last 9 races.

Taiko

Fun is only allowed in this category:

carpediemracing 

There are a lot of compelling reasons for competing other than winning. A sizable portion of racers do race to try and win, but the majority of them will never win a race. I try to win when I can, other times I understand that I'm not even in the running and I have fun some other way. I've gone into races thinking "Okay, today I want to work on 1 minute efforts" or "I want to help Chris try to win the sprint" or "I want to do a leadout for anyone that wants to follow me".

furiousferret

Right, the rules are set up that way but in practice everything takes a backseat to winning. No one is out there to just get race credit and finish in the pack, once its called a race people are going to take some risks. Its been covered in this forum many times, some think the model is good others think its lacking.

Wylde06

Im more than happy to finish in the pack.

hack

This is very true. There are many other little races within the race and they can be formal (e.g., primes) or the can be personal/team goals (e.g., lead out a teammate).

This can even be extrapolated to the pro levels where there are other things the race for within a larger race. In the Tour, Sagan isn't going to win every race, but he's likely gunning for the mid-race sprints to collect points. So while he's not winning, he is racing hard.

gsteinb

Your definition of winning is far too narrow. My team is built with guys who predominantly have no interest or ability to win a race. Their collective role, over the last 20 years, has been to work for a selection of guys who can win with regularity.

Then look at a variety of athletic endeavors where one is seeking to improve ones placing or time. Running. Fodos. Triathlons. How many people actually win? People have other reasons for toeing the line. On the highest levels of cycling there are a very select few people who can win. The job of others is to not win. It's to support. It's to do something other than try to win.

While there may be flaws for the US category system it's hoped that it will instill skills and knowledge that will increase safety as races get faster and more aggressive because there's more on the line in winning and losing. If you're a 5 learning how to navigate the scrum that's a field sprint, and you don't actually cross the line first it would be foolish to look at that as a failure.

Taiko

I'm referring to a Cat 5 races not the highest level of the sport; the complete opposite. You should not expect the Cat 5 racer, who is more likely not on a team, to do pulling work for the benefit of a more experience Cat 4. You are correct not every individual is going to win, but it is every team's goal to win and not every Cat 5 is on a team. The majority are in it to win on their own. There needs to be a fair manner of allowing Cat 5 to compete and be rewarded for their efforts. Playing the fool to faster Cat 4s is not the answer as the current system is set up. To say that most people do sports with the knowledge that they are not going to win goes against everything that a sport or race is; it's a competition not a sewing circle.

gsteinb

If you think the majority of guys start to race to win you're wrong. They start for exercise, for fun, to get out of the house. For the vast majority of guys winning is something that is never going to happen.

I'm not even sure what you're talking about regarding fives doing pulling work for fours. Do you?

grolby

I suggest a different order of operations than the one you are currently following. First, go and do some races (or at least observe some races), THEN form opinions. You clearly don't have a very well-formed idea of what Category 5 races are like, let alone who is participating in them.

Taiko

I take it that generalizations are the norm. I've been riding for years and have attended 7 races in S. Florida this year to support friends.

caloso

This.

jmikami

I find all this talk about the goal of a race is to win it as funny. I have been racing and winning more than my fair share for many many years, but winning is often not my goal at most races, even if I do. My race goals are usually more tactic/training/support based. I train to win, I race to learn how to race, enjoy time with my race friends, support teammates and to get ready for my A level races. 90% of my races are not A level races, with those the goal is to win or meet some race based/team based goal, but the rest of the races, winning really doesn't matter. And even in the A races, it is usually just a few riders who are really trying to win, as the rest don't have it as their A race or are supporting a teammate to win.

That doesn't mean I don't try to win other races, but I constantly have to remind myself during the race not to just save energy for the finish and meet the goal at hand. I think there is a very small percentage of riders who go into the race with the pure goal of winning every race. Many, as has already been said, don't really have much of a shot and are here for fitness/social/team/other reasons. Many others just don't have it down as a top race and want to get something out of it such as pack riding, figuring out a course, sizing up others, race training, etc.

I am going to spend well over $500 on two race weekends traveling to races just to see the course and test myself, no goals to win what so ever. The goal is to prep myself for my A race so that when that comes I am prepared and have seen different competition from different areas as well as the course first hand. I could go on about this, but winning is not everything, even if it is the eventual outcome of the race.

Bike racing is often not about winning, even when you are winning.

Edit: I do fully admit that before I turned 30 ... it was pretty much all about winning every race I could, but I have moved on from that point of view. And even then I had days I didn't care.

furiousferret

Great post.

I do think perspectives differ based on where people are in their career. For someone like yourself who has had some success its going to vary from a guy like me who is new to the sport. I do think every racer should experience a victory at least once. While I'm being completely honest, there is a feeling that at least one win validates a place in the sport. Both from inside the peleton and in my social circle. I realize its silly to care what others think about my results, but I do.

In the 5's as a solo racer my main goals are to do the best I can, since I have no teammates, that means solo results. In the few races I've done, most I've been off the back. A few times due to bad luck, others to a failed winning move, but realistically I'm just not very good. If I get dropped to after making what I think is an attempt to win, I'm ok with it. If it is other reasons, I don't accept it. Realistically, for me winning is a long shot, with my power numbers others racers have to do things to set me up, and I have to be smart enough to see those actions.

shovelhd

+1. What I said was that learning about racing and your strengths and weaknesses is more important than results in your first ten races. Is that clear enough?

shovelhd

I see. You're awfully opinionated for someone who has never pinned on a number. I suggest that you try racing next year and base your opinions on actual experiences.

furiousferret

My point earlier @Taiko was that racers tend to downplay whatever goes on from the Category racers below them. Its not everyone, but its out there.

As for learning about my strengths and weaknesses, I do at least one competitive group ride a week just to stay sharp. I sit in, I try stuff out, but mostly I just hang on for dear life. Despite people opinions that it wasn't what a coach was for, I hired one locally just so he could go over basic skills and teach me the intricacies of racing. Its helped tremendously. I can't even equate what that has been worth. 20 races? I just know I wasn't close to figuring things out and it would have been very possible I would have walked away just thinking I'm not at the level to bike race.

I'm not saying I can handle my bike as good as a Tour rider...unless we are counting Chris Froome or Andy Schleck then maybe I am

I don't want you to get the impression that I just ride on a trainer for 10 hours a week then hope for the best when I toe the line, because that's not the case. I know what I can and can't do out there. I've done all the work before the race starts to be a safe and tactically smart racer, not figure things out during the race. It would help if my power and ftp were a bit higher, but that will hopefully come with time. There are still things I need to work on, but I do work on them. Some 5's have no clue, and some will continue to have no clue into the 4's.

carpediemracing 

haha! Awesome.

Ygduf

I love that tall thin guys are terrible bike handlers when they crash, but everyone else isn't?

I mean, **** Cavendish initiated contact on purpose and then crashed. He knew it was coming and couldn't handle it.