grolby

The problem is that the ship may have sailed on the club system providing an organized and instructive environment for new racers. This may partly be because of the shift from most new racers being juniors to most being adults who don't want to be told what to do. I don't know. But few clubs are as focused on development anymore, and even where they are, the rides everyone is going to tell you about are the hammerfests. If there's to be a greater emphasis on clubs, there are institutional ways of encouraging that, but they actually have to happen.

himespau 

Sounds like some places have a great structure in place for training new racers.

hack

To be fair, we also have the 4/5 races and some non-mentored races where guys can get blown out the back of the group before the first turn and pulled 5-minutes later. So, while we do have some great 5's races, there are some that could turn guys off, too. It'd be great it the flyer advertised the race as a "great learning opportunity" or something like that. A cat 5 technical/climbing course may not be an ideal first race course, while a flat business park course may be a great first race opportunity. Problem is, a lot of 5s won't know this.

needmoreair

Exactly.

Where have all the steady weekend social rides gone? Strava has killed them.

Can't seem to find a ride that doesn't devolve into half the group sprinting up a hill or drilling a segment. Used to be the occasional pick up for a city limit sign. Now it's hold on for dear life on every uphill.

Ah, the good ole days.

Ygduf

They aren't happening, or no one is inviting you to them?

needmoreair

I like how you turned my agreement with this statement:

into an unwarranted dig. Keeping it classy.

gerundium

Dutch cycling union has instituted that you can't get a racing license unless you are affiliated with a licensed club. This has some definitive downfalls as well but at least you encourage the development role that clubs / teams should play to new racers. I think completely excluding unaffiliated racers is not the way to go but development should be started from the clubs. These are the people you ride with a lot and they can spot some mistakes you make in training etc. As a new racer myself getting tips from my team/club in terms of cornering and such has been invaluable. We also do organized training for race craft, like how to ride proper echelons etc and before the major 'classics' we'll do wheel changes and such.

Learning in this way is way more comprehensive than a 1 hour clinic can ever be.

Ygduf

You misquoted me, but one, I disagree with the statement that there are not social rides. Two, I disagree with the sentiment that Strava has anything to do with your perceived lack of social rides, primarily because I know of plenty. Three, it's an honest question given 1 and 2.

needmoreair

No, I certainly did not misquote you. That quote is yours exactly.

I simply added on to my agreement of your quote with other sentiments. That was denoted by a new line/paragraph, but apparently you needed an entirely new post to prevent the confusion.

And now, here we are. It's almost comical watching your responses. It certainly gives me a smile how hard you try to read into things.

furiousferret

I'm going to show up to Spectrum, totally uninvited.

Ygduf

I wouldn't call spectrum a social ride. But if you are down here looking for some, let me know. There's a few that meet regularly, and many others that are just called a day or two in advance.

carpediemracing 

In the US the old system was such that all clubs had to promote a race annually. Riders could ride unattached but promoters generally charged an "unattached" fee. The assumption was that if you were unattached you weren't contributing to promoting races and therefore you got dinged for the extra money. The fee was substantial at some races.

The side benefit was that there was an assumption that a club fostered better racing habits.

Nowadays it's more about whether a racer pre-registers or not. Generally speaking it's easier on the promoter if someone pre-registers.

And clubs are generally very loosely organized. It may be that club members see each other mainly at races, rarely on training rides.

carpediemracing 

In a continuation of the thought (but not a response directly to any post), with a huge increase in emphasis on training with the advent first of the heart rate monitor and then the power meter, it's become less about learning how to race and more about "following a training schedule". As far back as the early-mid 90s there were racers that were skipping group rides so that they could "follow their training schedule", i.e. target heart rates and such. This has led to a deterioration in riding and racing skills since a lot of riders don't train regularly in groups.

The Cat 5 designation is useful in separating the new racers from the experienced ones. It's like if you threw in a normal driver (like me) into an F1 race. Yes, I know the basics of steering, braking, and accelerating, but compared to the skill set of an accomplished F1 driver I'd be a danger to everyone else on the track (and to myself as well).

As a promoter I've been asked by very level headed rides to please keep the 5s out of the Masters races. It gets really dangerous.

As far as what it takes to make things safer… yes I've run (mandatory) clinics before Cat 5 races, so that the Cat 5s are forced to get some kind of structured learning in before they line up. There's the "chalk talk" or reading and then the actual clinic on race day. Although very basic it seems to help.

Now I'm using the Tuesday Night Races (I'm not affiliated with the promoters in any way) to try and teach the others about racing. Although initially approached by teammates, I've had others ask me for advice as well. One of my teammates told me that the only thing he knows about racing is that he should be "at the front". So he diligently went to the front whenever he could.

As far as the rest of the rest of the racers it was pretty messy the first week. There was a massive bobble in the first turn (guys went off the course), there were repeated bobbles in all the corners, my teammates rode hard to chase down my teammates, etc. It was a mess. From three weeks ago to even two weeks ago there was a huge improvement in the cornering, in sheltering from the typically substantial wind (especially exiting certain corners), and some of the basic tactics.

To address my teammates' questions, but to share it with everyone racing there (because everyone should learn how to race, not just my teammates) I wrote a general blog post followed by a few that hit each of the main points in the general post. General, point 1, point 2, point 3, point 4.

Instead of complaining about lack of action, I've done what I can to address the problem. I have contacted USAC about clinic requirements etc but never get a response. In the meantime I'll continue my guerrilla actions.

grolby

I don't agree that those rides are all gone, or that Strava has killed them - this trend predates Strava, which I would contend is an effect, not a cause, of a culture shift. What's happening is that people coming into the sport are less likely to even look for these rides, and there's not as much ability to really guide people to the club rides and mentorship that they need. Everyone wants to know when and where the hammerfest ride is. It's fitness, fitness, uber alles. It's easy to understand what's happening, I don't go to a lot of these rides, either. So I'm not helping much.

It's not hopeless, though, there are still well-structured, beginner-friendly rides around. In my neck of the woods, Green Line Velo puts on a weekly group ride where members of the team lead groups from fast, down through intermediate, moderate and leisure. And they have actual, experienced racers leading the slower group - they don't all jump on the fast ride. The reason this is rare is that it takes discipline and some willingness to ride slower and meet new people from time to time. It can be hard to get roadies to do that. But I'm not sure right now if it's smart for USAC to keep hanging their hat on the hope that this kind of experience will regain enough popularity to remain as the primary source of skills training for new racers.

Ygduf

as measured by?

gsteinb

I don't train in groups. Hell, I barely ride outside.

carpediemracing 

I look at the Cat 3-4 races and there's a pretty big gap between the 4s and 3s. Also I was appalled by the lack of knowledge in the 5s and 4s. I did a B race a few years back (I'd ridden 5 hours to pick up a vehicle and the promoter told me I should do the B race since I was there anyway). I had an initial reintroduction to new racers then, the braking, the swerving, the big gaps, etc.

However in the B races on Tuesdays it's been more than that. A significant number of riders didn't know to follow the wheel in front of them in a corner, resulting in 5 different lines and a lot of bobbling. I understand bobbling due to some unexpected thing but for riders literally not know that they shouldn't follow their own line? That was a bit much for me. I even heard one guy tell another to "follow the curb line" in the corner. The tone was a scolding one, not even a friendly one.

I think that new racers' grasp of the basics, at least here in this area, are pretty weak. It may be different in other areas, like the West Coast, with the Early Bird series, Oregon, etc. But around here, in CT? Not very good.

The fact that there was such a substantial improvement in the field dynamics in literally one week means that there is a lack of information out there. All these riders are extremely fit - there's no way I could race against them if they were racing smart, most of them are so strong (I did one team ride this year and I was one of the first to get shelled, and the ride was basically a Cat 3-4-5 ride). I've gotten feedback from other teams' riders, not just my own teammates. All of them are starving for knowledge, and that 4 point series of posts really helped them understand some of the general ideas of racing in a field. One guy, not a teammate, told me that he felt really dumb for not realizing certain things. He's an aerodynamics engineer yet he never really thought about how wind affects one's ideal field position. Now he's much better about that.

Of course just because I offer some advice doesn't mean it's taken or even that it's right. A teammate of mine fell over the weekend and skinned all his finger tips. Long finger gloves? Nope, and anyone that's been on BF for any amount of time knows that this is something I recommend for all racers, all the time. One of my posts has someone saying that my advice for using pins is not great, spray adhesive is better. I didn't realize that USAC took the word "pins" out of the rule book - now your number simply has to be "secured" at the four corners (I suppose for the magnets and similar type ideas). My goal is to present the simplest, most reliable way of approaching racing, and for me, after trying all sorts of number attaching ideas, pins works best for me. It doesn't mean it's the best for everyone else. For me, however, it's the simplest, most reliable way of securing my number to my jersey.

carpediemracing 

I should have put "new" in front of the word "riders" in that earlier sentence.

Ygduf

I'm not disagreeing with you. Though I do think it's mostly generation gap and selective memory, that's not my current point. My only question was "what's your measurement?" to know that it was better "back when" or if any changes to cat 5 structure make improvements. What's the metric?

carpediemracing 

Good question. I look at how racers ride in a group, primarily in corners. Do they swing out before they turn in? Do they follow the group rather than their own line? If they know how to do a pace line of sorts (meaning if they're pulling they know how to pull off). I see if they have a basic grasp of tactics, like not chasing a teammate, not pulling relentlessly when it's unnecessary.

Also if there's anything really weird with a rider - saddle is way too high, missing (seriously, there was a guy that used to ride in the NY area that insisted that riding without a saddle or seat post was beneficial), bizarre bar or saddle angle, etc - it's usually because the rider rides by themselves all the time. In a group ride, even if it's not a club ride, they'd probably get feedback questioning the bizarro stuff.

Basically as a rider gets more fluent they become less noticeable in a field. The weird ones stand out because they do unusual stuff, stuff you don't expect.

Someone said to me "school of fish" yesterday. In a school of fish the one going the wrong way stands out. A skilled group rider won't seem out of place. The ones that disrupt the rhythm are usually doing something wrong.

globecanvas

That's an impressively thorough answer, as usual, but I think Yg's question was how do you know beginner pack skills are worse now than in the past.

I wasn't a bike racer in the past, so I have no personal basis for comparison, but I am naturally skeptical of the "good old days" effect.

mattm

When fields are combined like that, having a cat 5 just slows down the upgrade process - which is a good thing. It forces you to take more time in learning how to race, before you get to the 3's.

When I was a 5, most of our crit fields were 4/5's combined, and the races seemed the same to me, just bigger (not faster).

mattm

Yes - as a 5 I had similar experiences: placing in the teens in large 4/5 fields, but losing to a bunch of 4's. A result I was proud of, and still am, since it was my first real/big crit. 75 starters, only ~25 finishers!

Since you've done at least 10 mass starts as a 4, you've by definition been racing longer, and are therefore (hopefully) smarter and (hopefully) stronger than cat 5's.

I didn't win **** as a 5, only one once as a 4. More wins as a 3. Part of that is just more experience, the other part was just training more and getting stronger.

The 5's aren't about winning - and come to think about it neither are the 4's really; both are just practice as you move up. Which is not the say the 3's is "serious business", but you'll have tougher competition there.

mattm

Luckily I never had to deal with that... but if you think about it, getting pulled is a learning experience - it means you need to train more/better!

I would imagine if guys are getting pulled in 4/5's races, they'd get pulled in 5's races anyway.

Caad08

Exactly, Cat 5's have no idea what they're doing.