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  1. #26
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    nice.

    it's the difference between DA and ultegra and DA SRM and FSA SRM. everything else is the same.

  2. #27
    Powered by Di2 06SpiceRed's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    well that's ****ing deflating
    Well considering the debate about weight in this case is negligible....why dont you guys argue about who spent more on the bike given the group? Why not make the case that someones wallet is that much lighter for a 1/4lb difference. I know a whole bunch of guys over at WW that are willing to swing their junk at that.
    Oh the usual...some carbon fiber, some deep wheels, some electronic shifting, and not enough money.

  3. #28
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    So make it 2.5 lbs, and you're at 36 seconds, yeah? Assuming that math works that way, which maybe it doesn't. Geez, I couldn't even make a good case that my 18.5 lb race bike is a reasonable excuse for climbing as badly as I do. Damn.

  4. #29
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    The way I do it is assume steep enough that wind is fairly negligible, so time saved is roughly proportional to weight saved.
    If total weight = 170, 1/4 pound is 1/680 of the weight. So 3600s/680 = 5 seconds. A tad less accounting for wind.

  5. #30
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 06SpiceRed View Post
    Well considering the debate about weight in this case is negligible.......
    I am not sure the weight argument is not really so much about weight as it is about advantage. All things being equal... any inequality is an advantage. There is no magic weight difference, or training skill, or drug enhancement that wins the race. But it all adds up. Special training, special attention to the special bicycle, weight controlled and limited by the gram.

    In the end... all things being equal (and they never are)... its the heart and drive of the athlete that makes the difference.

  6. #31
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    well that's ****ing deflating
    I quit wearing base layers on hillclimbs. those things, soaked in sweat, can weigh like 3/4 of a lb.

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  7. #32
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    The way I do it is assume steep enough that wind is fairly negligible, so time saved is roughly proportional to weight saved.
    If total weight = 170, 1/4 pound is 1/680 of the weight. So 3600s/680 = 5 seconds. A tad less accounting for wind.
    this is how I do it for my guestimates. also, I should go climb whiteface. I could totally top-10 that strava segment and feel good about myself

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  8. #33
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    I quit wearing base layers on hillclimbs. those things, soaked in sweat, can weigh like 3/4 of a lb.
    I have yet to see a compelling reason to wear a base layer in any warm weather. Wicking is great, and that's what my jersey does. A base layer is going to slow the transfer of sweat to the moving air external to my clothes. The extra layer is going to add insulation, and the sweat-soaking is going to prevent any chance of wind/skin contact through most of the layer. It just makes zero sense to me. I wear a tight jersey, so sweat is immediately wicked into the fabric, the knits are advanced enough to maximize exterior surface area, while minimizing the area contacting my skin on the interior. I just don't see how another layer of fabric improves that.

    Snake oil.

  9. #34
    Killing Rabbits
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    Quantum tunneling via nanoparticles, duh.

  10. #35
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I have yet to see a compelling reason to wear a base layer in any warm weather. Wicking is great, and that's what my jersey does. A base layer is going to slow the transfer of sweat to the moving air external to my clothes. The extra layer is going to add insulation, and the sweat-soaking is going to prevent any chance of wind/skin contact through most of the layer. It just makes zero sense to me. I wear a tight jersey, so sweat is immediately wicked into the fabric, the knits are advanced enough to maximize exterior surface area, while minimizing the area contacting my skin on the interior. I just don't see how another layer of fabric improves that.

    Snake oil.
    for extra long rides I will wear under armor longsleeve upf baselayers. I feel like the white sleeves do help in harsh sun/heat.

    otherwise I just wore them because I started out wearing them and prefered the feel to bib straps/jersey. And the possibility of saving road rash in my crashes (which always seemed to work on my shoulders vs. the just-bibs hip rashes I had).

    ymmv

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  11. #36
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
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    Yeah, base layer in warm weather = wet and gross.

  12. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    One bike weights 1/4 pound more than the other. How much of a difference does it make over an hour going up hill?
    depends a bit on your weight, your bike's weight, and your expected power, but over here for a 5+ mile climb at 8+% (@ a 30' pace), 1# = just under 10" saved.

    you didn't say how long your climb is (guessing ~8 miles from the 3500' gain @ 8.5%). don't know what you weigh or your power, but i'll bet that 1/4# for the climb you describe is ~4-5".

    it either means nothing or a great deal, depending on your goals.

    (side note, 1 extra watt is a little over 5" saved on that 30' effort--i'd guess about 8-10" saved on yours.)

    this assumes aerodynamics between gear choices do not change.

    how much do you weigh? is the grade consistent?

  13. #38
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    for extra long rides I will wear under armor longsleeve upf baselayers. I feel like the white sleeves do help in harsh sun/heat.

    otherwise I just wore them because I started out wearing them and prefered the feel to bib straps/jersey. And the possibility of saving road rash in my crashes (which always seemed to work on my shoulders vs. the just-bibs hip rashes I had).

    ymmv
    Yeah, I wear arm coolers much of the time. I'm not convinced they help with cooling, but I am convinced that they don't make me hotter (shade plus wicking at least keeps up with heat retention from insulation). I'm positive they help with UV protection though.

    Base layer as tradition, I can see, but it just goes into one of the many traditions that don't make sense to me.

    Actually, to go completely 41 with this thread again, I think that hairy legs are cooler than shaved because of the heat-sink properties of hair and the fact that it increases surface area for evaporation. Back when I shaved, I always felt a lot more sweaty right after I shaved off all the hair. I do keep the leg hairs shorter though, so they don't mat down in sweat.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Looigi's Avatar
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    How'd this turn into a baselayer discussion? Not complaining, and I'll add that in the hot races this year, ATOC, some of the CDDauphine, etc I saw not a single baselayer on a rider among the many (majority at some points) riding with jerseys unzipped.
    Ride more. Fret less.

  15. #40
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Looigi View Post
    How'd this turn into a baselayer discussion? Not complaining, and I'll add that in the hot races this year, ATOC, some of the CDDauphine, etc I saw not a single baselayer on a rider among the many (majority at some points) riding with jerseys unzipped.
    217


    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    I quit wearing base layers on hillclimbs. those things, soaked in sweat, can weigh like 3/4 of a lb.

    wet base layer = weight

  16. #41
    Senior Member Duane Behrens's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    One bike weights 1/4 pound more than the other. How much of a difference does it make over an hour going up hill?
    All else being equal, the train will arrive in Denver at 3:45. Glad I could help.
    The world is full of kind people. If you can't find one - BE one.

  17. #42
    Senior Member Homebrew01's Avatar
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    For every 217 grams you will save 33 seconds over 41 minutes.
    Bikes: Old steel race bikes, old Cannondale race bikes, less old Cannondale race bike, crappy old mtn bike

  18. #43
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    Everyone knows that being lighter makes you faster..... It's why I make sure to pisss myself before I start any longer sustained climb. Whatever it takes to get to the top faster.

  19. #44
    Senior Member topflightpro's Avatar
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    Base layers? I barely have a jersey on when it's hot out. The only reason I don't unzip it completely is that it starts moving around too much when unzipped - I usually have a third bottle back there.

    And I'll be dripping so much sweat, I end up loosing way more than a quarter pound. In fact, I've lost as much as 5 pounds from sweating over the course of a five hour ride. (Yes, I know this is bad, but I drink as much as I can during and after the ride.)

  20. #45
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Homebrew01 View Post
    For every 217 grams you will save 33 seconds over 41 minutes.
    win

  21. #46
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    1/4 pound = 20 seconds over the 8 miles. that's enough to make a difference in setting a PR

  22. #47
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    I could totally top-10 that strava segment and feel good about myself
    :/ I offer a place to stay at my house to just about anyone. You..you though. You're dead to me.

  23. #48
    Arrogant Roadie Punk save10's Avatar
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    Good reason to wear a base layer

    here is the greatest base-layer thread ever. poor Uww Emm Dee

  24. #49
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    Wouldn't a wet base layer simply be a net-zero gain of weight? The moisture is from sweating so the body already had it. Even if it's from dumping water on yourself you were carrying the water in the bottle.

    Of course if there are rabid fans hurling buckets of water on riders then that's a different story.

    Having said that I only own winter type base layers (long sleeve). I don't wear one in the summer.

    I'm pretty sure that I wouldn't be able to tell the difference of 1/2 pound on my bike, and any time savings/loss in my realm of riding would be in the margin of error in terms of me trying to ride hard. 500 feet vertical per hour is about what I do in training. Weight, not significant. I do see a substantial gain/loss in pace if the wind is really strong one way or another.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  25. #50
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Wouldn't a wet base layer simply be a net-zero gain of weight? The moisture is from sweating so the body already had it. Even if it's from dumping water on yourself you were carrying the water in the bottle.
    Well, the base layer is going to impede evaporation and runoff. If it was going straight to the jersey either it would be evaporating sooner, or the jersey would saturate faster than base layer + jersey, and sweat would start dripping sooner. So, while you did have it in you, once it's not, the base layer keeps it with you longer.

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