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Old 07-03-14, 11:59 AM   #26
carpediemracing
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
i'm of the opinion that rotating weight, on a bike, makes no difference vs non-rotating weight. there eIS a difference, but it is so incredibly minor as to be inconsequential--for me. not all feel the same.
For me there's a substantial difference in rotating weight, although I can't prove it using numbers. Basically if I have heavier wheels I don't have the same jump and I burn a lot of matches doing my whole tail gunning thing. In 2010, at my peak fitness, I didn't finish any races with my heavier but pretty aero Jet 6/9 set up, and in fact I did better in the same Tues races with the non-aero Bastognes/Ardennes (same tires, same hubs, same spokes). With lighter wheels I can accelerate more quickly. The faster my start speed, the less important rotating weight is, so starting a sprint at 35 mph means I'd want an aero wheel set, starting at 25 mph means a light one. From 25 mph my whole jump is used to get me up to speed. I haven't started a sprint at 35 mph in forever but if I started at that, then applied the jump and stuff, I think I'd be going a bit faster and therefore aero becomes significant. Nowadays it seems that my start speeds are lower therefore rotating weight is more important.

At some point I want to do some experiments regarding rotating weight or have someone who knows math/physics + cycling do some number crunching. Theoretical only gets so far, like the physicist that did some calculations regarding a particular NASCAR race. He figured that based on the curve etc of a particular track the max speed of the cars would be 165 mph. The actual speeds were 163-167 mph so he was pretty close. He also points out that the quickest 0-60 times for cars should be in the high 2 second mark, based on the assumption that it would be hard to get more than 1:1 coefficient of friction between tires and pavement. His assumptions fall short here and there and there's a lot of hoopla on how dumb he is but those making the calls aren't taking his assumptions into consideration (1:1 coefficient of friction, no aero factors involved; once you negate those assumptions then obviously his calculations go out the window, or you have to recalculate to get new values). Anyway theoretical is good but I want to see how weight affects acceleration at high wattages, where 50 or even 100w is not that significant in the scheme of things, meaning it'd be 5-10% of total, not 30% or something. At 1000-1200w 50w is close to the margin of error, i.e. statistically not significant. That's what I want to test.
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Old 07-03-14, 12:58 PM   #27
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Aluminum cogs? The big ones especially.

Have you optimized your pedals? Ti axle, esp for the short event. I think the Look hardware is steel, just soft. There are ti bolts out there for Looks. Alum spacers if they're not already, I don't know what they are. If it were me I'd make my Aerolites work. About 70g per pair with cleats and hardware (they say 38g per side, that's about right), but it's the devil to set up, you have to drill into your shoes. In fact I still want to make my Aerolites work but it's such a pain.
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Old 07-03-14, 01:51 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
i've been shocked. when i got my first DEXA scan a few years back, what i thought was 10% BF was definitely not. really opening my eyes to where fat was hiding and what i could actually trim. at that point i thought there was nothing i could lose.

anyway, the whole discipline thing is a can of worms. there's a huge industry around selling people tricks to lose weight, but it comes down to resisting temptation. it is amazing how quickly one can undo so much hard work. for me, with slow and steady losses (e.g., an extra 30' of tempo a day + trying to resist that dessert at night)...that daily redux is something i could erase in a few minutes post-ride.
QFT- this was a big one when I was a multi-sport kid, thought I was pretty darn lean... numbers don't lie, and the majority of the weight-centric industry has grasped that it is easier to help people feel better about themselves than it is to help them fix the real problems.


I've heard of Recon cassettes shearing- but those were older ones, and used in an MTB context (yeah, don't do that)

I'd certainly use them myself without worry, but I think that my level of caring about this stuff is lower than yours.
Yes, the weight differences are NUTS- the first time I picked up a Recon cassette was a similar "WTH" sensation like the first time I picked up an 808 rim... doesn't seem like it should be possible.

Risk thresholds vary- I use Ultegra or Chorus everywhere, recently sold off my last carbon wheels, and alloy tubulars + Ultegra makes this stuff superfluous on my bikes. Mine won't break, but race bikes also weigh 16-17 lbs.

I'd say get on the narrow/wide bandwagon and do some testing. See if you can drop a chain, I didn't believe in Di2 when it first came out until a bike company that sponsors my team and is our main brand at the shop handed me a long-term loaner bike and said, "go ahead, try to make it mess up." I couldn't make it drop a chain, even when I legit tried- testing makes a believer out of me, and the narrow-wide stuff is similar for me.
Not having access to a clutch-style RD on the Di2 setup makes it a bit trickier- but I think it'd work for you pretty darn well. YMMV.
I'm just back from Bend, spent some time with a friend/ex-coworker who moved there a month or two ago. He's gone narrow-wide, scraped together all the parts, nothing fancy pretty well only the chainring and not a clutch style RD or anything else, using a XT double crankset (so not perfect chainline).... he hasn't dropped a chain yet, and he's a fast "DH-get-rowdy" kid.

Aerolites- worth looking into. Mercury/TriRig has gotten rights to use the patent (or something of the sort, it's legal at least), and they are claiming 35g per side, and they work with standard cleat mounting standards. Read the reviews, its frankly right up your alley on a project like this.

How about cables- are you using standard cables and housing? There are lighter weight options, some work better than others, but it'll free up a few grams.

Tyres- I assume you are running those fancy-euro-pro contis?

Bar tape- given you are going with a bullhorn setup (nice thinking, I was going to suggest this after thinking about the theme- it's pretty standard for British hill-climb bikes), what tape are you using, and what weight are you at?
For a bullhorn setup, you shouldn't need to wrap the center section of the bars- and since it is a short event, have you considered skateboard deck tape or similar? Weighs just about nothing.

To save the grams from the mounting hardware, just put the head unit in your jersey pocket/leg band?

how esoteric do you want to get?
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Old 07-03-14, 01:52 PM   #29
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you could

-remove bar tape and just go with a few pieces of electrical tape to hold any wiring in place
-lighter cages (i'm sure you though of that)
-consider taking the cover off your saddle (or an old one). I know some guys that took the cover off their old SLRs and then drilled the body for more weight savings. the cover doesnt really effect comfort and wont be a factor over a shorter race. i have this chinese carbon thing on my bike and its fine. Hylix Road Bike Carbon Saddle Seat Fit MTB Riding Ergonomics 91g Touple SL | eBay
-are you running clinchers? veloplugs are reported to be lighter than rim tape. I have them on one of oldest clincher sets....works fine
-i think some water bottles are lighter than others...you should look in to that
-finally my oakley half jackets are boat anchors compared to my smith pivlocks or no sunglasses at all
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Old 07-03-14, 02:05 PM   #30
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I hear ya regarding the DA9000 cassettes. Shimano could be handling it better. I didn't know Recon made 11 speed Shimano cassettes. I have a K-Edge braze-on if you need it.
i'd read about the recon cassettes in the past but always dismissed them. didn't know about the 11s until this morning when i searched. yeah, the da9000 cassette thing is a shame. i like the 6800 cassette, but for this (silly) case it is extra weight.

i have k-edge catchers on my road bike, but they work in concert with the FD (the front of the FD is curved to mate with the braze-on clamp). i'm not aware of k-edge making one of their single chain watchers (CX style) with a braze-on clamp--i think they all require a round tube. maybe i'm wrong. i could maybe rig up a curved washer. i'm less worried about tossing the chain to the inside, though. maybe that is a bad assumption.
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Old 07-03-14, 02:54 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
QFT- this was a big one when I was a multi-sport kid, thought I was pretty darn lean... numbers don't lie, and the majority of the weight-centric industry has grasped that it is easier to help people feel better about themselves than it is to help them fix the real problems.
dexa is also illuminating as it shows you were the fatty tissue resides.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
I've heard of Recon cassettes shearing- but those were older ones, and used in an MTB context (yeah, don't do that)

I'd certainly use them myself without worry, but I think that my level of caring about this stuff is lower than yours.
Yes, the weight differences are NUTS- the first time I picked up a Recon cassette was a similar "WTH" sensation like the first time I picked up an 808 rim... doesn't seem like it should be possible.

Risk thresholds vary- I use Ultegra or Chorus everywhere, recently sold off my last carbon wheels, and alloy tubulars + Ultegra makes this stuff superfluous on my bikes. Mine won't break, but race bikes also weigh 16-17 lbs.
it only needs to last 6 miles. seriously, though, if i get one it would only ever be used for a few timed hill climbs.


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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
I'd say get on the narrow/wide bandwagon and do some testing. See if you can drop a chain, I didn't believe in Di2 when it first came out until a bike company that sponsors my team and is our main brand at the shop handed me a long-term loaner bike and said, "go ahead, try to make it mess up." I couldn't make it drop a chain, even when I legit tried- testing makes a believer out of me, and the narrow-wide stuff is similar for me.
Not having access to a clutch-style RD on the Di2 setup makes it a bit trickier- but I think it'd work for you pretty darn well. YMMV.
I'm just back from Bend, spent some time with a friend/ex-coworker who moved there a month or two ago. He's gone narrow-wide, scraped together all the parts, nothing fancy pretty well only the chainring and not a clutch style RD or anything else, using a XT double crankset (so not perfect chainline).... he hasn't dropped a chain yet, and he's a fast "DH-get-rowdy" kid.
had a similar experience when i got on di2 in late 2010.

only question is i may have a few shifts under load, but all other parts, chain, etc. will be clean. could shear off a tooth, i guess, but it's not like the whole cassette would fail.

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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
Aerolites- worth looking into. Mercury/TriRig has gotten rights to use the patent (or something of the sort, it's legal at least), and they are claiming 35g per side, and they work with standard cleat mounting standards. Read the reviews, its frankly right up your alley on a project like this.
hadn't considered them as there was much unfavorable about them a year or so ago. maybe i'll look, but i'd prefer not to modify things that could affect my pedal stroke.

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How about cables- are you using standard cables and housing? There are lighter weight options, some work better than others, but it'll free up a few grams.
nokon brake housing (which is lighter than other stuff--nokon shift housing is generally heavier, thought!), and otherwise di2. also, i'm only going to use a front brake.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
Tyres- I assume you are running those fancy-euro-pro contis?
actually some tubular cronos.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
Bar tape- given you are going with a bullhorn setup (nice thinking, I was going to suggest this after thinking about the theme- it's pretty standard for British hill-climb bikes), what tape are you using, and what weight are you at?
For a bullhorn setup, you shouldn't need to wrap the center section of the bars- and since it is a short event, have you considered skateboard deck tape or similar? Weighs just about nothing.
no tape. i do use grip tape on my TT bike, and may put a few cms of it for this case.

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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
To save the grams from the mounting hardware, just put the head unit in your jersey pocket/leg band?
good point. garmin doesn't tend to record when in my jersey pocket. might mount it under the saddle.

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Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
how esoteric do you want to get?
you name a road and i've probably already gone down it. open to suggestions.

i've considered tires, built up light wheels, skewers, top cap, seat post collar, post, cassette, removal of FD, 1 brake, different bars, stem, using my lightest frame...and a few things i've ruled out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by save10 View Post
you could

-remove bar tape and just go with a few pieces of electrical tape to hold any wiring in place
-lighter cages (i'm sure you though of that)
-consider taking the cover off your saddle (or an old one). I know some guys that took the cover off their old SLRs and then drilled the body for more weight savings. the cover doesnt really effect comfort and wont be a factor over a shorter race. i have this chinese carbon thing on my bike and its fine. Hylix Road Bike Carbon Saddle Seat Fit MTB Riding Ergonomics 91g Touple SL | eBay
-are you running clinchers? veloplugs are reported to be lighter than rim tape. I have them on one of oldest clincher sets....works fine
-i think some water bottles are lighter than others...you should look in to that
-finally my oakley half jackets are boat anchors compared to my smith pivlocks or no sunglasses at all
thanks! definitely no sunglasses, even though they're light. not taking any bottles or cages. don't need it for 30'. last year i took a hammer gel flask with some sips of water, but that is more comfort.

saddle cover is interesting, though my saddle happens to be a very light one with minimal cover/padding (it's what i happen to use regardless of weight). it's like 110g or something ridiculous--but the main point for me is comfort.

i appreciate the ideas.
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Old 07-03-14, 02:57 PM   #32
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I'd say get on the narrow/wide bandwagon and do some testing.
and, yes, after reading the thread and learning there were 110 options, i ordered some rings today. trouble is due to racing/travel schedule i won't have a ton of time to test, but i'll definitely get some testing in. won't fly blind.

this thread is helpful as it helped narrow down that ring situation for me. your experience with the recon makes me curious enough to possibly give it a go. if you had a bad experience with that or with the wide/narrow, i'd be more likely to avoid it.

i have a chain guard on hand and can run an inner catcher, so if the wide/narrow thing doesn't work to my satisfaction i can always bail back to it.

thanks! very much appreciate the discussion.
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Old 07-03-14, 03:46 PM   #33
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so just a climb. Have you considered not gluing your tubulars or maybe just one glue layer. Get a good shave early am or night before. take the padding out of your helmet.
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Old 07-03-14, 03:58 PM   #34
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so just a climb. Have you considered not gluing your tubulars or maybe just one glue layer. Get a good shave early am or night before. take the padding out of your helmet.
no way on the glue. weight is super minimal and the quality of the glue job affects the way the tire rolls (i've measured via roller tests).

you're a data guy--i can tell you how to test tires sometime using a power meter, speed sensor and some rollers.

no padding in the helmet. hadn't thought of that one! it's not a USAC race, so i was thinking the other day i might not even have to wear a helmet. the non-USAC thing is why i can run one brake. bet the insurance of the event would specify helmets.

as for the shave...i'm not that hairy.
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Old 07-04-14, 07:11 AM   #35
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This might be helpful The Mt. Washington Hillclimb: A case study | ccbracing
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Old 07-04-14, 07:48 AM   #36
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If it's a short hillclimb, you can drink an extra gallon or two of water for the couple days leading up to it which will cause you to shed a bunch of water weight in order to maintain ph levels. Wouldn't do it for a long race, but for an hour? Sure.
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Old 07-04-14, 08:39 AM   #37
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Fudgy's full of healthy ideas. Mega doses of caffeine, enemas, and now hyper hydration.
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Old 07-04-14, 10:12 AM   #38
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I actually like the colonic instant weight loss idea. Except it might violate the usual rule of not trying anything radically new before a race. Hate to think of the potential downsides there (though the downsides would probably continue to contribute to weight loss).
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Old 07-04-14, 10:49 PM   #39
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thanks for the useful ideas. we probably should rename this thread...and maybe start a new racer tech thread as this got highly specific.

i apologize if we got derailed a bit and the thread became more focused on the entirety of my hill climb than i intended...i'm pretty confident in terms of the gear i plan to run but wanted to vet the single ring/catcher/bolt stuff. going to test the wide/narrow ring w/o a catcher and w/ a shorter chain; i'll fall back to a guard and/or catcher if i'm not satisfied with my testing.

PS cogburn's a super smart and strong guy! thanks, grumpy.
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Old 07-06-14, 09:55 AM   #40
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Remove the the seat and seat post and stand the entire race.
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Old 07-06-14, 10:21 AM   #41
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Here's a postman outclimbing Phillipe Gilbert after handicapping Gilbert with an extra 50 lbs of bicycle.


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Old 07-06-14, 12:22 PM   #42
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Here's a postman outclimbing Phillipe Gilbert after handicapping Gilbert with an extra 50 lbs of bicycle.


In that same theme: Boogerd getting out climbed on the Cauberg by postman.

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Old 07-06-14, 08:56 PM   #43
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Remove the the seat and seat post and stand the entire race.
awesome. i generally do a ride per week where i remove my saddle, but that's just because i like the feeling. ;-)

i think i'm going to go with a unicycle instead.
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Old 07-06-14, 09:37 PM   #44
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did something of a dry run today. i decided to do two hard efforts up this climb. it was mainly for my bigger training picture but also would give me a chance to see where i am for this hill climb. ran 50/34+11-25 today and stayed in the 34 the whole time as a test; i think a 36 or 38T single will be fine. there were a couple spots where i could spin out, but i could do with a few seconds of rest.

for reference, last year i rode up it in 32:08 during the mass start race. on friday, i rode up it in a little over 38', but it was the first climb of a day when i went up 3 mountain passes, and i have training wheels/tires, 3 24oz bottles, food for 4h, etc.

today i rode up in 33:10. i'm a bit lighter (5#), bike was in the same trim as last year, and i was carrying a full bottle and some other stuff (phone, multitool, etc.) that added up to an extra 2# or so. my little back-of-the-envelope calculation based on my after-the-fact power predicted 33:02. i dragged my feet so started 4h later than the race day start (i'm no morning person!)....so got the bonus of >25F warmer....85 vs 57F.

on race day this year i hope to be a bit lighter, i'll ditch all the excess bike weight, and will carry pretty much nothing. might be 7# shaved.

even though the power was down about 5% from last year on race day, i was pretty thrilled. if i want to meet my goal i'll need to be UP 2-3% from last year. don't know that will happen as i'm in a situation of rebuilding post-injury rather than gaining, but i've got to do the work anyway for the long-term, so it is what it is.

i intentionally trained through. for those who speak power, post-clavicle and then post-femur, my CTL was in the low 40s. over the last 5 weeks i've built back up to 90. (i don't put any stock in a difference of, say, 94 or 97CTL, but there's a difference between 105 & 80.) TSB was -30 this morning...so 5% down isn't bad. (last year was sitting at 105CTL & +13TSB.)

i'll either go without water entirely or maybe my wife will do a mid-course hand-up. i used a hammer flask with a few sips of sports drink last year, but it's mostly psychological.

was strapping on my HRM today and realized there's 50g of excess. the HR is only for data recording...and probably the most useless data. (yeah, i could ditch my SRM, but that saves only 73g over a specialized spider...or 126 w/ a garmin 500; i think that data post-ride will be more valuable to me, but it also may be useful during the race to help save the 3" it will cost.)

again, if the turbo doesn't fire on race day or if the winds are unkind, i won't make it in my goal time, but all this sweating of the small stuff helps stack odds in my favor.
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Old 07-06-14, 09:41 PM   #45
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Here's a postman outclimbing Phillipe Gilbert after handicapping Gilbert with an extra 50 lbs of bicycle.
for a laugh, i've thought about doing this climb with a backpack & jugs of water totaling what i used to weigh in 2009. quick calcs put me at 8-9' slower, but it is a substantial amount of weight so i think the back-of-the-envelope thing falls down a bit...would probably be far, far slower.
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Old 07-06-14, 10:21 PM   #46
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Consider the energy cost, in terms of TSS, you incur by worrying about fiddly stuff on your bike.
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Old 07-06-14, 10:53 PM   #47
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Consider the energy cost, in terms of TSS, you incur by worrying about fiddly stuff on your bike.
not much, historically. i've done alright in this one w/o any special parts, but i am going all-in here.

i don't run parts that don't work. anyway, this is a special project. i recognize it doesn't matter anywhere else outside of a pure hill climb, and the goal is totally personal / i.e., has no relevance to anyone but me.
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Old 07-07-14, 11:34 PM   #48
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On a whim, I picked up a new old stock Scott Foil (and because it was super cheap), but it's got a 25mm offset seatpost and I'm needing the zero offset version. Anyone know if these are available for sale anywhere?

41?
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Old 07-08-14, 02:36 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by hack View Post
On a whim, I picked up a new old stock Scott Foil (and because it was super cheap), but it's got a 25mm offset seatpost and I'm needing the zero offset version. Anyone know if these are available for sale anywhere?

41?
Yes. Scott will sell you one at a stupid price, but if you Google around I've seen several people that would swap your 25 for their zero (I would have when I got my Foil).

If you really want to go light on this ditch the Di and go to a single friction shifter mounted on the bar and a SRAM red rear mech (it'll take a 14t lower jockey). 10speed Token aluminum cassette. Tufo S3 Lite tires (145g). Ti skewers with screw on fasteners. Carbon saddle as noted. No rear brake. KCNC front with a cyclocross type lever. Powercordz cable. You can get a flat carbon MTB bar in the 105g range. There's around 2+ pounds right there.

If this is the Venge there's >200g of paint on it...
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Old 07-08-14, 04:39 AM   #50
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Remove the the seat and seat post and stand the entire race.
There's a guy that used to do the Gimbels ride with no post/saddle. I think he was featured in some local paper article. I tried to stay away from him.
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