Doge

Since Chester Kyle I have not seem much truly independent aero research for cycling. I think all the numbers are real, but from Paul Lew to the other names thrown out they are attached to a product. Power is measured at the drive train, not what it takes to control the bike.

Doge

Crinkling - or glue?

It may be. We follow rules. At Chico the rules were - no crinkling - and we did not crinkle. But I am not pinning a sail on my kid's back when the written rules do not require it. Not at Nationals and not at worlds. I would venture to say the referee that challenges that will ref their last race at that level. Refs make things up in every sport. They just don't referee [at that level] again.

shovelhd

Crinkling numbers with printing that fades after crinkling. And your assumptions about the official is dead wrong.

Doge

Rules are clear that is a race promoters problem. Numbers are not to fade or the promoter is to be fined. Do you need a reference? Or can you reference that for me/us because I know what each rule says and what they don't. You posted once you did not have the rules memorized, I would have posted no such thing.
As it seems as we are both into what the rules are - what justification would you use for making up your own?
As to never refereeing again, I have to admit I am applying soccer standard to cycling and I guess they are not equivalent.
If the top 5 sponsors matter to UCI - then I would say - you are dead wrong.

shovelhd

Who said anything about soccer? FFS.

revchuck 

I got the wheels today and they have an almost-new set of 25mm Gatorskins on them. Hopefully they're better than clincher Gatorskins, which are in the running for my least favorite tire of all time. The wheels are going on my Look 585; test ride tomorrow.

Ygduf

I did alright on 80s this weekend.

Doge

Think of what you would have done on 50s... You are in fact very talented and got into this sport late. You likely would have done the same on 24s - or am I wrong?

Part II
Do you guys even want to know the results of testing - or do you all know it?

Doge

The point was officiating. I have thousands of hours as a sports official in multiple sports. I share a common bond with referees. I don't quite get why you make up rules to enforce. I know your views are not representative of some of the USAC cycling referees I know, but are of others. If you are a referee clean it up and learn the rules of cycling. No you may not push a road cyclist off the road and yes you may crinkle numbers and not use pins.

Ygduf

says the guy who puts his kid in an altitude tent.

Andy STi

So if I miss called a foul in the box that led to a penalty kick in the FA Cup final I would never ref Premiership games again - You are so wrong!

tetonrider

nope--you kind of missed my point. the poster asked about wheels; i recommended wheels ~404-depth. i said aero is more important than saving ~100-150g (based on his question).

you extrapolated this to double disks in a mass start race???

::facepalm::

also, i know plenty of guys who do not have tons of equipment choices available to them, regardless of category. video of a start of a local race doesn't really prove anything, one way or the other.

just because lots of people place higher value on lighter gear (which is easily quantified and easily felt in the parking lot) doesn't make it faster.

Ygduf

not to mention just the social aspect of racing a crit with even a rear disc. very few people like to stand out that much.

though I get the feeling that doge may not think much about things like that.

globecanvas

I have to step in to defend shovelhd, who is not the kind of guy who "makes up rules to enforce."

You know the rules. 1G6b: official's responsibility to ensure that "numbers are in good condition and properly placed." 1J7b: "Numbers may not be folded, trimmed, or otherwise defaced."

The rules do not address crinkling numbers or pins, but requires them to be properly placed and not defaced. If an official chooses to interpret an unpinned number as improperly placed, or interpret a crinkled number as defaced, that is the official's prerogative. As shovelhd has said in the past, the reason every possible permutation of behavior is not explicitly allowed or forbidden is specifically to give officials the ability to exercise judgement. A number that is attached as a crinkled wad is defaced and unreadable, so it would be absurd for the racer to protest that crinkling is not specifically disallowed. A number that is attached with one paper clip would not be properly placed, so it would be absurd for the racer to protest that paper clips are not specifically disallowed.

Gray-area behavior, like a number that is somewhat crinkled but mostly readable, will be interpreted different ways by different officials. So it goes. Most racers choose to avoid gray-area behavior for that reason.

Wylde06

There is an official at some of the races I do in Michigan that has said that he will pull someone from a race if they crinkle their number.

topflightpro

I can also argue that Crinkling, in essence, is folding the number. It's not a straight fold, but it is a bunch of micro-folds.

furiousferret

If I had a time machine I'd go back and tell my mom, 'yes I folded my clothes, those are micro folds!'

topflightpro

I also did an omnium several years ago, and one of the riders actually ran a rear disc and aero bars for the mass-start, timed mountain climb race and for the RR. I guess she only had one set of wheels.

shovelhd

I am not making up rules, I am dealing with reality. If by crinkling your kids number you cause the printing to fade to the point where I cannot score, then his result is dependent on the camera. If the camera operator cannot discern the number, or makes a mistake identifying the wrong number, causing protests and payout delays, then your decision to save .01w affects more than your kid.

I am also a multi sport official and coach but I am new to officiating cycling. I don't do it for the money. It's less than minimum wage. I do it because I think I'm capable of doing a good job of it. I will admit that the range of officiating rigor ranges from the lenient to the draconian. I tend to be on the lenient side but I also do not appreciate those that constantly push the envelope of the rules to the detriment of others in order to gain an advantage. I prefer a level playing field within the bounds of the rules.

Ygduf

I don't need a time machine, imma tell my wife tonight!

globecanvas

Let the handwringing commence. Traveling next week for a 3-crit weekend and I can only bring one set of wheels. It's too far out for the forecast to be reliable of course, but the extended forecast is currently for rain all weekend.

If not raining I'd absolutely bring 60mm carbon tubulars. If the forecast holds, I'm not sure what to bring. My training wheels are your standard velocity A23 24/28 on decent hubs, neither light nor aero (not heavy wheels, but not light). I've never actually ridden the carbon tubulars in the rain but I assume braking would be horrible to nonexistent.

grolby

Okay. Road race with a nasty finishing climb every lap coming up. Basically a 3-5 minute effort 5 times in 55 miles. So I want to glue up my light wheels to have at least a little bit of help getting over it. We're talking about a 200-250 gram savings over my normal race wheels, here. Not an aero/weight trade off, both sets of wheels are probably about equally aero.

None of that is the question. Here's the question. These wheels had a LOT of gunk on them when I got them. Glue and large pieces of base tape, or maybe just bits of glue with base tape pattern in them. I've managed to scrape the really big chunks off. I don't have time to go and get them pristine. There's still a layer of old glue. It's a little uneven from the scraping, though not super-lumpy or anything. More like rough to the touch. I just want to be sure that it's going to be safe to glue to them, now. Thoughts?

carpediemracing 

[QUOTE=grolby;17865571Here's the question. These wheels had a LOT of gunk on them when I got them. Glue and large pieces of base tape, or maybe just bits of glue with base tape pattern in them. I've managed to scrape the really big chunks off. I don't have time to go and get them pristine. There's still a layer of old glue. It's a little uneven from the scraping, though not super-lumpy or anything. More like rough to the touch. I just want to be sure that it's going to be safe to glue to them, now. Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Glue it. My recent glue job fits your description. See if the new glue starts to dissolve some of the old glue, it should. Then stick the tire on.

Disclaimer: although I've done some hard maneuvers in crits, I haven't done a full on emergency stop from 50+ mph on tubulars in forever. In other words I haven't really experienced heat-affected glue problems. Not sure if the thicker glue gets affected by heat more.

shovelhd

GC, when I travel for races with only one set of wheels I bring clinchers. I don't want to deal with a flat tubular. All of my wheels are carbon and have no issues braking in wet conditions. It's not a factor.

Grolby, just glue it and clean everything up next time.

grolby

Thanks CD and shovelhd. Looks like I'll be up kinda late tonight.