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  1. #1
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    Racer Tech Thread

    Seems like technical/equipment questions get buried in other threads, like the RTT. I have a question to ask and it seemed like this could be a good catch-all for mechanical (or electronic, these days) questions for racers.

    I've got a mass start uphill race -- one of few where weight actually matters. I'll show up as lean as I can be and with as much training as I can. This one is "all-in" for me.

    I'm planning to run a single chainring setup on my road crankset (SRM spider). I know I'll need some single-ring bolts. I'll run gears in the back, but I plan to ditch the FD.

    * Should I go steel or aluminum? For a true single-speed or a track setup, with standing sprints to 1500W, I'd think one should go with steel. Do I need it for a more steady-state effort? Based on last year's data, I'll have a few out of the saddle surges to 550W, but it will be mostly steady. Are aluminum bolts OK? (Yeah, the weight savings is tiny but it all adds up; I don't want to take undue risk.) Thinking guys like @Hida Yanra may have ideas here.

    * Can I just run my DA 7900 34T or 39T inner ring or should I get a dedicated single ring? I'll mostly be in the 19-23 sprockets, but for a few dips in terrain instead of shifting to 50x19 I can simply go to 34/39x14. I think chain line with the inner ring would be preferable to outer ring only. I'd prefer not to run a chain guide. Is this risk worth any thought? (Before someone digs up the David Millar prologue thing, that was a sing

    * Should I bother to shorten the chain? Not thinking so much in terms of weight savings (few grams), but if it will materially reduce risk of a dropped chain I should probably do it.

    All this may be for naught as I'm facing some other setbacks, but a 250g savings (FD + big ring) on this climb = about 5". If all goes well -- including the weather -- I'll be coming really, really close to my (totally arbitrary and only meaningful to me) goal; seconds may count.

    Thanks for the thoughts.

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    pan y agua merlinextraligh's Avatar
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    As for using your normal chainring, think David Millar.

    Regular road chainrings are designed to derail. I'd use a ring intended to be run as a single.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
    * Can I just run my DA 7900 34T or 39T inner ring or should I get a dedicated single ring? I'll mostly be in the 19-23 sprockets, but for a few dips in terrain instead of shifting to 50x19 I can simply go to 34/39x14. I think chain line with the inner ring would be preferable to outer ring only. I'd prefer not to run a chain guide. Is this risk worth any thought?

    I would think chain drop would be a significant risk. If you go to all this trouble and even shorten the chain, imagine how bummed you'll be if you drop the chain anyway.
    Ninny

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    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    I would think chain drop would be a significant risk. If you go to all this trouble and even shorten the chain, imagine how bummed you'll be if you drop the chain anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    As for using your normal chainring, think David Millar.

    Regular road chainrings are designed to derail. I'd use a ring intended to be run as a single.
    Yep. I did the Regional TT champs couple years back, couldn't use my front derailleur ('nother story), so took it off. Chain dropped 3 times in the 1-hr race!

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    Alloy bolts are fine- they have a shorter service life because of getting rounded out (metal is too soft for consistent install/removal), but for this they'd be fine. They'll take the torque no problem.

    I'd probably go with a 39t or 38t myself, and if you can get one there in time, a wide-narrow tooth chainring. They are SO NIFTY, and seem to fix just a whole mess of problems.
    What BCD are you using? (I think you probably have options for both 130 and 110, but checking to be safe)

    34x14 isn't a bad gear- but big/big gears do have better efficiency (since we are working the tiny %s here), so 38/39 is preferable.

    How does the start play out? Is it a CX style thing where making that first group off the line is critical? How often will you need to react to surges during the race? (in reference to the 550w stuff you mentioned)

    How likely is a sprint at the end of the climb? What are your gearing plans for that?
    What cassette are you going to use? The Recon stuff works quite well in my experience, and they are both light and cheap (compared to DA/Record cassettes)
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
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    I wouldn't shorten the chain unless you're running a max length chain (barely clears the pulleys in the small-small) or you go to a smaller small chainring or cog.

    If you're really adamant about no front derailleur then I'd just a N-Gear Jumpstop on the inside of the ring. To the outside… don't know, but a big effort in the small-small (like a 34x11 for example) will pull the chain toward the outside of the bike. If you're leaning to the right, if you hit a little bump or something, the chain will come off. I watched it happen in front of me in a Tues Night race a few weeks ago, some jokers insist on doing the race on single speeds (another one showed up on a fixed gear and was told to pull out of the race).

    If you can stand the idea of a front derailleur I'd either use something like the downhill racers use or get an older/worn front derailleur and cut the tail off. You want just the U shape thing at the front. While you're at it you can drill holes in it and stuff. Or you can fabricate something with a light band and some piece of welded aluminum (?) to hang a U shape cage over the chain. Remove all the cables and stuff, you just want the U shaped guide so your chain doesn't want to pop off.

    Aluminum chainring bolts are just more sensitive to over-tightening. If you hear creaking then it's probably done. If you buy Ti ones you would have more reliability and you could use them on your bike normally. Just use anti-seize and loosen them regularly so they don't freeze.

    Is it possible to use downtube shifters? Or are there parts where you need to be able to go while shifting?
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

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    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I'm with the others. If you drop your chain the race is over so it's worth 50g to prevent it. I'd run the road 39 or like Hida suggests a cross oriented single chainring. I would do whatever you need to do with the chain not for weight but to keep it properly tensioned so it won't try and drop. Good luck and have fun.

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    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    Where else can you try to gain weight savings? I agree with the others, and it may not be worth it.
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    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Knowing Eric I'm sure he has already done everything possible and maybe a few things impossible to reduce the weight of this rig. He's scraping for grams.

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    To clarify the aluminum chainring bolts I've had eventually popped their top off (of the male piece), usually after several install/uninstall cycles. This ended the serviceable life of the bolt. I never had a problem with power transmission, i.e. I never sheared the bolts.

    Cutting the last couple inches of the drops off took 30g off my aluminum bars. I didn't do it for weight but I weighed the ends out of curiosity, plus the scale was right there. Even with heat treated light aluminum bars the weight was similar (3ttt Gimondi). Since those bars are pretty light I imagine cutting a bit off carbon bars would save similar weight.

    Have you thought of off-the-bike stuff, like cleats (or specifically cleat hardware)?

    For a chain guide thing I'd use one of those thing carbon fiber front der clamps with a bent/welded aluminum thing to position the U shaped piece correctly. If you do it right it might even be adjustable (use alum cable tensioner type things as a left-right barrel adjuster?). If it's aluminum it'll be all of 30 grams or something.

    This is the kind of stuff I'd love to be able to work on except for me the extra 40 lbs on the body makes gram searching pointless, plus I don't know how to weld and I don't understand the complexities of mechanical design. For example I like reading bits about when journalists see Contador's bike, how freely everything spins. I've seen this a couple times so I think his bikes are unusually finely honed, or else the mechanic is proud of his work and "lets" the journalists see the results. Obviously other teams want to optimize their bikes as well but for journalists to make a point of writing about it means it is unusual for the journalist to see it.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

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    Quote Originally Posted by merlinextraligh View Post
    As for using your normal chainring, think David Millar.

    Regular road chainrings are designed to derail. I'd use a ring intended to be run as a single.
    thanks. in my OP i mentioned Millar but it got cut off for some reason. I was immediately thinking of him. Was that particular issue due, in part, to oval rings?

    Anyway, the point is a good one. Thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    I would think chain drop would be a significant risk. If you go to all this trouble and even shorten the chain, imagine how bummed you'll be if you drop the chain anyway.
    Quote Originally Posted by mkadam68 View Post
    Yep. I did the Regional TT champs couple years back, couldn't use my front derailleur ('nother story), so took it off. Chain dropped 3 times in the 1-hr race!
    Thanks for confirming. Removing the FD without a considered plan is not a risk worth taking.

  12. #12
    Senior Member globecanvas's Avatar
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    I run 1x10 on my cross bike with an unramped chainring (which I got from you!) and inner and outer chainguards, and I still drop the chain sometimes, even on the road (rarely, but it has happened). If you're moving around on the cassette at all, your chainline is varying and just the tiniest bit of chain suck at the wrong time can bounce the chain off.

    There are the new fancy SRAM chainrings, and also RDs with clutches, but I haven't tried any of that stuff.

    Is single speed at all an option? You could save a whole lot of weight that way, and no risk of chain drop.
    Ninny

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    Thanks, Hida!
    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    Alloy bolts are fine- they have a shorter service life because of getting rounded out (metal is too soft for consistent install/removal), but for this they'd be fine. They'll take the torque no problem.
    Good to know. I wasn't aware of that as the reason.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    I'd probably go with a 39t or 38t myself, and if you can get one there in time, a wide-narrow tooth chainring. They are SO NIFTY, and seem to fix just a whole mess of problems.
    What BCD are you using? (I think you probably have options for both 130 and 110, but checking to be safe)
    So funny you mention this. Before checking back in on this thread I was thinking about the MTB 1x solutions (wide/narrow) and learned that they now have 110 & 130BCD rings. I know they still have some problems, esp with mud, and they work better with an RD with a clutch, but this isn't bumpy or muddy terrain.

    You're right, I could run either; 110 would be slightly easier.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    34x14 isn't a bad gear- but big/big gears do have better efficiency (since we are working the tiny %s here), so 38/39 is preferable.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    How does the start play out? Is it a CX style thing where making that first group off the line is critical? How often will you need to react to surges during the race? (in reference to the 550w stuff you mentioned)
    It's a mass start race, but it's not super insane at the start. It is important to be at the front but not so difficult to get there. I.e., it's not like there are 1,000 riders on a narrow road. I'll start in the first row and be fine there. Here's an idea of what the surges look like (yellow). I was in the first few wheels for the first mile. At ~1.5 miles, a rider took off, and I decided instead to settle into my rhythm, guessing that he was doing something unsustainable. (He was; I passed him for good at about 2.25 miles in, probably where that little bump is.

    Cadence is in green. That dotted line is at 81rpm (my average for the climb). Speed is in blue. It ranged from 8mph to 19.3 (blue dotted lines @ 8 & 18).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    How likely is a sprint at the end of the climb? What are your gearing plans for that?
    I put in a little dig at the end. The 32:00 marker was approaching, but I finished at 32:08. In theory, I should not have been able to surge that hard.

    Last year I ran 50/34 + 11-25. I'm not sure I used the 25 at all. The way I'd typically ride is to start in the big ring for the first 60", then shift down. After 2' in there's a flat/fast spot. I'd normally shift to the big ring for a minute. I then settle into something like 34/21-25. At ~5 miles in there's a short dip. I'll usually shift to the big ring here, but I also usually need the little break. Every second may count, so I'll need to push here, but I get less bang for the buck in this section. There are a couple steep bits at the end.

    I used a gear calculator; 39x13 = 19.25mph @ 82rpms. @90rpms, 39x14=19.7. On the lower end, though, 39x25=9.7mph @ 82 (what I averaged on the steeper, consistent middle section).... I'd have to drop cadence a bit more vs what I prefer. Actually, a 39T wide narrow isn't possible, I think, so it would be 38 or 40.

    36Tx12 would be 19.25 @ 82rpm and 36x25 @ 80=9mph.

    34x11 = 19.8 @ 82 and 34x25=8.5 @ 80.

    I didn't want to go 11-28 (bigger sprad in the back = longer chain = slightly higher chance of a drop.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    What cassette are you going to use? The Recon stuff works quite well in my experience, and they are both light and cheap (compared to DA/Record cassettes)
    I have 1190 11-25 and 11-28 available. An aluminum cassette scares me a bit, esp as this could involve shifting under heavy load. 124g claimed (recon 11-28) vs 154 (for 11-25; few grams more for the 11-28). Hm.

    Wide/narrow rings are a 30g penalty vs a DA inner ring, but the alternative is a chain watcher + outer guide. Weight savings for no FD & no big ring = 1/2 a pound for me -- more when I factor in no front shifter.

    Thanks for the thoughts. Obv geeking out on the gearing

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    Thanks, CDR.
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    I wouldn't shorten the chain unless you're running a max length chain (barely clears the pulleys in the small-small) or you go to a smaller small chainring or cog.
    Shortening it is mainly to reduce the chance of derailment. That is the idea, at l


    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    If you're really adamant about no front derailleur then I'd just a N-Gear Jumpstop on the inside of the ring. To the outside… don't know, but a big effort in the small-small (like a 34x11 for example) will pull the chain toward the outside of the bike. If you're leaning to the right, if you hit a little bump or something, the chain will come off. I watched it happen in front of me in a Tues Night race a few weeks ago, some jokers insist on doing the race on single speeds (another one showed up on a fixed gear and was told to pull out of the race).
    we're looking at 30g or so for the n-gear or similar device. I generally don't drop the chain to the inside--and that would most often happen on a front shift. The chain line for the inner ring only would be untouched. I'd be using the inner ring + a few smaller cogs than I'd normally use, so I think the bigger risk is throwing the chain to the outside....esp as you and a few others say with the inner ring ramped to shift to the outside. A chain guard adds ~60g...so then we're not far off from just keeping the FD on there.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    If you can stand the idea of a front derailleur I'd either use something like the downhill racers use or get an older/worn front derailleur and cut the tail off. You want just the U shape thing at the front. While you're at it you can drill holes in it and stuff. Or you can fabricate something with a light band and some piece of welded aluminum (?) to hang a U shape cage over the chain. Remove all the cables and stuff, you just want the U shaped guide so your chain doesn't want to pop off.
    Yes. Good point. I remember those on DHer bikes.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Aluminum chainring bolts are just more sensitive to over-tightening. If you hear creaking then it's probably done. If you buy Ti ones you would have more reliability and you could use them on your bike normally. Just use anti-seize and loosen them regularly so they don't freeze.
    Thanks! I need the shorter bolts for this application, but then I'd switch back to my normal DA 7900 rings, with the Shimano bolts.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Is it possible to use downtube shifters? Or are there parts where you need to be able to go while shifting?
    I'm going to run one di2 shifter on the bars.

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    Senior Member topflightpro's Avatar
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    You need something to keep the chain on the chainring regardless of whether you use just your inner ring or a specific single chaingring.

    I have my CX bike set up as a 1x10. I previously just had a FD on there, but now have a K-Edge single chain catcher the inside and an FSA carbon bash guard where the big ring would be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Creatre View Post
    Where else can you try to gain weight savings? I agree with the others, and it may not be worth it.
    Body (working on that...I'm weighing in at 5-7# lighter than last year and I was already pretty lean for that. I may be able to drop 3-4# in the next 4 weeks).
    Kit (I'll pick the lightest stuff I have; will also ditch little things like sunglasses and gloves. Minor, but 30g here, 30g there....)
    Bike (I've pretty much thought of every place I can trim weight. I could do something like ditch the SRM. It adds ~80g or so. I don't really need it for pacing. I know my body well enough at this point, but I'd like to have the data. That said, I'll probably use my Garmin 500 instead of the PC7/speed sensor. )

    You are right, though: I don't want to save a second and lose a minute due to a part malfunction.

    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Knowing Eric I'm sure he has already done everything possible and maybe a few things impossible to reduce the weight of this rig. He's scraping for grams.


    My rig was fairly light for last year. Over the winter I bult a super light set of wheels and more recently have been figuring everything else out. Quick calculation shows more than 1.5 kilos of weight savings for bike+kit. Totally ridiculous in any other context (hell, maybe even this context), that that could be 30".

    This whole plan could easily go up in flames -- unfavorable wind conditions on race day, not being able to squeeze out 102% power from my body that morning for any reason (esp considering I am trying to come back from injuries). Last year I did not really get any major draft advantage. I was disappointed and thought the pace might be higher there, for free. I don't think that could go worse this time; maybe it will be better. I would never ask someone to work for me in that first mile, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    To clarify the aluminum chainring bolts I've had eventually popped their top off (of the male piece), usually after several install/uninstall cycles. This ended the serviceable life of the bolt. I never had a problem with power transmission, i.e. I never sheared the bolts.
    thanks for clarifying. power transmission is what i'm most interested in here. sounds like there is no issue.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Cutting the last couple inches of the drops off took 30g off my aluminum bars. I didn't do it for weight but I weighed the ends out of curiosity, plus the scale was right there. Even with heat treated light aluminum bars the weight was similar (3ttt Gimondi). Since those bars are pretty light I imagine cutting a bit off carbon bars would save similar weight.
    I could have gone with a light road bar but instead chose a bullhorn bar. I did shorten the ends (saved 5 or 10g, can't recall without checking), but the main reason was for reach. Bullhorn bar is slightly heavier but it allows me to use a light di2 brake/shift lever which is 1/2 the weight of an STI shifter. in fact, the shifter portion of it essentially adds no weight over a TT brake lever.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    Have you thought of off-the-bike stuff, like cleats (or specifically cleat hardware)?
    lighter helmet vs more aero one.
    lightest jersey/bibs.
    no base layer.
    light socks. (sock less = not worth it, i don't think. maybe i could wear something more like a sanitary sock (super thin)? don't really want to get blisters.)
    no gloves/glasses
    shoes -- have 2 pair but they're the same weight.
    cleats -- i use looks. i think my cleats are already as light as they can be. the look bolts are aluminum, i think--it's pretty easy to round the head of them.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    This is the kind of stuff I'd love to be able to work on except for me the extra 40 lbs on the body makes gram searching pointless, plus I don't know how to weld and I don't understand the complexities of mechanical design. For example I like reading bits about when journalists see Contador's bike, how freely everything spins. I've seen this a couple times so I think his bikes are unusually finely honed, or else the mechanic is proud of his work and "lets" the journalists see the results. Obviously other teams want to optimize their bikes as well but for journalists to make a point of writing about it means it is unusual for the journalist to see it.
    i've often heard people say "lose weight off your gut" when discussion of a light part comes up -- or my favorite: "train more." they're not mutually exclusive.

    also, who is to say (for you) whether subtracting weight off your bike is not worth it even if you are 40# heavier than you want to be? i mean, i'm sure you can lose the weight with time and discipline, but there's no reason you couldn't do the bike stuff if it was your desire.

    every single item i'm looking at is ridiculous when taken individually--but i've been amazed by how much the 10g here, 30g there has added up to. it would still be fair for someone to say 1.5kg savings is ridiculous--who cares about 30"?

    gottta control the food i put in my mouth. toughest part of that for me will be that i'm traveling to race/vacation with family up to 4 days prior to the event, and i'll likely want to celebrate after racing, so i could undo a lot of hard work there. i've been very slowly/steadily cutting weight. it's come out to 1/2-1# per month.

    also, i've got a 40' TT the day before this hill climb.

    i'll be as trained as i can be for it, so the bike/kit weight savings is a bonus (but probably crucial if i am to have any chance.)

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    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    Di2 with SRAM? It's gonna essplode.

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    Quote Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
    You need something to keep the chain on the chainring regardless of whether you use just your inner ring or a specific single chaingring.

    I have my CX bike set up as a 1x10. I previously just had a FD on there, but now have a K-Edge single chain catcher the inside and an FSA carbon bash guard where the big ring would be.
    i've got a k-edge catcher and bash guard on my CX rig (1x10), too. i just run it with a 7900 42T ring.

    the thing is (correct me if i'm wrong) a CX bike is being lifted, slammed down, jumped on, run through dirt/mud....more chances for drops without those protections.

    a hill climb bike? some power surges but smooth terrain and more steady-state.

    some folks are running wide/narrow rings on MTBs without any guards. some of them have clutch RDs.

    i dunno--i'm thinking it could work but maybe i am wrong.

    if i have to add back 90-95g i might as well keep my FD (105g) on.

    PS i think i'd need to use a braze-on compatible inner chain watcher. most are for round tubes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    Di2 with SRAM? It's gonna essplode.


    unfortunately, with the 9000 series i cannot trust DA cassettes. i think that in the past (7800 & 7900), DA cassettes that were kept clean ran for a long, long time.

    1190 is lighter weight. definitely prefer shimano drivetrains, but i made a call here to go lighter.

    open to the recon cassette that hida mentioned....but i'd need a STRONG recommendation to get over the alu cog risk.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tetonrider View Post
    also, who is to say (for you) whether subtracting weight off your bike is not worth it even if you are 40# heavier than you want to be? i mean, i'm sure you can lose the weight with time and discipline, but there's no reason you couldn't do the bike stuff if it was your desire.
    After I lost all that weight in 2009-2010 I was on the Tsunami for the first time. It was at least a pound heavier than the Cannondale, bare frame was 1600g (Cannondale, in a larger size, was 1150g). I also used a 450g fork vs the 300-something gram Cannondale top of the line Slice fork. Yet I was using 200-300w less power to get up the hill at Bethel, I was dragging the brakes on the easy laps, and I felt like I could do anything on the bike. I realized then that a pound on the bike was nothing compared to 30 or 40 pounds off the rider.

    Now I focus first on fit/ergonomics. If I have some deluxe stuff then I'll do weight. Except wheels. Wheels I look at rotating weight.

    As far as discipline I am pretty low on that, so losing the weight is tough for me. I can get to about 167-168 but 160 is tough and 150 was virtually out of reach. I ought to be in the 150s, even 145. To be really cut I think I'd be close to 140.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  21. #21
    illusoryly superior Ygduf's Avatar
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    ctrl-f colonic

    not mentioned yet. If you care about 250g you should get a colonic a day or two before. Like 5lbs!

    twitter.com/ygduf
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    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    I realized then that a pound on the bike was nothing compared to 30 or 40 pounds off the rider.
    of course!

    i'm definitely considering a very special case here -- but my earlier point is that if you just want to buy/make/use something light on the bike, it is still a benefit to you, whether you are 5% BF or 25%.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing
    Now I focus first on fit/ergonomics. If I have some deluxe stuff then I'll do weight. Except wheels. Wheels I look at rotating weight.
    i'm of the opinion that rotating weight, on a bike, makes no difference vs non-rotating weight. there eIS a difference, but it is so incredibly minor as to be inconsequential--for me. not all feel the same.

    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing
    As far as discipline I am pretty low on that, so losing the weight is tough for me. I can get to about 167-168 but 160 is tough and 150 was virtually out of reach. I ought to be in the 150s, even 145. To be really cut I think I'd be close to 140.
    i've been shocked. when i got my first DEXA scan a few years back, what i thought was 10% BF was definitely not. really opening my eyes to where fat was hiding and what i could actually trim. at that point i thought there was nothing i could lose.

    anyway, the whole discipline thing is a can of worms. there's a huge industry around selling people tricks to lose weight, but it comes down to resisting temptation. it is amazing how quickly one can undo so much hard work. for me, with slow and steady losses (e.g., an extra 30' of tempo a day + trying to resist that dessert at night)...that daily redux is something i could erase in a few minutes post-ride.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hida Yanra View Post
    What cassette are you going to use? The Recon stuff works quite well in my experience, and they are both light and cheap (compared to DA/Record cassettes)
    wow....recon 11-25 saves more like 50g than 30g. ridiculously light.

    just correcting my earlier guess as i thought it was about 125 (recon 11-28) vs 154 (1190 11-25) -- realized that there is a recon 11-25 @ ~110. also, 1190 11-28 is more like 169g.

  24. #24
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
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    I hear ya regarding the DA9000 cassettes. Shimano could be handling it better. I didn't know Recon made 11 speed Shimano cassettes. I have a K-Edge braze-on if you need it.

  25. #25
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    ctrl-f colonic

    not mentioned yet. If you care about 250g you should get a colonic a day or two before. Like 5lbs!
    This seems to be the best advice so far!

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