Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 28
  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    131
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Hows this FTP Improvement Plan Look??

    Been riding a bit over a year. FTP is 200 watts. Weight 60kg.

    3x20 @95%
    90 min @90%
    Easy
    2x20 @100%
    90 min @90%
    5 hours @75%
    Easy

    3x20 @95%
    5x5 @115%
    Easy
    2x20 @100%
    90 min @90%
    3x20 @95%
    Off

    3x25 @95%
    100 min @90%
    Easy
    2x25 @100%
    95 min @90%
    5 hours @75%
    Easy

    Recovery Week?



    New FTP Test. Repeat?
    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Normal people have no idea how much work it takes to be a mediocre bike racer.

  2. #2
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Roubaix SL4 Expert , Cervelo S2
    Posts
    2,398
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I don't see the point of the 90 minute ride at 90%. I would just alternate 2x20's at 95-100% (whatever is manageable) with easy/rest days and do a longer ride on the weekend. Or two days of 2x20's and one day of 5x5's per week. If you're just starting out at intervals that is a boat load of intensity to jump right into.

  3. #3
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    My Bikes
    road bikes
    Posts
    6,236
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    meh. if you never ride over ftp, how's your FTP going to go up?

    just do 5x5 at max or 110 or 105 or whatever every other day for 5 weeks. I mean, all these intervals look so miserable you might as well do something to overload the system.

    source: I know a guy who's a cat 1.

    twitter.com/ygduf
    strava.com/athletes/ygduf

  4. #4
    Yep
    Yep is offline
    no cat contains Yep's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    wintery and elevated
    Posts
    567
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Good God. If you're FTP is set right, that's a lot of work. You have weeks where you're doing 2 and 3 days of 2x20+ FTP intervals.

    I would compare the TSS you might expect from those weeks to the TSS you've been averaging and looks at the increase. You could do more of the sweet spot stuff and less of the FTP intervals and not grind yourself down. I've had good luck with 90% of FTP. I've found that I can train FTP effectively at efforts anywhere from 90+% of FTP, so long as the time increases accordingly.

    I think the more traditional approach is to do the 5x5s (VO2 max) vs FTP stuff is to do the more intense stuff after the longer, less intense intervals. In practice, I don't how much it matters. I usually do 5x5 kind of stuff after I've done longer ints just because I need that acclimatization.

    (below more related to VO2/AC than FTP)

    FWIW, I've been doing - 3 sets of: 1min @ 150%, rest 1 min, then rest 5 minutes, then do the 3 sets of 1min @ 150% again. Only 6 minutes of actual work, but MUCH harder than it looks when you read it on a screen. It was recommended to me to do that workout every other day for the 2 or 3 weeks leading up to a priority race, and I could tell the difference. These, of course, were after all the base/build stuff. I imagine they're similar to @waterrockets WRI workouts.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryanf
    its a start: 1. measure thighs 2. get on bike 3. win
    cat 2 - 1/30

  5. #5
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Redlands, CA
    Posts
    2,873
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What's your need to increase FTP? A few months ago I was big on increasing it but now I don't see much relevancy in it for the type of racing I do.

  6. #6
    Not actually Tmonk TMonk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    San Diego, CA
    My Bikes
    caad9, capo (fixed), centurion dave scott 10sp, dolan pre cursa (track)
    Posts
    6,369
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yep View Post
    ...rest 1 min, then rest 5 minutes...
    wut
    "Your beauty is an aeroplane;
    so high, my heart cannot bear the strain." -A.C. Jobim, Triste

  7. #7
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Austin (near TX)
    My Bikes
    rkwaki's porn collection
    Posts
    26,112
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    meh. if you never ride over ftp, how's your FTP going to go up?
    SST is not over FTP, and it pushed me up to 4.75W/kg... and I'm a kilo guy.

    My sources are finding bigger gains with more push threshold work than pull threshold work (but still a split, not an elimination of the harder stuff). I also saw my highest threshold in 2.5 years after I backed off the interval intensity on threshold work, and I was absolutely plateaued -- could not bump up FTP for about 10 weeks, then 3 weeks baked off a bit and FTP bumps 20W.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yep View Post
    Good God. If you're FTP is set right, that's a lot of work. You have weeks where you're doing 2 and 3 days of 2x20+ FTP intervals.
    Yep: yep.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yep View Post
    I would compare the TSS you might expect from those weeks to the TSS you've been averaging and looks at the increase. You could do more of the sweet spot stuff and less of the FTP intervals and not grind yourself down. I've had good luck with 90% of FTP. I've found that I can train FTP effectively at efforts anywhere from 90+% of FTP, so long as the time increases accordingly.

    I think the more traditional approach is to do the 5x5s (VO2 max) vs FTP stuff is to do the more intense stuff after the longer, less intense intervals. In practice, I don't how much it matters. I usually do 5x5 kind of stuff after I've done longer ints just because I need that acclimatization.

    (below more related to VO2/AC than FTP)
    Yeah, along these lines, I would stay away from any VO2 stuff when the focus is on building FTP. Just eliminate these intervals altogether for this block.

    My suggestion to wsuhoops is to train just below threshold for much of your interval work so that you can do 3-4 days/week of that kind of work without overtraining. I think that you can work in one workout with tough "pull" intervals each week in place of one of the easier threshold workouts, as that won't tear you down too much. The key is patience, because it doesn't feel like you're doing enough. You can practice suffering when you're done building FTP and start doing the VO2/AWC/ATP stuff...

    Quote Originally Posted by Yep View Post
    FWIW, I've been doing - 3 sets of: 1min @ 150%, rest 1 min, then rest 5 minutes, then do the 3 sets of 1min @ 150% again. Only 6 minutes of actual work, but MUCH harder than it looks when you read it on a screen. It was recommended to me to do that workout every other day for the 2 or 3 weeks leading up to a priority race, and I could tell the difference. These, of course, were after all the base/build stuff. I imagine they're similar to @waterrockets WRI workouts.
    Well, the WRI stuff is steady RPE, allowing power to fall. The focus is on maintaining the effort and pain, and ending up well into the AWC training zone for the minute. Then I recover at 70% for 5 minutes between each interval. For a 1' test, it's RPE 10, pure and simple. For intervals, RPE 9, usually, with a 10 on the last one. I can't get into AWC for all 5 or 6 intervals if I target RPE 10 each time.

  8. #8
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    My Bikes
    road bikes
    Posts
    6,236
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    SST is not over FTP, and it pushed me up to 4.75W/kg... and I'm a kilo guy.

    My sources are finding bigger gains with more push threshold work than pull threshold work (but still a split, not an elimination of the harder stuff). I also saw my highest threshold in 2.5 years after I backed off the interval intensity on threshold work, and I was absolutely plateaued -- could not bump up FTP for about 10 weeks, then 3 weeks baked off a bit and FTP bumps 20W.

    That's great and all, but if we're going to give advice by size of our ftps he going to want to take mine. Anyway, I'd give different advice if someone had been riding for years. He said he'd been riding just over a year, which means he is nowhere near a plateau or genetic limit. I think he'd get there faster raising the left and letting the right fill on it's own.

    Whatever he does, after only a year, is going to lead to gains. There's no wrong answer, I just thought the posted schedule looked more miserable than anything else.

    twitter.com/ygduf
    strava.com/athletes/ygduf

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    SoCal
    My Bikes
    Roubaix SL4 Expert , Cervelo S2
    Posts
    2,398
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I was absolutely plateaued -- could not bump up FTP for about 10 weeks, then 3 weeks baked off a bit and FTP bumps 20W.
    Were you able to maintain the FTP increase? Are you sure it wasn't a temporary bump from having a positive TSB? My impression from reading the wattage board is that SST training is no longer in vogue. It's all about intervals in Z4+ or base training in Z1/Z2. Obviously if it's working for you that's all that matters.

  10. #10
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    ohioland/right near hicville farmtown
    Posts
    4,763
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    That's great and all, but if we're going to give advice by size of our ftps he going to want to take mine.

    ummmmmm my plan? ride 25 hours a week of jra
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  11. #11
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,573
    Mentioned
    22 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Yep View Post
    FWIW, I've been doing - 3 sets of: 1min @ 150%, rest 1 min, then rest 5 minutes, then do the 3 sets of 1min @ 150% again. Only 6 minutes of actual work, but MUCH harder than it looks when you read it on a screen. It was recommended to me to do that workout every other day for the 2 or 3 weeks leading up to a priority race, and I could tell the difference. These, of course, were after all the base/build stuff. I imagine they're similar to @waterrockets WRI workouts.
    Quote Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
    wut
    I read it as such:
    3 x 1 min 150%, 1 min rest

    3 min rest

    3 x 1 min 150%, 1 min rest

    Quote Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining View Post
    ummmmmm my plan? ride 25 hours a week of jra
    That's usually what I do, if I can, like my SoCal training camps. I throw in some localized/immediate goals, like if I ride out to Palomar then I need to complete the ride before a certain time (to avoid riding at night) which means doing the various climbs at some kind of reasonable-to-me speeds. I also do a few jumps to keep from getting too bored. I finish those kinds of weeks fatigued but mentally really fresh, like really psyched to go racing.

    I can't do a long week like that at home though. Lots of other things I end up doing than go ride the bike 3-6 hours a day.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  12. #12
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Austin (near TX)
    My Bikes
    rkwaki's porn collection
    Posts
    26,112
    Mentioned
    19 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    That's great and all, but if we're going to give advice by size of our ftps he going to want to take mine.
    I didn't clarify. When I started the SST stuff, I had been racing and training for 16 years. I got my power meter and got a plateau threshold of 320W. I started SST, and I was able to bump it to 360W, with a 475W 5' power, though my 1' power dropped to 775W (at 167 lbs). These were big gains, and I was not suffering as much in threshold training. I got too happy seeing those numbers and changed my intervals to more intense, and that's when I started falling off, then some training schedule changes hit... then injury, then illness...

    My coach has several Cat 1 and pro athletes doing an under-threshold focus, and they're making big gains.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Whatever he does, after only a year, is going to lead to gains. There's no wrong answer, I just thought the posted schedule looked more miserable than anything else.
    On this, we certainly agree.

  13. #13
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    3,397
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    That's great and all, but if we're going to give advice by size of our ftps he going to want to take mine. Anyway, I'd give different advice if someone had been riding for years. He said he'd been riding just over a year, which means he is nowhere near a plateau or genetic limit. I think he'd get there faster raising the left and letting the right fill on it's own.

    Whatever he does, after only a year, is going to lead to gains. There's no wrong answer, I just thought the posted schedule looked more miserable than anything else.
    So he wants to take your advice, your suggesting intervals, of which you never do any. So basically your advice is from theory. Your fitness comes from JRA and SST/VO2 work you get in group rides.

    Waterrockets has good advice, that would be a good place to start. I personally prefer structure sub-threshold intervals. But the pushing seems to work really good for threshold improvement. Especially if the person has never done any structure like that before.
    Category 2 | | Velogames BikeForums Leagues: 1st - 2012 Veulta, 1st - 2011 Vuelta, 2nd - 2013 Vuelta, 3rd - 2012 Giro, 4th - 2012 TdF

  14. #14
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Western MA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    12,161
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    What works for me is longer intervals at tempo mixed with VO2 work. Too much threshold just tires me out after a couple of weeks. I have been racing for ten years with a lifetime break in the middle.

  15. #15
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    131
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    SST is not over FTP, and it pushed me up to 4.75W/kg... and I'm a kilo guy.

    My sources are finding bigger gains with more push threshold work than pull threshold work (but still a split, not an elimination of the harder stuff). I also saw my highest threshold in 2.5 years after I backed off the interval intensity on threshold work, and I was absolutely plateaued -- could not bump up FTP for about 10 weeks, then 3 weeks baked off a bit and FTP bumps 20W.



    Yep: yep.



    Yeah, along these lines, I would stay away from any VO2 stuff when the focus is on building FTP. Just eliminate these intervals altogether for this block.

    My suggestion to wsuhoops is to train just below threshold for much of your interval work so that you can do 3-4 days/week of that kind of work without overtraining. I think that you can work in one workout with tough "pull" intervals each week in place of one of the easier threshold workouts, as that won't tear you down too much. The key is patience, because it doesn't feel like you're doing enough. You can practice suffering when you're done building FTP and start doing the VO2/AWC/ATP stuff...



    Well, the WRI stuff is steady RPE, allowing power to fall. The focus is on maintaining the effort and pain, and ending up well into the AWC training zone for the minute. Then I recover at 70% for 5 minutes between each interval. For a 1' test, it's RPE 10, pure and simple. For intervals, RPE 9, usually, with a 10 on the last one. I can't get into AWC for all 5 or 6 intervals if I target RPE 10 each time.

    awesome info waterrockets and everyone else. Definetely lots to think about, its all overwhelming somewhat but I think subthreshold would be a good place to start. Basically my plan so far has been ride wherever I feel like, go hard if I want, easy if I want. Then I got a power meter and rode with it not displaying just riding like I normally do, and I realize I spend most of my time riding really really easy. I got good at cruising at 18-19mph but pushing up to threshold for 20-30min has been something I'm not as used too.

    Hence I did 90 min at 90% and it didn't feel too bad, fun actually. but only 20 more watts at 100% threshold is really a different ballgame for me.

    Also too the guy who said it seemed miserable I like longer intervals they hurt a hell of a lot less then short 3-5 min intervals
    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Normal people have no idea how much work it takes to be a mediocre bike racer.

  16. #16
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    My Bikes
    road bikes
    Posts
    6,236
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    I didn't clarify. When I started the SST stuff, I had been racing and training for 16 years. I got my power meter and got a plateau threshold of 320W. I started SST, and I was able to bump it to 360W, with a 475W 5' power, though my 1' power dropped to 775W (at 167 lbs). These were big gains, and I was not suffering as much in threshold training. I got too happy seeing those numbers and changed my intervals to more intense, and that's when I started falling off, then some training schedule changes hit... then injury, then illness...

    My coach has several Cat 1 and pro athletes doing an under-threshold focus, and they're making big gains.



    On this, we certainly agree.
    I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't as many right answers to this question as there are riders. I also believe that ftp is likely limited by genetics more than anything else. It's measured in w/kg, so surface area to slow twitch muscle fiber to skeleton size to etc... are all pretty set. You could likely do my workouts and me yours and both of us would end up at about the same place if we were doing our "own" plans.

    twitter.com/ygduf
    strava.com/athletes/ygduf

  17. #17
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Ygduf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Redwood City, CA
    My Bikes
    road bikes
    Posts
    6,236
    Mentioned
    30 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by wsuhoops1000 View Post
    Hence I did 90 min at 90% and it didn't feel too bad, fun actually. but only 20 more watts at 100% threshold is really a different ballgame for me.

    Also too the guy who said it seemed miserable I like longer intervals they hurt a hell of a lot less then short 3-5 min intervals
    Don't neglect your mental toughness, whatever you do. I know plenty of guys who are as strong as or stronger than I am who give up because they don't like being miserable.

    twitter.com/ygduf
    strava.com/athletes/ygduf

  18. #18
    starting pistol means war YMCA's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    east coast
    My Bikes
    Cervelo R3
    Posts
    3,075
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    You could likely do my workouts and me yours and both of us would end up at about the same place if we were doing our "own" plans.
    this is a correct statement
    no matter your training plan, find a system you prefer and stick with it

    in the end, knowing "how to win" won't care what training you did that week

  19. #19
    Senior Member ShutUpLegs's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Mount Joy, PA
    My Bikes
    CAAD10
    Posts
    196
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    Don't neglect your mental toughness, whatever you do. I know plenty of guys who are as strong as or stronger than I am who give up because they don't like being miserable.
    FTMFW!! Something I have learned very well over my years of college swimming and now cycling. Being able to suffer > numbers
    BLOG --> http://goingoffthefront.blogspot.com/

  20. #20
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    131
    Mentioned
    1 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    New draft of a lower intensity schedule. Does it look better?

    Monday - 2x20 @95%
    Tuesday - 90 min tempo @90%
    Wednesday - Easy
    Thursday - 2x20 @95%
    Friday - 3x20 @90-95%
    Saturday - Long
    Sunday - easy/off


    Monday - 3x10 @100+%
    Tuesday - 90 min hard tempo @90%
    Wednesday - Easy
    Thursday 3x20 @90-95%
    Friday - 2x20 @100%
    Saturday - Long
    Sunday - easy/off


    Monday 3x20 @90-95%
    Tuesday 2x20 @100%
    Wednesday - Easy
    Thursday - 3x20 @90-95%
    Friday - 100 min hard tempo @90%
    Saturday - Long
    Sunday - Easy/off


    Recovery week - z1/2 some small 3
    Hope for power
    Test FTP
    See improvement?
    Quote Originally Posted by caloso View Post
    Normal people have no idea how much work it takes to be a mediocre bike racer.

  21. #21
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    3,397
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    In my opinion, that's too much still. I would at least drop one of your "on" days if you are going to keep the intensity that high. So you have 4 "on" and 3 "off" days.
    Category 2 | | Velogames BikeForums Leagues: 1st - 2012 Veulta, 1st - 2011 Vuelta, 2nd - 2013 Vuelta, 3rd - 2012 Giro, 4th - 2012 TdF

  22. #22
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Folsom, CA
    Posts
    1,368
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Just a thought as I'm not sure what your objectives are for applying the improved FTP (TTs, road race, crits, tris?), but at what point are you riding with others to ensure you are capable of riding with others? Especially if you plan to ride/race with others in close quarters? I don't want this to deviate from the original intent and become a group ride vs non group ride tangent, but it seems that mixing in a day of riding with others to keep the skills sharp would be good, no?
    Cat 2 upgrade status: never

  23. #23
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    3,397
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Also, what are you goals besides just gaining threshold? What is the reasoning of you trying to gain threshold?

    If you devote purely to threshold right now in the middle of the season, you won't really become "faster" in racing. Is your goal racing oriented?
    Category 2 | | Velogames BikeForums Leagues: 1st - 2012 Veulta, 1st - 2011 Vuelta, 2nd - 2013 Vuelta, 3rd - 2012 Giro, 4th - 2012 TdF

  24. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    759
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Something that I didn't see in here is how much base are you going into this with? To get my FTP up over the winter I was on a steady diet of long z2 rides for a couple months with some smaller intensity worked in. That is what helped me the most I think as at that point I hadn't ever done a real "base" period.

  25. #25
    Must Go Faster veloboy971's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Stopped at the bakery
    My Bikes
    Trek Madone 5.9, BMC Road Racer SL01, Orbea Aletta TT
    Posts
    954
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Creatre View Post
    In my opinion, that's too much still. I would at least drop one of your "on" days if you are going to keep the intensity that high. So you have 4 "on" and 3 "off" days.
    +1, I would change the 100 minute day at 90% down to maybe 2x60 min at tempo (more like 83-87%). Also instead of 3x20 at 90-95, why not do 2x40 at 87-93% (or SST)?

    I would like to hear what your end goal is racing or just getting stronger?
    SeaSucker/Guttenplan Coaching Cycling Team - https://www.facebook.com/GuttenplanCoachingCyclingTeam

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •