Advertise on Bikeforums.net



User Tag List

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123
Results 51 to 74 of 74
  1. #51
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,657
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    (quote stuff to give you a heads up)
    I thought of some other stuff pertinent to NYC etc.

    When I worked in the city one of the things I did was do "sprints" on the main avenues. I don't know how the current bike lanes and related laws limit such antics so you'll need to consider that. I used to work across from Bond on Broadway. I'd head north on Ave of Americas. If I went hard enough I only had to stop once before getting to Central Park and I didn't run any red lights. I went with the flow of traffic and could sustain whatever the speed is that the lights work with. This meant doing a pretty hard 30-35ish mph effort, using the natural traffic draft as a big assist (I wouldn't necessarily draft a particular vehicle but the massive tailwind created by all the vehicles helps). That kind of short effort helps with the top speed thing.

    If you're doing CP then do some efforts. Don't go 22 mph around the whole thing. Go 28 mph up the hill at the top of the course - try hitting it in maybe not your biggest gear but close to it. Following moves once I crested the hill in something like a 54x13 and I spent much of the hill in the 12 (a Mengoni rider went - I think it was Wilson Vasquez - and I followed with a Cat 1-2 named Paul Swinand). We crested the hill maybe 10 seconds clear but the field was hot on our tails. Work on big, big efforts, which means they need to be a bit shorter. Punch it over the hill and try and hold 30 mph for a bit, as if you attacked the group at the top of the hill. The steady stuff ("average speed") isn't what you need to do, you want to do the big speed efforts. Those are the things that help with mass start racing. Average speed doesn't help until you're able to do 25-28 mph for a bit, like 5-10 minutes or more.

    If you want to get away then you need to get away hard and clean. You should literally not see a single second of wind until you make your move, and you should make your move at such a time that you can sustain, say, 27 mph to the finish. It might be that at CP you make your move at 2 miles to go. That means absolutely positively no wind whatsoever until you attack. Your heart rate should be something like 110 bpm the whole race, except the hill. At PP it would be similar. Maybe you want to go at the top of the hill on the last lap, or maybe even a little after that (I recall a slight false flat in the wooded bit just after the hill). Make a 100% move and commit. That means, once again, absolutely no work until then.

    What does doing no work mean? It means that if you fall asleep on the bike because it's so boring then you're doing it wrong because you're only saving about 80% of the potential savings out there for you. If you go into a coma then you're getting close to saving the right amount of energy. It means NOT moving up on the hill, never ever, because that means you're climbing faster than someone else and you should never, ever climb faster than someone else. You should climb slower than everyone so that you are using less energy, less power (the exception being the 3 pedal stroke mini-hills). It means you need to move up before the hill, of course, else you'll shell yourself on the hill itself. However you should be moving up without making efforts. Coast past people when the group slows, soft pedal to gain the last spot or two, and repeat. Slowly reaccelerate if the group starts to filter past you. No sudden efforts. No tense muscles. No talking. No nothing. It should be an extremely conscious decision to move your hands or to reach for your bottle. That's wasted energy if you don't need to do it. When in doubt you should move back. 40 riders ahead of you? 20 behind? Ease up. The only thing you have to do is stay out of the fragmented back, where the gaps between riders start opening up and therefore you save less energy.

    Tuck on the descent. Move up as much as possible. At PP I could typically descend through the group until I was near the front at the left bend. I pedaled a bit at the top to give me some momentum but the rest of it was simply coasting. At CP it's harder because of the swoopy curves and some of the false flats, but you should strive for the same effect. The only time I wouldn't drift back on the hill at PP was on the last lap.

    When your reminder goes off with 5 miles left in whatever race then you should try and wake up. Ideally, and I'm actually being serious here, you should need to warm up a bit. Your legs should be so unused that you'll feel the need to warm up. This is a good sign - if it's not like that then you've been riding too hard. Your heart rate should start creeping out of the 120s-130s (assuming that when you line up it's about 100 and your max is 180 or 190 and you like racing at 160-170). Shake your legs out. Stretch a bit. Yawn. Take a sip of water. Zip up your jersey. Get ready to race.

    Worried about getting caught behind a crash? Well take that gamble. At CP and PP you rarely have stack ups that actually block the road. Gaps? Let other people close them. Shift a bit or fumble with your bottle, get the others to do the work.

    If you sit at the back of a Cat 3 race or an M45 race you'll see some of the smartest, strongest, and most savvy riders around you. We're talking riders that between them have dozens of national titles. Why? Because the "sit near the front" thing is a myth. Sure it applies to a technical course, maybe a tight downtown crit in the rain. But for most races, and for me I'm talking literally every single race I do each year, it's absolutely not necessary to be at the front. Sometimes I get caught behind crashes, like in the big races (Harlem, Somerville), and it actually affects my race. Much more often I don't get caught behind crashes.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  2. #52
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,657
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I forgot to add the "real story" example. I had a teammate that wasn't a great sprinter and he had a hard time in breaks. He could barely do about 25 mph on his own. He was a great help to me, he'd chase things (short pulls), he'd look after me in the field, etc. But for him to do well it would take a special effort. I gave him a watered down version of the above post as a pep talk. He went to PP. He saved and saved and saved and saved. On the last lap he went on the hill (I told him to wait until after the hill but I think he got impatient - I couldn't be at the race due to work). He got caught in the sprint. He almost made it and his move defined the final part of the race.

    Unfortunately his dad got really ill shortly after and my teammate moved away so no victory story.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  3. #53
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Western MA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    12,396
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by hack View Post
    I'd say bottom line (and I've gone through this over the past year, so it's all relatively fresh for me) is to race more, learn as you go, and try out all aspects of racing. Don't over think, try to over strategize, or collaborate too much. Mix it up, sit in and try a field sprint, try get in a break if you see one roll off, etc. Don't worry about coming in last or getting dropped if you're trying new things. Placings right now (you're not on a team or working for others???) don't matter too much, so don't let your ego be affected by your results.
    This is exactly what I try and get Cat5's to understand, but somehow it comes out as telling them not to race to win.

  4. #54
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Location
    The Gunks
    Posts
    1,575
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    If you sit at the back of a Cat 3 race or an M45 race you'll see some of the smartest, strongest, and most savvy riders around you. We're talking riders that between them have dozens of national titles. Why? Because the "sit near the front" thing is a myth. Sure it applies to a technical course, maybe a tight downtown crit in the rain. But for most races, and for me I'm talking literally every single race I do each year, it's absolutely not necessary to be at the front. Sometimes I get caught behind crashes, like in the big races (Harlem, Somerville), and it actually affects my race. Much more often I don't get caught behind crashes.
    This is absolutely an accurate and valuable observation, but in a field where there is significant diversity of fitness among the riders (like a 5s race), or a course with challenging features (like an actual hill that is not in a city park), half the field can get gapped off pretty easily.

    The bottom line is, you only win races if you are better than everybody else at something. That something might be pure watts, or w/kg, or your jump, or your 1-minute effort, or your ability to put out a decent 3-minute effort over and over again, or your cornering, or your ability to conserve energy, or your ability to read the race situation and react faster than everyone else. Where you are right now is a process of figuring out what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are.

    IMO trying to figure out how to social engineer a break is focusing on the wrong thing. Figure out what you can do, and then try to leverage that into racing success.

  5. #55
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Folsom, CA
    Posts
    1,475
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by shovelhd View Post
    This is exactly what I try and get Cat5's to understand, but somehow it comes out as telling them not to race to win.
    Eh, it's tough to buy into when you're in the thick of things, but much easier to understand once you look back.
    Cat 2 upgrade status: never

  6. #56
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    Hoboken, NJ
    My Bikes
    Trek 1.2
    Posts
    672
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    This is absolutely an accurate and valuable observation, but in a field where there is significant diversity of fitness among the riders (like a 5s race), or a course with challenging features (like an actual hill that is not in a city park), half the field can get gapped off pretty easily.

    The bottom line is, you only win races if you are better than everybody else at something. That something might be pure watts, or w/kg, or your jump, or your 1-minute effort, or your ability to put out a decent 3-minute effort over and over again, or your cornering, or your ability to conserve energy, or your ability to read the race situation and react faster than everyone else. Where you are right now is a process of figuring out what your strengths are and what your weaknesses are.

    IMO trying to figure out how to social engineer a break is focusing on the wrong thing. Figure out what you can do, and then try to leverage that into racing success.
    Copied my stream of consciousness replying to a strava comment - did the rockleigh race last night. There were 4 neutral laps because the race organizer thought 2 people were trying to race early, and people were pissed off. I thought the race would end early because of this, but he actually made it longer than usual to make up for it, so I burnt out.

    In the middle of the pack I get the accordion effect so I like to be in the front, so I put myself in the wind too much to move up throughout the race, and can't hold wheels like I should. Also I'm too slow for the last lap to contest a sprint, and my wife was there, so I decided to try and jump two different times with about 10 minutes to go and got in the front for a bit, maybe try a break with some, that got caught, blew up, got back in the field but then with 3 minutes to go I was towards the back and just rolled in. Figured I should podium or might as well be in last, pack finishes don't help in the 4's.


  7. #57
    Senior Member Wylde06's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    NW Ohio
    My Bikes
    Cannondale Six13
    Posts
    880
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    pack finishes don't help in the 4's.

    Sure they do, if there are enough people in the race

    Quote Originally Posted by rulebook
    Category 4 to 3: 20 points; or experience in 25 races with a minimum of 10 top-10 finishes with fields of 30 riders or more; or 20 pack finishes with fields over 50. 30 Points in 12 months is a mandatory upgrade.

  8. #58
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Austin (near TX)
    My Bikes
    rkwaki's porn collection
    Posts
    26,112
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    You can battle the accordion by gradually backing off before a corner or before a short kicker, then go through the feature at a normal speed. You'll pass some accordion victims, and end up doing a lot less acceleration. The tough part is determining how much to slow and back off. Don't slow down below the ideal speed through the feature. If you would ideally enter a narrow corner at 22mph, don't slow below that speed -- which means you may have to back off pretty early, when the pack is still doing 25mph. Same with a kicker -- if you would ideally come off the top at 19mph, don't slow below that speed, then take the hill at that speed and rejoin as the accordion tightens back up. Also, "feel" these speeds -- don't stare at your display, as you don't really need to know the numbers.

  9. #59
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    8,041
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    +1

    I got sick the morning of my last collegiate crit last year, and as we were on a course that climbed 4000 ft in 50 miles (2x a 5 mile climb at 5%) the previous day, i was quite toast for the day. The crit was on a very technical course as it was a 6-corner course without any long straightaways, and the pace was high from the get go as people wanted to shred the field. I started off near the back and after trying to move up for five minutes, i decided to just tail ***. It was actually easier on me, and i did basically what WR suggested above, scrubbing off speed just a bit before a corner and let a gap open, and by the time i rounded the corner, i'm either right back on the wheel or moved up a few spots. This allowed me to save up enough energy to put in a few digs near the end to get a top 5 on the day.

  10. #60
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,657
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    "In the middle of the pack I get the accordion effect so I like to be in the front, so I put myself in the wind too much to move up throughout the race, and can't hold wheels like I should. Also I'm too slow for the last lap to contest a sprint, and my wife was there, so I decided to try and jump two different times with about 10 minutes to go and got in the front for a bit, maybe try a break with some, that got caught, blew up, got back in the field but then with 3 minutes to go I was towards the back and just rolled in. Figured I should podium or might as well be in last, pack finishes don't help in the 4's."
    Have you tried sitting at the back? Personally I like being in the middle of the field the least. The front is great but my very short fuse is lit the whole time so I only have 2-3-4 minutes before I'm done, and really it's more like 1-2 minutes. The back therefore becomes the default best spot for me.

    Also do you drive regularly? That's not zinger for those outside of NYC since in NYC it's easy to get around without a car. I ask because some of your driving habits may be affecting your field riding skills. I practice a lot of what I do racing while I am driving. Obviously no contact but more importantly I'm not constantly on the gas or brakes, especially the brakes. I try and ease into the turns such that even if I have approach a turn faster than those in front of me I don't have to brake to keep from hitting the car going through the turn slowly. It's tail gunning but in cars, not on bikes. It teaches patience, it teaches to not jab the brakes instantly, and it also helps you learn how early you can ease off the gas/pedals. I work on cornering lines also, very key. Practice looking up and forward, not at the road in front of me. Etc. Anyway if you can drive efficiently in traffic then you can sit at the back efficiently. Obviously I'm not fiddling with other things in the car while doing this but for me it's a great way to practice cycling stuff without being on the bike.

    Remember that every single effort you make reduces the reserves you have for the finish. I don't know how many times I can say that. Every single time you think, "Oh, well, I'll just give it a go because I don't have a sprint" you're actually killing whatever sprint you have. You can kill it much more effectively by making even more pointless moves and really assure yourself that you have no sprint. Or you can actually beat sprinters at their own game. That link describes a race where a distinct non-sprinter (he has a hard time winning a sprint from a break) led out and beat a national crit champ at an important race. Check out the video thread, collin puts some stuff up. He isn't passing everyone in the sprint but when he launches his effort early and basically leads out the sprint he can hold position really well, netting him some good (points) places.

    I made similar efforts to those you made I'd also have no sprint. It's not that I don't have a sprint, it's that I prefer not to use it up before the actual sprint pops up. Your 100% move might be something other than a field sprint (like a break, or going at 1k to go) but even so if you make energy wasting moves the only thing you're doing is wasting energy. I've never done Rockleigh but a training race is exactly the place to work on things like this. Go next week and make a move at 0.8 miles to go (or 1.2 or whatever). Do absolutely nothing until then. See what it's like. Lead out the sprint. Practice sitting on wheels.

    Remember for breaks to work you need to get separation. Unless the speeds are super high (28-32 mph) a 10 second gap is about the absolute minimum gap you should have before you think of yourself as "in a break". Until then it's just a small gap, and if the gap is less than a length or three then it's not even that. 15 seconds is better, and about 25 seconds makes it hard for even a hard chase to catch you quickly. At Bethel, for example, the field will easily close 10 seconds in the last lap (catch the break at the bottom of the hill), 15 seconds with a bit of difficulty (catch the break halfway up the hill, the field sprinter may win), 20 seconds is hard (break may win but the field usually has a bunch of places in the top 10), 30 seconds is done. If you've made a bit effort and you're 10 seconds ahead of a totally strung out and chasing field, that's not bad. If they're curb-to-curb, on the tops, talking about soccer, and you're killing yourself to hold a 10 second gap, forget it. Photo op, wait for the flashes, and then sit up. I once sat up when I had a 20 second gap - it's the only time I think I should have kept going. Below that, no, no regrets.

    Finally, unless your max power output is in the 350-400w range, you should have the speed to be up there in the final bit of a Cat 4 race. 28-32 mph is not massively fast if you're sitting on wheels properly. Fine, the sprint may blow you out, but there's no reason you shouldn't be able to stay in the field, somewhat comfortably, at those speeds, for the last lap or so. In fact along with the pedaling you'll find yourself coasting and braking even, if you're in the field.

    If you can't stay in the field even for free (drafting) you may not be doing the right type of speed work. Just like making pointless moves is pointless, not working on speed will always limit your potential as a racer. My non-sprinter friend turned into a killer leadout man because he worked on his sprint. If I were you I'd be doing high speed efforts when I'm in, say, CP, PP, 5th Ave, whatever, 20 - 60 seconds long. Hit and hold 30 mph. 35 mph. Out of saddle, 35+ mph. After these efforts if you can go faster than 10-12 mph then you absolutely definitely went too slow. 6-8 mph is good. If you can't pedal then realistically you've gone a touch harder than you should have, but you're close. If you can't pedal while you coast down from 35 mph to 6 mph but then you can just barely soft pedal at 20-40 rpm that's fine, that's perfect.

    You can work on your sprint/speed at races even when you're not in contention. For me, getting shelled regularly at training races, I'll do a practice sprint the lap I pull out. If nothing else it lets me practice judging where to jump, how far I can go, shifting while sprinting, rocking the bike back and forth, and doing a good bike throw. This way when it's time to sprint for real I have an idea of what I can do and how to do it. It's one less unknown for me.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  11. #61
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
    My Bikes
    Cervelo S2, Ultegra 6700
    Posts
    1,544
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by echappist View Post
    +1

    I got sick the morning of my last collegiate crit last year, and as we were on a course that climbed 4000 ft in 50 miles (2x a 5 mile climb at 5%) the previous day, i was quite toast for the day. The crit was on a very technical course as it was a 6-corner course without any long straightaways, and the pace was high from the get go as people wanted to shred the field. I started off near the back and after trying to move up for five minutes, i decided to just tail ***. It was actually easier on me, and i did basically what WR suggested above, scrubbing off speed just a bit before a corner and let a gap open, and by the time i rounded the corner, i'm either right back on the wheel or moved up a few spots. This allowed me to save up enough energy to put in a few digs near the end to get a top 5 on the day.
    Of course, this only works if you are tailgunning, otherwise people with come around and fill the gap, leaving you on the back. Which is a fine place to be much of the time if you race solo and aren't trying to get off the front.

    Works great for rollers. Turlock Lake Road Race was almost continuous short rollers for a few hours. First entire lap I sat just off the back coasting down, carrying speed up and connecting most of the way up the next roller, ease up over the top, repeat. It was super easy, and apparently the front guys were working their asses off!

  12. #62
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    teh Jersey
    Posts
    16,796
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by carpediemracing View Post
    I practice a lot of what I do racing while I am driving.
    I put three guys into the curb this morning on my way to the market.

  13. #63
    Super Moderator
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Tariffville, CT
    My Bikes
    Tsunami Bikes
    Posts
    12,657
    Mentioned
    24 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    I put three guys into the curb this morning on my way to the market.
    Heh. I actually lolled.

    I did share some of my "pro-commuter" secrets with my brother. One is to play the clueless driver when someone is trying to barge their way into your lane. I'd adjust the radio or diligently check the wrong side mirror for cars, all while boxing in the other car.
    "...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson

  14. #64
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
    My Bikes
    Cervelo S2, Ultegra 6700
    Posts
    1,544
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Gramercy View Post
    If you didn't have teammates in a race and wanted to get a break going or get people to work for you during a race, what would you say to them while sitting in the middle of the pack? Is it better to move up the side and tap people on the shoulder and say nothing? Would they even know what that means? Would they know I'm trying to move up and get a free ride to the front, but then not come with me on a break? I know a lot of these have to be trial and error, I'm just wondering what others have experienced here.
    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    Next time you do a crit, watch how the 5's race, then stick around and watch how the 1/2's race. In Cat 5, everyone has been told not to ride at the front but to be in first 10 riders, so you get a bunch of guys trying to be near the front but not actually on it, focusing on that to the exclusion of actually racing. And when someone launches a half-assed attack* and everyone jumps on their wheel, two things happen. First, no one follows it up. Second, the caught rider thinks, damn, that didn't work, I guess attacking is pointless, I'll wait for the sprint. If someone actually gets separation and has a couple other riders with them, they will struggle to efficiently get a rotation going.

    *This is the other problem, attacks in Cat 5 are more likely to be ineffective. An effective attack generally should either come off the front of the group with a huge speed differential in order to gain separation, or if the rider can't jump that hard, be prolonged enough to build some separation that way. A lot of riders in Cat 4, 5 and even 3 simply don't go hard enough to get away, and/or will make 5 hard pedal strokes, look over their shoulder and ease up.
    I've had some guys ask me to go with them. Cat 5 once a guy did this near the front, pedaled medium-hard (say 600 watts) for like 10 seconds, then wanted me to pull through... um... we never even got a gap of one bike length...
    Cat 3/4 race, a guy asks me to follow him. He spends some time moving toward the front, waits, then kinda jumps a bit but maybe only 2 mph faster than the pack. We got a gap of like 5 meters, if that.
    Some guys do know how to attack, but these ones I mentioned... no one would even know the intention was to attack... well, except that he was talking about it the whole way up to the front so everyone heard him.

    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    In the 1/2s the pattern is different. You're basically going to see an hour of dudes beating the crap out of each other. Attack goes, gets marked and brought back. Another attack goes. Same thing. First guy has recovered by now, so marks the third attack that goes. Three guys get clear and start trading short pulls right away. Maybe they stick it, maybe they don't, but if breaks are more likely to form at the higher categories, it's because the tactics are much more aggressive, attacks are more effective, and the guys who want to get in a break do not try once and give up.
    In the 5s, it was like you said, a few attacks here and there and a lot of riding along trading pulls at 25 mph.
    In the 4s, there are occasionally a few counter attacks.
    In the 3/4 races I've done, there are usually some 10 to 15 minute periods of attack after attack, break, chase, attack, attack, then a lull.
    So I'm seeing a trend towards an entire race of, well, racing.

  15. #65
    **** that mattm's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    CALI
    Posts
    11,636
    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    Works great for rollers. Turlock Lake Road Race was almost continuous short rollers for a few hours. First entire lap I sat just off the back coasting down, carrying speed up and connecting most of the way up the next roller, ease up over the top, repeat. It was super easy, and apparently the front guys were working their asses off!
    did u win?

    im not a fan of tail gunning, unless you really want to get caught behind crashes and miss the break..

    its one thing if you're sandbagging/small field and have no problem moving up when you need to, but otherwise you should stay in the top half of the field at least. it's easier up there anyway.
    cat 1.

    blog

  16. #66
    Senior Member aaronmcd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2013
    Location
    SF Bay Area, CA
    My Bikes
    Cervelo S2, Ultegra 6700
    Posts
    1,544
    Mentioned
    18 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    did u win?

    im not a fan of tail gunning, unless you really want to get caught behind crashes and miss the break..

    its one thing if you're sandbagging/small field and have no problem moving up when you need to, but otherwise you should stay in the top half of the field at least. it's easier up there anyway.
    Hahaha no, I don't win. But I did conserve a lot of energy, which I later wasted by attacking the field over and over and over when there was a break up the road 10 miles from the finish.

  17. #67
    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    207
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    A good example of a successful attack based on tactics was Leif Hoste's attack on the Valkenberg in the 2006 edition of the Ronde Vlanderen.
    (1) it was uphill and the footage clearly shows Hoste setting himself up.
    (2) He needed an opening but out of sight of both Boonen and his lieutenant.
    (3) By the time he got clear he was moving much faster and only Boonen and Cancelera could respond, Boonen the only one to bridge.
    (4) Hoste didn't look back or voice his intent, It was just jump and go full Gaz.
    (5) Neither Hoste or Boonen looked back they just kept the effort high to gain additional time.

    This is a few years ago, but regardless it's a great showcase of how to attack, but most importantly when. There was a multitude of factors which in a Cat 5 race aren't going to be present but the importance is the tactical sense that made the break successful.
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

  18. #68
    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    207
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    I've had some guys ask me to go with them. Cat 5 once a guy did this near the front, pedaled medium-hard (say 600 watts) for like 10 seconds, then wanted me to pull through... um... we never even got a gap of one bike length...
    Cat 3/4 race, a guy asks me to follow him. He spends some time moving toward the front, waits, then kinda jumps a bit but maybe only 2 mph faster than the pack. We got a gap of like 5 meters, if that.
    Some guys do know how to attack, but these ones I mentioned... no one would even know the intention was to attack... well, except that he was talking about it the whole way up to the front so everyone heard him.
    Not sure what's up with this, it's not like being at a club and saying " Hey let's go get a drink " Are there like Los Lonely Boys that need social interaction in a Cat 5 race? (lol)
    Seriously racing is as much about keeping your cards closed as much and as long as possible. This is another instance of where there is still much to be learned in the lower Cat's for much of the pack. That can be beneficial as if they don't have an idea of what or where to be, then there will be hesitation. Hesitation means Gaps, which also means you don't want to be behind those wheels.
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

  19. #69
    fuggitivo solitario echappist's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Arlington, VA
    Posts
    8,041
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
    Of course, this only works if you are tailgunning, otherwise people with come around and fill the gap, leaving you on the back. Which is a fine place to be much of the time if you race solo and aren't trying to get off the front.

    Works great for rollers. Turlock Lake Road Race was almost continuous short rollers for a few hours. First entire lap I sat just off the back coasting down, carrying speed up and connecting most of the way up the next roller, ease up over the top, repeat. It was super easy, and apparently the front guys were working their asses off!
    by tail *** i meant sitting in the last 1/3 of the group, not literally at the tail end of the group

  20. #70
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Location
    Midwest
    Posts
    154
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by waterrockets View Post
    You can battle the accordion by gradually backing off before a corner or before a short kicker, then go through the feature at a normal speed. You'll pass some accordion victims, and end up doing a lot less acceleration. The tough part is determining how much to slow and back off. Don't slow down below the ideal speed through the feature. If you would ideally enter a narrow corner at 22mph, don't slow below that speed -- which means you may have to back off pretty early, when the pack is still doing 25mph. Same with a kicker -- if you would ideally come off the top at 19mph, don't slow below that speed, then take the hill at that speed and rejoin as the accordion tightens back up. Also, "feel" these speeds -- don't stare at your display, as you don't really need to know the numbers.
    I race back to back criteriums several times each summer... So my first race I usually sit in, sit in, tailgun, sit in some more... and try a late attack... just to make sure Im not burned out for the next race.

    WR has the technique spot on about coasting in to corners and going through a regular speed... It's almost like you drop the wheel in front of you and take your regular corner. If you do it smart, you can ALMOST eliminate the accordion...

  21. #71
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    ohioland/right near hicville farmtown
    Posts
    4,796
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Talking about possible moves to random riders? Wut? I just attack, and know someone will follow me, or i'll get a gap, and eventually someone will brdige. The biggest issue low cat guys have are 1) easy races so attacking does have the same affect 2) too weak of attacks. You want to break away on the flats? Do 35 mph for a minute or so to get separation 3) giving up way to fast. Oh i only have 3 bike lengths of a gap? Whoops better just sit up now, not like i could possibly snap the elastic when the one guy chasing gets tired...
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  22. #72
    Senior Member Moyene Corniche's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2014
    Location
    Connecticut
    Posts
    207
    Mentioned
    3 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    When you attack it has to be an all out effort, and it has to be from a few riders back. the few riders back will see you go but they will be delayed as they have to get around and get a clear opening. As for the front guys, if you are moving at 15+kph when you exit then they have to jump that much harder, especially if they've been at the front for a while. usually those guys look and wait for someone else to chase. Which can mean more time and distance for you. That's why when you go it has to be all out, preferably where the terrain is in your favor.
    You keep the effort up until you have at least a 200 meter gap. Don't look back, if they are going to catch you, they will, looking back slows you down and takes the focus away from thinking about staying away. IF no one has bridged then settle in and ride it at the highest level you can sustain for as long as it takes to get to the finish or if 2 or 3 are bridging, ease up let them catch and then go into a rotating pace line at the same effort, benefit being is that you now have 2/3rd of the work at 30% less expenditure.
    The latter is really the highest percentage for staying away. But everyone has to equally contribute. Another factor that sometimes needs a boost is tactical diplomacy in the case one ride is just sitting in. Get him to work or dump him.
    Ah.... Voila les Cannon ... !!

  23. #73
    Packfodding 3 caloso's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Location
    Sacramento, California, USA
    My Bikes
    Ridley Excalibur, Gazelle Champion Mondial, On-One Pompino, Specialized Rock Hopper
    Posts
    30,301
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    My best attack ever was a mistake. I was trying to pull a teammate up to the front and then lead him out. There was about 700m to go and I was pulling him up the left hand side. Just as I got to about 3 back, a guy attacks from the right and I think I better keep going. I missed his wheel but in accelerating I drop my guy. But he does a smart and selfless thing and soft pedals through the next to last turn. I have a gap now. I never catch the first guy but I held on for 2d.

    I'd have never planned on trying to go from 700m but it worked out well and now I try to look for opportunities like that.
    Cyclists of the world, unite! You have nothing to lube but your chains!

  24. #74
    Senior Member shovelhd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Western MA
    My Bikes
    Yes
    Posts
    12,396
    Mentioned
    42 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Originally Posted by Moyene Corniche View Post
    When you attack it has to be an all out effort, and it has to be from a few riders back. the few riders back will see you go but they will be delayed as they have to get around and get a clear opening. As for the front guys, if you are moving at 15+kph when you exit then they have to jump that much harder, especially if they've been at the front for a while. usually those guys look and wait for someone else to chase. Which can mean more time and distance for you. That's why when you go it has to be all out, preferably where the terrain is in your favor.
    You keep the effort up until you have at least a 200 meter gap. Don't look back, if they are going to catch you, they will, looking back slows you down and takes the focus away from thinking about staying away. IF no one has bridged then settle in and ride it at the highest level you can sustain for as long as it takes to get to the finish or if 2 or 3 are bridging, ease up let them catch and then go into a rotating pace line at the same effort, benefit being is that you now have 2/3rd of the work at 30% less expenditure.
    The latter is really the highest percentage for staying away. But everyone has to equally contribute. Another factor that sometimes needs a boost is tactical diplomacy in the case one ride is just sitting in. Get him to work or dump him.
    The 30 second rule has treated me well. No looking back for 30 seconds.

Page 3 of 3 FirstFirst 123

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •