Dunbar

And I pointed out that steroids won't increase aerobic power directly like EPO. They allow you to recover faster and thus train harder. Read this if you are genuinely interested in how cyclists use them instead of just apparently getting into an e-argument.

Really, the physiological effect is always the same, but the way in which it is used can produce different results. Testosterone and other anabolic steroids increase the muscle’s ability to synthesize protein. Muscle fibers become larger and repair faster as a result. When used during weight training cycles, this can lead to massive, powerful, builds.

However for cyclists, at least according to the testimony, the focus of testosterone use was on repair. Athletes would use the steroid after hard days of racing to speed and improve recovery.

Racer Ex 

This goes out to all the science geeks out there.

https://www.facebook.com/SithTV/videos/910146682363907/

Doge

I was not trying to play dumb before. In your fire example there is air and there is fuel and as you stated VO2max requires both. Increasing air without the fuel does nothing unless there was less that could be utilized and as a 70VO2 is good enough to ride the tour, and he was talking pros I didn't think that was the case. So a pro rider (what the reporter said Greg said Ferrari said) I expect had pretty good hematocrit already (45??) and a body used to that level of O2. Today I don't think pros can get away with rising that much over 50. Maybe off season go 60, try not to die and build muscle then go lower race season. Just a 20% EPO alone increase on a current pro is something I would like to see real data on. Given the UCI easily measurable 50 hematocrit limit I'd think that data set would be from over a decade ago.

Enthalpic

Why are you ignoring the paper which discusses the known blood boosting effect? Would you like another?

Haemostatic effects of supraphysiological levels of testosterone in normal men. - PubMed - NCBI

"There was a sustained increase in haemoglobin concentration and haematocrit, without any change in platelet count."

Enthalpic

Fuel and air explanations break down quickly. Unlike fire the body needs enzymes to carry out reactions and they are not limitless, secondly oxygen has to diffuse across membranes etc which is relatively slow. So the oxygen uptake by muscles is not limited by "fuel" but instead by the mitochondrial density (enzymes) and capillary density (O2 diffusion into muscle).

Doge

VO2 max peaks in teens.

Dunbar

I'm not ignoring anything, rather telling you how/why professional cyclists say that they used these drugs. I don't think they'd have any reason to lie while under oath once they've admitted to doping . Studies on sedentary middle aged men don't tell you much about how a drug will affect a highly trained endurance athlete. Here's another observation from the abstract of that study:

The observed changes were consistent with mild activation of the haemostatic system during initial treatment with testosterone.

Mild changes in red blood cell count aren't going to raise your FTP 50 watts like EPO will.

Dunbar

These numbers were all from the early days of doping. They didn't even have a test that could detect EPO back then. I have no idea what you can get away with today and still beat the tests. On the mountainous stages of stage races (to take air resistance out of the equation) you can get a pretty good idea of the power output of a rider if you know their weight. In the Lemond interview he talks about how you can see the power going up 20-25% in a few years using this method. You had 70kg guys doing like 500 watts for 45-60 minutes which is just unheard of naturally. He also talks about how in one of his last races the peloton stopped twice for trains and still ended up averaging over 30mph for a 100+ mile stage. He suspected they were doping and got confirmation when a new team member came over from a different team and told hime exactly what they were taking.

Doge

I think they were doping and that doping helps. I was questioning a 70-90 VO2 gain (28%) from EPO only and training for someone that is already a pro. An 80VO2 does not mean you are faster than a 70VO2 different person. There is age and a whole bunch of stuff that figures in. It is also not a linier correlation to power. Long term Power can go up while VO2max goes down - and usually does due to age.

ridethecliche

Hey, we just learned about this in med school.

Woo!

Ygduf

keep your educations out of here. I want street science and lubed dropouts in this thread.

shovelhd

You keep your dropout away from me, you prevert.

Ygduf

Our waterheater is busted so I haven't had a good shower in days. I actually am a dropout and this is triggering to me as a currently greasy dropout. Reported.

Enthalpic

I purposely chose studies that didn't include exercise, as your main argument was that steroids did nothing except improve recovery. If I had used studies with exercise you would have attributed all the gains to the exercise and the improved recovery thereafter.

I still stand behind my statement that steroids alone will increase FTP (body comp changes, strength increases, blood boosting); and I agree that the increase would be much greater when combined with hard training.

globecanvas

Ygduf

you got the reference

dz_nuzz

Dude, 12 chocolate chip scones. I would totally eat that.

Homebrew01

A little tip for the geeks. When working in databases, don't accidentally change all the logins for all the customers in the entire database.
If you do, make sure you have backups .... They come in handy.

topflightpro

I finally got around to signing up for a track certification class. I'm going on Saturday, and it looks like it's going to be in the low 70s and sunny.

If this goes well, I likely will be shopping for a new bike in early 2016.

TheKillerPenguin

I see the term slam tossed around on strava a lot. What the crap is it? Is slam the new kitchen sink?

Ygduf

slam can mean whatever you want it to mean

https://www.dennys.com/food/breakfas...wn-grand-slam/

TheKillerPenguin

I had the hipster version of that this morning, with the biggest pieces of french toast I've ever seen.

The first time I ever went to a Denny's I had a ball of butter on my pancakes as big as a scoop of ice cream which was wayyy overkill, so I moved it off onto a side plate and the next time the waitress came over she asked me if I wanted more butter.

globecanvas

If you're referring to the Finkraft Slam, it means "pedal harder than humanly possible for 90 minutes and trigger a weekly BF discussion." Although I note that today it was a mere 4.6 w/kg.

TheKillerPenguin

There's a few dudes I see that post SLAM workouts, not just zwift based. Just curious if it actually stands for something or if it's just homies flexing

TheKillerPenguin

Also if it's dudes just trying to look badass why not call it Thundermurder Watt Dumpster ride or something