revchuck 

Unfortunately, they won't just replace the bearings anymore, you get the upgrade or you're on your own. They changed that policy just before my bearings died. The upside is that you get the new internals and a year's warranty.

Wylde06

Should have been a little more clear, this was the last race of the series/season. It was more of a "hey, I will upgrade you guys right now if you want" than a forced upgrade. No one had a problem with the guys still being in the 4s (that I knew of)

topflightpro

I can never find this rule, but I remember a couple years ago, USAC instituted a rule that says you cannot be more than 2 categories different in different disciplines, so a Cat 1 on the road can be no lower than a 3 in cross.

I knew a woman who was a 1 in cross who got an automatic upgrade to 3 on the road. I think she would have preferred to stay a 4 on the road, and really doesn't bother with road racing anymore.

And I just assumed that automatic upgrades came at the end of the year when renewing your license.

shovelhd

A rider can request a cross-grade between road disciplines, like for like. Cat1 road can request Cat1 CX, but not the other way around.

Mandatory upgrades are handled by the LA. Some are strict and some are liberal. If you feel strongly enough about a sandbagger then let your LA know, en masse. They will force the issue.

USAC is starting a project to completely overhaul their IT systems. There is no reason why upgrades could not be handled systematically, other than the current systems cannot handle it. All the information is there. LA approval can be a part of the process. This is not rocket science. Hmmm. Maybe they need a project manager.

grolby

That's bizarre; there isn't any rule that mandates an upgrade based on cross-disciplinary categories. Like @shovelhd already said, you can request a cyclocross upgrade based on your road category, i.e. if I were just starting out in cyclocross, I could say, I'm a 3 on the road and start at CX 4, skipping cat 5. But I couldn't use my Cat 2 in CX to skip Cat 5 on road or track. Seems like someone just didn't fully understand the rules, if this woman you know was upgraded to a road 3 based on her CX category. There's a local cross racer here, very strong, who earned his Cat 1 in cyclocross midway through last season. He still started the road season as a Cat 3 and had to earn the upgrade to Cat 2. Now he has to do the same thing if he wants to be a 1, which I assume he does. Road is pretty much top of the USAC upgrade hierarchy, not necessarily because it's regarded as more important (though some do regard it that way, I'm sure) but because rider skill contributes much more to the safety of everyone else in the race than it does in MTB or CX.

carpediemracing 

I think it'd also be significant to save/track penalties.

There's no system for tracking penalties right now. Once your penalty is served you're clean. No past record. I've said this before - I could get a few guys together and we could take turns basically wiping out the field on the last turn of a crit, go in first and second wheel, second wheel guy just jams on his brakes and swerves 3-5 feet to the inside or outside. 20 day suspension for abrupt movement. We do it again. We take turns wiping out the field. According to the rules, according to the way officials have punished past offenders, this wouldn't be a season ending kind of thing. To do that on a Sunday, then again 2 Tuesdays later, and then keep racing? Okay, fine, maybe in total each of us takes out 3 fields, maybe 12 races total (4 riders in cahoots), that's most of a season, maybe 3 months of crits. Plus by then a third of our competitors will be skipping races due to injuries etc so toward the end of the season things ought to be easier. But in different kits, different teams officially, maybe even different regions (where I am I think New England, NY, and MidAtlantic)... it would be a devastatingly effective way to cheat to win races.

You'd also need to be a socio/psychopath to do it.

globecanvas

Obviously this is just a thought experiment, but in the age of social media I think you get 2, maybe 3 tries tops before everybody in the country knows you you are.

carpediemracing 

Hm. I think at some level yes. However social media existed when the stuff happened to me. I think, though, that people are more likely to record and post stuff now than, say, 6-7 years ago. I haven't posted some nutty stuff because I didn't want to.

shovelhd

Not quite true. Officials have a Rider Reporting Tool. There's also the fine system. Since the fines are paid to USAC they have a record. What they proactively do with the data though, who knows.

canuckbelle

I'm struggling to figure out why she'd be happier as a 4 than a 3. If she's a 1 in CX, she should be able to handle 3 in road really easily. 4 is the most restrictive category for women: there are lots of 123 and 3/4 races, so 3 is the most versatile. But a 4 can't do the 123 races. So she'd have MORE options as a 3 than a 4, including the same set of 3/4 races she'd be doing as a 4. I just don't get it. (Remember: women start at 4--there is no 5 for us.)

gsteinb

It is much harder to upgrade to 1 on the track than any other discipline. It's also harder to get courtesy bumps due to the skills required. I've seen legit cat 1 riders working to get out of the 5s, and losing.

Harlan

Well the guy I posted about is no longer in my cat 4 field. He went to the 3 field, but is still in the 4/5. I'm sure it'll get fixed but that's kinda funny.

Today begins the longest weekend ever.

Retirement party tonight. Nutmeg tomorrow where I race at 9AM, wife at 3PM and we have to get up at 4:30AM to make it there. Purgatory on Sunday only 1.5 hours away. I'm pretty sure I won't get dropped...in the crit.

shovelhd

Agreed. It's also the only discipline that still has a formal mentoring and training program.

carpediemracing 

I should be there for the 3 race at 2 PM.

grolby

Interesting. I think @queerpunk might be a 1 on the track. Sounds like something I might want to talk to him about.

queerpunk

One of the reasons it's harder to upgrade to a 1 on the track is because it requires results at different velodromes, and there are a bunch of barriers to that. It requires travel, and an event worth traveling to is likely to bring some decent competition, and there are few opportunities each year (both due to available races, and anybody willing to make the trip halfway across the country for a weekend race). It's not like racing weekend crits where you pile into a car, drive two hours, and can do that a couple of times a month while you go from top tens to podiums and waiting for that breakthrough W. So yeah - hard to get your points on the track.

As far as the skill crossover goes, I haven't seen Cat 1s struggle to get out of Road Cat 5s, but I've definitely seen Track 2s struggle as Road 4s and 5s. Similarly, I've also seen road 1s and 2s struggle in Track cat 3s - and I know some CXers who are, like, in the top twenty in the country who don't exactly wreck **** on the road or track.

I think ultimately, there's variation on what carries over from discipline to discipline. Each rider's different distribution of skills means something else in a different discipline. Some people have some kind of strength/fitness/ability that is broadly applicable, and others have some kind that is more narrowly applicable. I know this to be true for myself - I'm a 1 on the track but a very meh Cat 2 on the road (wasn't exactly crushing cat 3 crits to get my upgrade).

The carryover upgrades are nice for people when they definitely make sense, but there are situations for some riders when they don't actually make sense (I know a bunch of track directors that won't offer those upgrades, because the rules for riding on the track are different and when people don't know 'em or don't learn 'em, problems happen - pretty much exactly what Gary was talking about with courtesy bumps). Sometimes a big category disparity across disciplines looks weird but just plays out like that, and it's okay.

grolby

Thanks. It seems crazy that USAC allows for P/1 road riders to be upgraded straight to track Cat 2 and Cat 2 road riders to go right to track Cat 3. Maybe I can see them allowing skipping cats after doing the requisite velodrome safety course and series of races as a 5, but the one time I went to a track I was impressed with the sheer amount of rules and etiquette there is to learn. It's really not much like road racing at all.

Harlan

Nice! I'll be there getting the wife's numbers pinned on at that time. Or sleeping in a tent that I might bring.

mike868y

phew, i know who's wheel i'm following into the finish.

carpediemracing 

I'll be there with the Missus, Junior, and Pops. We'll set up about 100m before the finish line, near the sidewalk and under the trees but not next to them (there is usually poison ivy around a couple of them). I'm guessing we may get there 1-ish if we're really early, 1:30 might be more like it.

carpediemracing 

heh.

queerpunk

actually, i don't think that's in the upgrade guidelines anymore, and i'm not sure if it ever was. recently an official told me "As far as I know, there isn't really any formal USAC equivalency for track like there is for cx and mtb."

it's interesting - in our local scene we have a lot of people who race pretty exclusively on the track, and many for whom track racing was their first foray into racing, riding in tight quarters, etc. it was interesting to see some of their reactions when they started racing crits: along the lines of "holy ****, is nobody taught how to ride a bike in road racing?"

because, on the track, there are some rules about how you move - and at many tracks (especially ours) those are taught quite firmly before people race.

(hashtag) not all tracks. i recently raced a madison at a different track and was shocked to see a number of teams violating one of the basic rules of madisons, which is that if an exchange is happening in front of you, you pass it over the top. you do not go underneath an exchange and you do not split somebody's exchanges. that is madison 101. but this other track doesn't really have a culture or history of teaching or training people to ride madisons - it's up to them - and as a result, well, there was some patently dangerous stuff happening. and there were crashes.

tl;dr learning the rules of a discipline is important and one of the things i like about track racing is that there is both a more universal agreement on what the rules are, and there is often an organized method for teaching the rules to new participants. and i like when track directors pay attention to riders' ability to ride this discipline regardless of their category in another.

grolby

Oh, it's there. But it says "with approval of USA cycling." In practice, it's probably quite unlikely it would be allowed. I hope.

mattm

Fwiw I was only allowed to jump to cat 3 on the track (as a 1 on the road), and had to take a "velodrome rules quiz" in order to get it.

Each velodrome might have their own rules though; this was at Hellyer.

dz_nuzz

BRB. I need to go drop some upgrade requests.

Fear the carnage coming to the Cat 3 CX and Cat 3 Track races near you. I am allowed to wear body armor, right?