shovelhd

These are Cat5 tactics. Nobody I race with gets fooled by anything that has been mentioned so far.

waterrockets 

Yeah, I've seen it completely shatter the field. Shred it with guys falling off continuously. But the top ten doesn't change at all (assuming domestiques are doing the shredding).

We tried something different one time on a hilly 5-mile loop road race. Hit every hill super hard for the first two laps. 80 riders dropped to 25 riders in no time. Then the guy who usually attacks... attacked and won solo. This stuff mostly just hurts the weak and the instigators.

We were frustrated that we didn't use our normal rotating attack strategy. Sending pairs off until the right group sticks. Always leaves plenty of people to cover the other contenders, and gets us some horsepower in the winning break. The other games were a waste of effort.

Creakyknees

This is the key point for the OP and other newbie racers to take away.

And it highlights one of the key things about road racing as distinct from criteriums - the concept of making (or letting) the other guy blow his legs before you have to use yours. If you're the guy doing all these pointless mini-attacks and he's not, who's going to have fresher legs after mile 60 / 80 / 100?

jsutkeepspining

Okay so as the resident ex-junior of the group, sounds like your son has a bit to learn. First, junior gears shouldn't be an excuse. If you can spin fast enough to succeed spend some time learning to spin (aka be able to spin at 150+ rpms for extended periods of time, not just sprint. Hell even after a season on big boy gears i can spin at 180+ rpms in a sprint). Secondly, his idea of going to the front and slowing the race down in the corners will get him pushed off the road, especially in any real p/1/2 race. I know i would come right around and him and push him out of the way, what do you think a UHC or other pro team rider would do? It sounds like your kid is relatively fast, don't let it get to his head, becasue trust me, there are always faster people, and more aggressive people.

jsutkeepspining

Yeah, I inadvertently did this in one race where i followed the eventual winners attack on the frist lap. We shattered the field into 13 guys, but guess what, all those 13 were pretty strong, we only got rid of the pack fill 2s. Unfortunately i then flatted, and had to run an aluminum wheel with carbon breaks on a course will a downhill/tight corner (aka can't break didn't want to die got 11th).

Doge

So a kid slowing the race down would cause you to push him out of the way.

And all those that thought it was important to comment on a technique including USCycling official didn't think this was worth commenting on?

jsutkeepspining

Yeah, less will cause someone to push you out of the way in a real race.

shovelhd

Contact is not against the rules, however dangerous riding is.

Doge

You are talking about contact. I'm not, that was not in the post. You are talking about dangerous riding, I excluded that in several posts.

How do you rule on this: slowing down and pushing. Here is the quote again:

1N9. Pushing or pulling among riders is prohibited in all races except the Madison and then only between members of the same team. No rider may hold back or pull an opponent

I do need to find where slowing down is against us cycling rules, maybe you can share that.

I went out of my way in several posts to say what he does is not dangerous. This followed several posts on braking.

Doge

What is a real race? How much money did you win in real races this year?

shovelhd

That quote refers to track rules. They're not talking about argy bargy they mean that you can't push a rider forward, say in a team pursuit, to gain an advantage.

I don't have the rule book memorized, but contact and dangerous riding is normally a judgement call by the official. You normally won't see it written out verbatim.

I can can tell you going forward that USAC will be rolling out a Bad Rider program and software to support it for 2015. Any rider issues that have been reported to USAC will be available to any licensed official. However most rider discipline is handled locally via warning, relegation, and disqualification.

Racer Ex 

I think all Cat 5's should have to race track for a year. Take off people's brakes and take away their gears and they actually have to plan ahead vs. react.

This is all part of my massive velodrome building plan BTW.

MDcatV

a kid slowing down in a race would cause me to pass him, i also suspect he'd get some good old fashioned verbal motivation to not do it again

waterrockets 

This vicarious badass posting is getting annoying.

Say a rider wins a bunch of races. Say someone told him to do something stupid, and he does, and he still manages to win a bunch of races. Is the stupid advice "taught" to the rider still a good way to race, or is it just a matter of the rider being so strong that he can overcome stupid advice? Is the advice any more sound if the rider's father jumps on the Internet and argues with a bunch of 20 year veterans and USAC officials about it?

jsutkeepspining

Me? only probably 800 or so this year based off of my limited racing, but trust me if you're kid starts racing p/1/2 races were there's a decent p/1 showing, everyone will few him as that dumb junior. Now if he grows up, and rides like a normal racer he'll be fine, and no one will care, but stupid **** like you're describing is why junior have a bad name in the upper categories.

Doge

Track racing starts on page 50. 1N9 is in the general section on page 47. "No rider may hold back or pull an opponent by any part of his or her clothing, equipment or body.". It follows the Dangerous rider paragraph. The word pushing is spelled out verbatim and I have seen that rule applied in road races as well as the 1N8 on Dangerous Rider.

jsutkeepspining

Let me say it this way, pushing and shoving are pretty common place once you get to a certain level. Acting dumb causes problems, don't act dumb, or you might get pushed out of the way. It's similar to how if you were holding up traffic all day, and everyone was mad at you, there's at least one psycho ready to shoot you.

jsutkeepspining

Also having been a cocky dumb junior, I would be less inclined to be a dick to you son if he made a dumb post (he's 16, of course he thinks he's the ****, and of course he doesn't really know what's going on), but as the father you should be less star struck. I thought i was the **** when i was in a similar position, you know who never made me think i was unbelievable? You guessed it, my parents. You shouldn't try to defend actions when they are wrong. It's your job as the father to make sure your kid is acting in an appropriate manner, and not to wildly brag about him.

Doge

Lets go back to what I said in my first post.
These posts came first starting with the OP - and the source of breaking - play on words on causing a break :-)

My post:
It is about a last corner in the crit. It is to be done so nobody will come around you or push you off. Next stop is the finish line. It is not to be done dangerously - everyone is expecting slowing/braking and it might even be 15 mph according to other posters.

Creakyknees

brake = a device to slow your speed
break = to fracture

mattm

#offseasonfighting

aaronmcd

Reminds me, I just got a track bike, and I've ridden it around/commuted a few times. I quickly found myself continuously planning escape routes in case of unpredictable cars.

waterrockets 

Ok, thanks everyone. This thread has run its course. I'm locking it.

Oh. Wait. I'm not a mod any more.

shovelhd

You had me there for a second.

carpediemracing 

As mentioned before the thread has run its course. Locking.