TysonCook

At a race this weekend there were several groups racing at the same time (Cat3, 4/5's, and 5's as well as woman's pro/1/2). I got out the back near the KOM and was caught by the 3 leaders of the woman's pro/1/2). The official for their group passed me at the KOM top, and I stayed about 20 ft behind their group. But when I found a good place to pass, to join back up with my grouping (cat 5) the official said I couldn't pass, and I would need to stay behind him (which ended up being ~14 miles).

The ladies were on their 2nd lap of 5, and ended up passing ~5-10 of the cat 5 guys on our 3rd of 3, which fell behind as well. Eventually we ended the race, but we not allowed to pass (basically neutralized) for the entire lap.

Is this common? If I had known this, I would've gone harder. I assumed that they would allow us to pass (safely) when we started downhill.

Thoughts?

YMCA

I call bs, as long as the ladies didn't try to jump your wheel
You were f'ed

Ygduf

can't pass 3 people? if you weren't racing on a divided mup, you were ****ed. But c5, you should expect to be ****ed.

dz_nuzz

Sometimes officials make bad calls. Story of the year goes to a friend / competitor who was a really strong dude. Flatted right out of neutral, gets a wheel from neutral support, asks if he can get drafted back to the pack. Neutral says no prob and then an official pulls up and tells him he can't, he then had to ride the 70+ mile circuit alone and finish 45 minutes OTB and this was at the Green Mountain Stage Race and he was a serious GC contender.

Official made a bad call, they are human to. (Doesn't mean it doesnt stink.)

mattm

Wait why should he have been allowed to get a ride back to the pack? Isn't that against the rules?

asgelle

Two good examples why it makes sense to spend a small fraction of the time spent training to familiarize yourself with the rule book.

Doge

I see this a lot as I often drive as neutral support and have a radio (not as an official) to hear. Sometime the officials just screw up. I have tried to get definitions of when to pass in the car for breakaways, when groups are neutralized and so far its the official that decides on the spot.
However prize money is often used as a determiner. If the race is paying 10 deep, then until hearing otherwise you are expected to stay behind 10th place. Similarly if 3 women Pro 1/2 are off there is money at stake. If you were in a position where no money was at stake, that may have affected the decision. Still, sometimes the officials just screw up.

asgelle

I don't get your point. There's nothing in the rules prohibiting the passing of a follow car.
(on the other hand the rules deal clearly on when a field being overtaken should be neutralized)

YMCA

the OP was chasing back after being popped on a climb
this is normal racing, just like crosswinds
he was screwed

but reality, everyone wants their own damn race
so we get events with too many categories on course close to each other
this stuff will happen

chalk it up to another experience and move on

Doge

The follow car would have nothing to do with you. Follow cars are often told what to do based on where the money is.
Just like: If that group of 3 women were likely to win money - and you were not likely to win money then they (the money) would get right-of-way.

Officials don't like the chance of groups mixing. If you flatted in front of them, or did anything to affect the outcome of professionals, that would reflex on the officials.

asgelle

The rules say that if one field is being overtaken by another, the leading field will be neutralized until it is passed. There is nothing in the rules limiting a field or even a single rider from passing a slower group. The official does not have the authority to affect some racers in order to provide a better experience to others. This is a perfect example of why racers should know the rules. It's difficult on the road, but if in the OP's case, the official tried to stop him from passing the women he should have asked what rule gives that authority. Knowing there is none, I would have gone ahead and passed then argued after the finish if anyone said anything.

Doge

The OP was passed by the women. He was neutralized (for 14 miles) "group" and off the back of his group. While I think that was wrong/harsh not to allow him to pass again, I think winning an argument against an official that the rules were not followed would be tough.

If...Cat 5 was catching Pro 1/2 women then you would have what the rules are talking about. But it was the other way around from the OPs post. He was caught.

The money was simply about explaining why it would be very unlikely for officials to allow a dropped off-the-back of their own group rider (racing for no money) to possibly mix-in with places 1-3 in a pro race.

mike868y

"If I had known this, I would've gone harder."

yup, ok.

island rider

That's against the rules. Which is why guys get penalized or relegated for doing it in pro races.

asgelle

There were two separate events. The OP was caught by the women. He was neutralized. The rules only allow neutralization until the faster group passes, not for 14 miles. Then after the women passed, and everyone was back to racing, the OP was catching the women. The same rule applies. The slower leading field should have been neutralized until the faster one passed; i.e., the OP should have been allowed to pass the women. The rules stop one group from taking pace of another; they don't limit passing.

It's not that hard to challenge an official if you know the rules (and it's always a good idea to travel with a hard copy).

TysonCook

...I had chased down a lone lead rider off the front and caught him, but blew up on the climb, and went out the back. I was caught literally on the KOM line by the ladies. My big problem was I could easily pass on the downhill after the KOM, as well as the flats, maybe get back to a 3rd group, etc... but instead had to sit behind them.

Not a huge deal as I had already blown up, I was just looking for clarification for the future.

I was on the podium the day before, so I still came out of the weekend feeling pretty good :-)

Thanks for the advice!

aaronmcd

Sometimes the field will get neutralized when a group passes but there is a break off the front. This really sucks, because everyone in the chase/pack is in contention, and then the break gets a free 30 seconds. Damn officials, haha.

I got dropped on a climb once and chased for miles to catch back on. In the meantime I caught "my" group and started drafting, then when some oxygen finally hit my brain I noticed I was riding next to a woman... oops. I passed, chased on the descent, and had to pass a follow car. Glad no officials told me to hold up and chill off the back (or caught me with the women haha).

furiousferret

One of my races we were in a chase pack of 5 as the Masters group lapped us, 3 people latched on, two of us just sat there screaming obscenities. Both of us were too embarrassed to report them over 20 something place.

shovelhd

I am a USAC official. Were you told to neutralize by a motoref or a commissaire's car? There are many good reasons to keep you out of the other field. Number one is safety. You are a Cat5 and they are P/1/2/3. If the field in front of you is across the road, there is no way to pass safely. Number two is scoring. It is difficult to pick out an odd number series inside of the main number series. Finally, you are not allowed to be racing in any field other than your own. If you were passing a large group, you would be racing in the Women's P/1/2/3. That is against the rules. If you went off on your own after being warned not to pass then I would have relegated you. Next time, don't go off the back, or wait until it strings out and then pass safely. And don't ever argue your case during the race. Finish, and lodge a formal protest with the Chief Judge or Chief Referee no later than 15 minutes after results are posted.

As for a neutral providing a tow back to the back of the field, technically it is not allowed. If an official sees this, you may be relegated or DSQ. However, it is a common practice. Smart neutral support drivers know how to pace you pack to the pack without breaking the rules. You are allowed to ride through the follow vehicles to regain the field.

asgelle

And as an official I can tell you the rule is it is illegal to take pace or work with another field. Passing would not constitute either and certainly not "racing in"

Did you miss that there were only three women? It's hard to understand a situation, even with a yellow line rule, that a single rider can't pass a group of three safely. Also, since this was the second of five laps, I don't think there wold be any problem scoring.

shovelhd

Yes, I did miss that there was only three women. We're saying the same thing.

globecanvas

I've been paced back to the pack by a moto ref after a crash. so there is definitely some latitude in how that rule is enforced. She dropped back and waved me behind her. It saved my race, obviously, even though motopacing involves a lot more exhaust fumes than I had always imagined. I think I finished 7th that day. (Just saying "she" will probably ID the ref to shovelhd.)

Ygduf

I dunno, maybe he was racing for Marc Pro Strava. They do that ALL THE TIME.

shovelhd

She's awesome. I worked with her at Tokeneke.

Tech Director

I would challenge anyone on the thread to show which rule in the 2014 USAC Rulebook applies to the overtaking/neutralization portion of the quote above.

As for the OP's original argument, as an official I would certainly not allow him to mix in with the three women's leaders - that is very clearly against the rules (3B5). Sometimes the challenge when actually working on the road is the "yo yo" of dropped riders passing and being passed by riders in another field. If there is ever any doubt, I am always going to prioritize the leaders from one race over the dropped riders from another. Not saying that it was done well in this case - just pointing out a possible reason.

When I teach motor officials we spend between 30 minutes to an hour going over the complexities involved in one field passing another - it is not as easy as you might think. Some required items to think about: Status of each race? Is there a break? How far to the finish? How big are the fields? I'll give you two examples and let you tell me what you would do:

Scenario 1: P12 Men are catching the Women's Cat. 4. The P12 race is all together and has five 8-mile circuits to go. The Women's race has a break 30 seconds up the road and is 5k from their finish. Men have 75 riders in their race, women have 20.

Scenario 2: P12 Men are catching the Women's Cat. 4. The P12 race has a small break 45 seconds off the front and has five 8-mile circuits to go. The Women's race is all together and has two 8-mile circuits to go. Men have 75 riders in their race, women have 20.

Discuss....