Doge

Is that the best way to win?
I watch these videos in several places and see nicely controlled groups of riders following their lines through the corners. They mostly pedal at the same time, take a predictable line and seems like it comes down to the sprint.

carpediemracing 

I think "good bike racers are smooth" is a better way of phrasing it. It's just easier to study a crit than a RR because of the course repetition.

Sort of by definition a racer needs to be a good racer (tactically) to be okay in a crit. They need much less to do well in a hilly road race or a time trial.

If I see good crit rider that can climb, meaning a skilled bike racer that is also very strong/talented/etc, then that's a really good bike racer.

Too many strong riders don't race well in crits because they use their far superior strength/fitness to make up for their lack of tactical/technical skills. It's evident even at the high level of sport, especially with women, where the skill levels seem to be further apart. With men it seems that most of the pros are pretty good.

Exceptions include Levi (unweighting saddle in the middle of a hard turn, for no reason - watch the descent where he's off the front in the Tour when he raced for Gerolsteiner, might have been 2006?) and Michael Rasmussen (watch the 2006 Tour when Floyd is off the front - in the field there's a mobile road block on a particularly sinewy descent and I'm 99% sure it's Rasmussen), some others.

In the doping era it seems that super strong riders managed to make it even if they didn't ride particularly smart.

The best combination to have as a rider is to be really strong/talented but to race like a really weak/untalented racer. This allows them to make astonishingly strong moves when it counts.

For example having the lowest average power in a race would be a good goal. Name a number 20-40% below whatever a typical average is for a racer (given a flatter race, large enough field). I know I did a race where I averaged 170w. A new racer (his first crit) did significantly more work, maybe 250w or so (based on a teammate's thoughts, no hard numbers). I won. The other guy didn't. What if he'd averaged 50w less during the race? How would that have affected his results? In the 2011 Cat 2 Tour of Somerville I avg about 175w. I can't remember if that included the last half lap, when a bunch of us (2/3?) were held up behind a crash. At any rate it's a huge race, 175w, 27.5 mph. It's efficient. Unfortunately for me it's also not by choice since I'd have a hard time finishing a race and averaging 200w. If I had an extra 100w avg… that would be nice.

gsteinb

Doge confuses me. He claims a low USCF numbers, argues points on training and tactics, and then asks a seemingly basic question he would seem to know the answer to having been around the sport….

it depends.

shovelhd

Smooth, efficient riding is a benefit in any race, but the best way to win? Any way I can.

Grumpy McTrumpy

Bahati has a bunch of videos that include winning or coming close to it.

Smooth? You decide. To me they seem pretty violent at times.

YMCA

Supple and smooth do not win races, but if you are choppy and chaotic your chances are lessened considerably.

topflightpro

I feel the same way.

Doge

50412 - lower than most, not as low as some...

It does. On weight, fitness, technology...
Mostly there were not electronic recordings of races to analyze on the computer then...
A fit lighter rider (that was not me) benefits by anything that causes others to have to accelerate as much or more than they do.

I'm questioning the benefit of continuous pedaling, or holding a line.

Add wind and the non-crit riders have another friend if they don't hold a nice straight line.
I saw this early year:
The 805 Criterium is a 3 day crit omnium and gets the pros often mentioned in these threads. The winds were blowing 10-30mph this year.
On Saturday, the lead riders blocking the wind and being closest to the windward side of the course. There were breaks, but they came from a more tradition attack. Later with the break already done - riders moved more leeward.
On Sunday, the leaders started more on the Leeward side of the course (like the thing you'd get yelled at for doing in a group ride) and the peloton broke up (we've seen this in the TdF too, but not exactly a crit). Several of the tradition sprinters were not there at the sprint.

I think there was some team director rethinking Sat night.

gsteinb

TMI

Maybe it's your writing style, but I don't really think I ever know what you're going on about. It's tough to ascertain if your trolling, clueless, actually asking questions, or trying to tell guys with more experience, higher categories, and pages upon pages of results and titles how to race. So, that said, in addition to brake checking as a strategy you'd like to advocate for not holding lines as a means of gaining an advantage? How many degrees of separation are we from the thread where we discuss team enforcers to crash out rivals?

Wind impacting a race isn't exactly shocking.

As far as smooth, what you describe in the OP sounds more like mid tempo in a road race than the crits I participate in or watch. Grumpy used the word violent, and yeah that's about it. Uh, as far as effort goes…not actually in bringing violence to others.

mattm

That's it, I'm selling my power tap.

Cdr, can you have your buddy estimate my power from now on?? Thanks!

globecanvas

The aforementioned new racer does have a power meter. His FTP is 335 @ 158 lbs (probably about the same weight as CDR). I was the guy who estimated 250w for that crit and if anything I bet that is a low guess. Actually I think I estimated 270w and even that is probably low.

He is absolutely not somebody you would ever call "smooth", and he has never won a race. He's not dumb, he's just impatient, like 95% of all new racers. I think it's very hard for naturally strong guys to learn patience.

He probably will someday. I forget what we are talking about though.

carpediemracing 

I know you're being sarcastic, but still, in all seriousness… It's actually a member here. He knows his teammate, knows his numbers, so made an offhand guess. I rounded down, to tell the truth, because I wasn't sure if the actual guess was maybe a touch high.

I'm sure that if you guessed at a number you'd be within, say, 20-30w of your actual average. For me it's pretty easy - 160-200w, it's a pretty inclusive number for a given race I might do, so if I say 180w I'm hitting virtually any race I've finished within 20w. If I felt okay at the end I'd guess 170w, if I didn't then I'd guess 190w, if I couldn't sprint then I'd guess 205w, and if I got shelled I'd guess 220w for the portion up until I got shelled. Those are pretty solid numbers based on a few years of races.

The important part was that the guess wasn't 150w or something similar to my race number. It was much higher. Also, after the race, the teammate looked pretty tired. He was in the wind all the time. First crit he's done so I don't blame him. Crit here.

In a race I didn't quite win my avg was 187w. My teammate, that led me out, was 280+w. I did a crap ton of work for me in that race, and I was pretty cooked after. I was also about 3.1w/kg in that clip, 155-160 lbs, give or take, 220w FTP.

rkwaki

It's like anything else. There are times to be smooth and times to use brute force. To fight your way through a pack of 100+ riders uses both finesse and power. I tend to error on the side of brute force and aggressive riding but I'm bigger and meaner than most.
Off the front or in a break smooth and consistent laps allow you to pull away. In the pack there are times where you have to ride 'sketchy' to give yourself a little room.
I've said it many times, I use 42 cm bars and can come through a 44cm hole at 30 mph. To do that you better be butter smooth in your pedal stroke or everyone is going down.
There are times in crits that you have to throw elbows, lean into guys or flat out bump them. Watch Rahsann's video from Manhattan Beach (???) he tells you, everytime the camera jerks that is someone coming into him.

Doge if your son is going to continue to progress he is going to have to learn both the beauty and the beast...

carpediemracing 

This is pretty different than the original post.

The benefit of holding a line is the longevity of the lives of those around you. Or at least their skin, equipment, etc. Or, in other words, because most of us aren't psychopaths/sociopaths we tend to hold a line of sorts, within, say, less than a foot variance either way. The ones that consistently radically alter their line intentionally with blatant disregard for others should be suspended/ejected after an initial stern talking to. Obviously if there's a crash, car plowing through the field, deer jumping into the side of the field, etc, then people do what they need to do.

I don't understand how this is even a question, unless you're talking about something else, like where on the road to hold your line, versus just holding a line as a general principle.

Continuous pedaling… not sure what you mean by that. Most people soft pedal or coast. It's only when a rider gets on a trainer that they start not coasting as frequently.

mattm

I'm doing some NCC races next year. Teach me how to be a beast!

I'm gonna need it..

Doge

I started looking a race speed data from the Euro Kermes and noticed crits are typically faster and smoother.

Changing momentum takes energy. The more it can be done the more those are fit have a chance against sprinters and the more interesting the race can become.
That's what I'm saying. But even more action that cause room, make riders take a longer route, cause gaps and then exploit them.

hack

It seems some of these threads are an indirect attempt to suss out tacit approval for less than straight up racing. "Cool to brake check through corners?", "Cool to change line in turns?", "Cool to ride like a ****?", etc. Might not be the real intent, but that's the way I read them.

edit: lols, "s paz" is filtered?

Shoot...I'd take knowing how to be a beast at the local crit or even early birds.

Andy STi

I wanna be a crit racer!

shovelhd

Fudgy can teach you

Racer Ex 

Rule, meet exceptions. One of the ex '84 Olympians I race against is as smooth as a magnetized rusty chainsaw blade thrown into a pile of welding slag. Then there was this guy:



But in general, I'd agree. If nothing else smooth usually means less road rash.

YMCA

which is why I never say always

mobsters have lived past 60 and smokers have lived to 100

BTW - Abdu was smooth, but was "line deviation challenged"

Andy STi

But that would make him a coach....

MDcatV

what the hell is this thread about?

Andy STi

How cool Abdu is, obviously.

MDcatV

a-ha!