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  1. #1
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    efficiency of "pulling up" or "pedaling circles" (paging RacerEx)

    GCN video pertaining to loafers etc:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNedIJBZpgM#t=416
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  2. #2
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    They didn't show his power tho!
    cat 1.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    They didn't show his power tho!
    The test was done at the constant speed of 20 km/h and 6% grade so the power would be the same with either set of pedals. Early on they said the power required was about 300 W.

  4. #4
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    what's the
    Code:
    TL:DW
    there

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  5. #5
    Making a kilometer blurry waterrockets's Avatar
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    I did a test on a 17% grade. 18-22% less power with running shoes vs. clipless pedals/shoes/cleats.

  6. #6
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    I watched the video. My conclusion: If you ride your bike on a tread mill in a laboratory, flat pedals are as good as clipless.

  7. #7
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    I heard a test existed with same everything (pedals, clips, shoes) at tempo power and compares a the power 1o'clock to 5o'clock position of a stomper vs. a spinner and the entire pedal circle. Anyone seen that?
    I recall ...
    They found it didn't make much difference - almost like the crank arm argument. Or...there really is no better pedal stroke.
    Mountain bikers distributed power more evenly through the circle.
    Pros put a larger % of the power in the 1-5 o'clock than rec.

  8. #8
    Senior Member hack's Avatar
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    ^ I read something similar. I think I found it on Steve Hogg's Site one day. If I recall, he discourages one-legged drills.


    edit (not the same study, but some good discussion in the comments):

    PEDALLING TECHNIQUE ? Which is best? Bike Fit Feet Steve Hogg's Bike Fitting Website
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  9. #9
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doge View Post
    They found it didn't make much difference - almost like the crank arm argument. Or...there really is no better pedal stroke.
    In the end it's an aerobic sport.

    I imagine for a real test one would need to ride each platform (pun unavoidable) to and equal level of familiarity and comfort.

    Anyway, clipless provides for nice bike control, confidence, and safety. I don't think we all prefer it in a mass hallucination/placebo.

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  10. #10
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    the video is also useless because it's steady state riding.. which has little to do with the races I do.
    cat 1.

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  11. #11
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    the video is also useless because it's steady state riding.. which has little to do with the races I do.
    Crit racers are smooth.

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  12. #12
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    Before this becomes one of those 5 pages of posts over what I didn't say (I know you tend to read my posts) I wanted to clarify.
    -A cyclists needs good shoes and cleats. It is an aerobic sport, but one where power can be multiple times higher than tempo in sprints or climbs. Cleats are needed.

    But, at least for the RR so much time is spent enduring and trying not to get fatigued and most aerobic systems are not taxed other than those annoying attacks. I think the low power tempo stroke should be looked at. My hunch is the square / less round strok may be better.

    Early 80s I worked on this trainer attachment called the spin coach (working for Inventor for Inventors - not under any brand at the time) - basically a place to put your other foot so you could do one legged intervals. It was very effective improving spin. Everyone was selling spin then. As the guy building it I got good at spinning (200+). But, I really don't think it made me more powerful.
    Last edited by Doge; 10-31-14 at 06:11 PM.

  13. #13
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    ^ Looks like a good old Racer Mate Turbo Trainer. I still call my fluid trainer a wind trainer, does that make me old?

  14. #14
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Andy STi View Post
    ^ Looks like a good old Racer Mate Turbo Trainer. I still call my fluid trainer a wind trainer, does that make me old?
    If you know Racer Mate - then yes. Turbo Trainer was a different brand (copy).

  15. #15
    Senior Member furiousferret's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doge View Post
    I heard a test existed with same everything (pedals, clips, shoes) at tempo power and compares a the power 1o'clock to 5o'clock position of a stomper vs. a spinner and the entire pedal circle. Anyone seen that?
    I recall ...
    They found it didn't make much difference - almost like the crank arm argument. Or...there really is no better pedal stroke.
    Mountain bikers distributed power more evenly through the circle.
    Pros put a larger % of the power in the 1-5 o'clock than rec.
    When I started really caring and analyzed all the Garmin Vector metrics, I came across a similar publication. Essentially the downstroke is so powerful they other stuff doesn't matter much. The other tidbit of the study was that after 2 weeks of cycling for 20 minutes a day pro athletes in other sports had better sprint power than pro cyclists. Of course, other pro athletes don't have to ride 80 miles a day to train and cannibalize their legs, but the point was you don't need to train an efficient pedal stroke.
    judging from what you post on here it seems having a powermeter has caused you to focus on ewang numbers without much a focus on developing actual fitness.

  16. #16
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    So, making 300W takes the body about the same amount of effort as making 300W...

    Would be useful to also see max power level available with each technique over some period of time.

  17. #17
    Senior Member Northwestrider's Avatar
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    Rivendell Bicycles long ago published an article with a similar conclusion called the Shoe's Ruse The Shoes Ruse
    I found it an interesting read, and consistent with my experiences. YMMV

  18. #18
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    That was a good read. Sometimes when my cleats got loose I'd also have auto adjustment forefoot/midfoot for those hills and spinning.
    Shimano (or their VP is) is saying their platform DA pedals result in 5 more Watts than the others with smaller platforms. I'll be placing my order shortly.

  19. #19
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post

    Anyway, clipless provides for nice bike control, confidence, and safety. I don't think we all prefer it in a mass hallucination/placebo.

    Mmm I dunno bout that... I usually ride mtb with flats and sneakers and I do a helluva lot more technical stuff than on the road bike and have no problems with control, confidence, safety.

    Ask any bmx'er or trials rider or downhiller if they prefer cleats or flats.

    In fact there's a strong counter-argument that cleats are less safe - ask any cleated newbie who's fallen over due to failure to unclip.

    WRT "mass hallucination/placebo" ... there are plenty of those already well documented in real life so it's hardly a convincing argument if you're suggesting that's a reason that people prefer cleats. We all know newbies who buy their first road bikes, get sold all the gear including cleats/pedals, and are barely even capable of operating a beach cruiser, much less a racing bike. But they'll happily repeat what the guy at the LBS told them about "efficiency" and "safety"

    Adding also a sample size of 1: I've ridden 60 mile gravel grinders on my 29er with sneakers and flats and stayed with the leaders group the whole way. So it's definitely not accurate to say that flats are so much less efficient as to render a competitive rider non-competitive. That must also mean then that flats are pretty darn close to cleats in terms of real-world demands of a road race situation.
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  20. #20
    These Guys Eat Oreos Creatre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
    The other tidbit of the study was that after 2 weeks of cycling for 20 minutes a day pro athletes in other sports had better sprint power than pro cyclists. Of course, other pro athletes don't have to ride 80 miles a day to train and cannibalize their legs, but the point was you don't need to train an efficient pedal stroke.
    That doesn't really come from not needing an efficient pedal stroke, but more of the type of muscles developed. As you said, those other athletes haven't been developing the endurance portion.
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  21. #21
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    Mmm I dunno bout that... I usually ride mtb with flats and sneakers and I do a helluva lot more technical stuff than on the road bike and have no problems with control, confidence, safety.

    Ask any bmx'er or trials rider or downhiller if they prefer cleats or flats.

    In fact there's a strong counter-argument that cleats are less safe - ask any cleated newbie who's fallen over due to failure to unclip.

    WRT "mass hallucination/placebo" ... there are plenty of those already well documented in real life so it's hardly a convincing argument if you're suggesting that's a reason that people prefer cleats. We all know newbies who buy their first road bikes, get sold all the gear including cleats/pedals, and are barely even capable of operating a beach cruiser, much less a racing bike. But they'll happily repeat what the guy at the LBS told them about "efficiency" and "safety"

    Adding also a sample size of 1: I've ridden 60 mile gravel grinders on my 29er with sneakers and flats and stayed with the leaders group the whole way. So it's definitely not accurate to say that flats are so much less efficient as to render a competitive rider non-competitive. That must also mean then that flats are pretty darn close to cleats in terms of real-world demands of a road race situation.
    Thanks but this seems to have zero to do with actual road racing...
    cat 1.

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  22. #22
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mattm View Post
    ... actual road racing...
    a gravel road is still a road.
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  23. #23
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creakyknees View Post
    a gravel road is still a road.
    With the way UCI races are going - that may become Road Racing...

  24. #24
    ride lots be safe Creakyknees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doge View Post
    With the way UCI races are going - that may become Road Racing...
    It already is.

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  25. #25
    Elite Fred mollusk's Avatar
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    A few years ago I had to ride a 10 mile or so TT in sneakers because I forgot to take my cycling shoes.

    I ended up taking off the TT bars because I couldn't ride the bike with them and not having shoes clipped in. It was too unstable that way.

    So I rode Merckx style in sneakers without toe clips.

    It sucked, but it wasn't that much slower than I would have expected otherwise.
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