caloso

This suggests that you'd get a similar benefit by riding a fixed gear. You can't truly coast on an FG, but that doesn't mean you're not always applying full pressure. Sometimes you do "coast" except that the pedals just push your feet around. I'd be curious if anyone here has a powermeter on a track bike and could compare.

Enthalpic

It's not just heat or boredom. Muscle recruitment pattern are substantially different.

The effect of turbo trainer cycling on pedalling technique and cycl... - PubMed - NCBI

Ygduf

It's all aerobic in the end...

I wish I knew which muscle was which there!

unterhausen

it's 90% half mental. There is a growing body of scientific work that is showing that on the short term effects of nutrition during exercise are mostly controlled by the brain. E.g. the studies that show you can just rinse your mouth with energy drink and it's just as effective on the sort term as drinking the energy drink. It wouldn't surprise me that high levels of output are very similar, which is part of the reason that we train with interval work.

Hermes

I have power at the track. Riding fixed gear on the track is different from the rollers or trainer. The power profile can be very spikey due to the turns and bowl shape of the track. It is flat at the black line but one has centrifugal force through the turns that increases the G forces. For example, there is a 100 watt differential at Velo Sports Center in the turns at the relief line and a 200 watt plus variance at the balustrade.

Also, there is always power coming around due to the forward momentum of the cyclist so it is easy to ride that momentum for brief periods of time. In fact, it is possible and desirable during pursuit at Velo Sports Center to float a couple of pedal strokes coming out of the turns and ride the centrifugal force and then re-engage on the straight with no reduction in speed.

Heathpack 

Glute is ass muscle, biceps is back of thigh, gastroc is back of calf

Vastus & Rectus are parts of quadriceps, ie front of thigh. Ant tibialis is front of calf.

Thus treadmill is using more muscles of the back of the leg- ie hip/ankle extensors & knee flexors

Trainer is using muscles on the front of the leg, ie knee extensors & hip/ankle flexors

caloso

Confirms what I thought. Thanks.

tetonrider

this is true, riding a trainer IS different than riding outdoors. many people do fail before they get started by having insufficient airflow or less mental engagement (both of those problems are easy to solve), but that doesn't deny the physiological differences.

it's also open to some debate as to whether the different recruitment pattern from, say, riding a fixed gear is applicable to riding a geared bike.

there are some activities indoors that translate to better riding outdoors, and others that don't. i have a point of view on this informed by my experience, but it largely depends on what someone is trying to accomplish in the bigger picture.

tetonrider

man...i've spent a whole bunch of time lately trying to figure out the layers in the hip & leg in order to isolate some issues. other than what you've typed above, it turns out to be super complex to isolate root causes of issues, particularly in the hip area. i thought it would be much easier. even trained people (not me!) have a hard time saying anything definitive.

Heathpack 

Who have you talked to about whatever it is? My yoga instructor is actually the best at identifying issues with specific muscles or joints, believe it or not. He also does Thai Yoga, which is basically a form of massage. That part is awesome, because sometimes my yoga sessions devolve into a massage session if I am very sore. Obviously a little more hands-on than your average yoga session. He's also pretty good at coming up with a way to stretch or release or increase the range of motion of whatever the problem spot it.

Thai massage - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Ygduf

Few things appeal more to me than a nice hand-on thai massage and release.

tetonrider

i appreciate your response and the suggestion. the number of people i've worked or things i've tried is lengthy (variety of medical specialists, ortho, back, hip...massage...strength...stretching...activity, no activity). my body got crunched a few times this year; the soft tissue stuff doesn't always materialize for a while.

isolating the pain is not too hard, but determining the cause -- and more importantly, what to do to fix it -- is very difficult.

on the medical front, i can't yet get some of the imaging i need due to hardware in my body, so i'm having all of that pulled. "wait and hope" is not my strong-suit, but i'm kind of in that position.

Heathpack 

Lol, so what you are saying it is beyond the scope of my yoga dude?

tetonrider

sounds like your guy might be "the junk whisperer."

mollusk

I love Yogi Berra quotes!

First of all there are many different types of intervals. Sets of one minute intervals are way different from 2x20's.

That being said at the end of a set of intervals you should be totally toasted. Plan ahead to finish them not too far from home nor too close to home. A short spin before arriving at home is good. A long ride home sucks.

Heathpack 

Totally understand the first part of your comment, yes of course there are many different types of intervals. And perhaps I did not use the term correctly. Maybe this wasn't an interval (because there was only one work period). But is the second part of your comment actually true? After all, there are tempo intervals, right? After which you would not be totally toasted? Keeping in mind that I am asking a legit question, not trying to argue semantics.

revchuck 

For VO2 max, sprint or similar intervals you should be toast. Tempo shouldn't bring you to that point...unless you're on a trainer.

shovelhd

I'm pretty toasted after 3 hours of tempo on the road.

mattm

that's a long interval.

Doge

Try training...

merlinextraligh

Only seems like it.

FrenchFit 

I run intervals three times a week, occasionally on a treadmill. The things is, when you do a structured run you have a longish warm-up and then ladder up to tempo - but when you treadmill there is a tendency to jump into tempo/speed work pretty quickly -- too quickly. I suspect it's the same in your training, you may get good and warmed up before you tempo ride in the wild, and not so much on rollers. When I mean warm, it's more than body temperature, it's acclimation to the effort. I know I'm usually 30 minutes in before I try any real sprint pace, I'd be dead meat if I tried to go up to 85%+ speed in the first 10 minutes.

TMonk

riding in any zone above z1 should make you pretty tired if you do it for a long enough duration.

Hermes

Fluctuating headwind.

Heathpack 

Well that was interesting. Since I originally started this thread one week ago, I did my big 135 mile ride (went well), then a recovery ride, then a TSB -60, then got sick, took two days off the bike, then bounced back incredibly well to the point where I felt 85% normal yesterday, tested the waters with an easy 30 min in endurance zone on trainer, then coach says yesterday "great, let's try 45 min tempo on the trainer," with the implication that he considered that a not-too-taxing ride.

So that's what I did today and guess what? It was way easier and more fun than last week. I wound up with the same exact ave & NP for the tempo period. Differences as I see them:
1. Rest. This week TSB -6 vs last week TSB -33. BTW I think these TSB numbers are falsely negative, I got the first power meter in late Aug so that's when my power data starts. But I'd been riding a lot prior to that, none of which is reflected in my CTL.
2. Cadence. I'm supposed to do these tempo periods at a cadence of 80+. Last week ave cadence for the tempo period was 83 vs today 102. I find it easier to ride at high cadence than lower, not sure why I didn't try that last week
3. Hunger. Not literal hunger, but hunger to ride. In the preceeding 4 days, I'd had nothing but a recovery ride, two days off the bike & those 30 easy minutes yesterday. Today I just really wanted to ride my bike.
4. Extending tempo range. My coach has actually given me this very narrow tempo zone, 80-85% of FTP, which is only 10 watts from low to high end of the range. I asked him why & he says that he does not think the lower end of what most people consider tempo actually is tempo. Considering the comments that posters here made about decreasing power targets my 10%, I extended my tempo range in my head from 70-85%. So I didn't feel like I wasnt making my target if I dropped a little low. Interestingly, it didn't matter in the end in my ave & N power, because I wound up with the same exact number as last week. But psychologically it was beneficial.

If its not cheating too much, I'll just do these tempo periods at a higher cadence. And not sweat the little variances in output. And just do it when I don't feel like it, enjoy it when I do.