globecanvas

That's a-ok in both of the two weeknight races I do regularly, as long as those racers don't contest the finish. Both races are USAC sanctioned and one (Rockleigh) is highly competitive and nobody really thinks of it as a training race. Riders who sit out a lap get scored a lap down. The lenience is mostly for the benefit of the 4/5 field but I've seen dropped guys jump back in to the 1/2/3 field too.

revchuck 

Not sure that was cheating per se. If it was a training race, and they had training goals that involved setting up for a sprint or something similar, once they got dropped it would make sense for them to wait until the group came back around.

MDcatV

this is permitted at GB, although if a dropped rider gets back in they're not supposed to contest sprints/primes/etc., and I dont think they're supposed to jump into the main field, which may or may not have been the group you were with.

well done either way!

jdms mvp

yea maybe i have no idea about the rules of training races.... but it seemed REALLY strange for these 3 riders to re-join the group i was in, of only 6 people, who we were all OTF at the time. If this is kosher, then forget what i said about cheating

Doge

Summary of how my son’s year ended.
Tahoe (US Nationals) didn’t work so well. There were eating and sleeping issues and particularly misunderstanding of HR at altitude. Focus was lost a few days before the race. Finish in 8[SUP]th[/SUP] spot and DQ for weight – they weighed the top 10 bikes.
Off to Belgium UCI 2.1. First race Sint-Martinusprijs Kontisch outside of Antwerp – 30 teams. First stage was team TT where they finished 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] to last and missed a turn. 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] stage broke both wheels riding over curb and finished chased on. 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] stage broke another wheel, got spare bike, chased back to group. Finished GC 17 / 150 starters.
Now France. July 10. 28th Ain'Ternational-Rhône Alpes-Valromey Tour. This is known as the hardest junior race. It was particularly hot. 1[SUP]st[/SUP] stage, missed a round-about-turn, lost front group, caught back on. Went back to car for water. Other teams had “pirate cars” that would show up and feed. Missed the attack, almost caught on finished 70[SUP]th[/SUP] or something. Stage 2 whole team abandoned, got some heat stroke but finished 14. Was approached by other teams and told to chill and stop chasing the yellow jersey as it was not his job. Stage 3 team stationed for feeding at all the passes. It worked well. Final stage finished 11. GC of 23.
I flew out for the week to see Internationale Niedersachsen-Rundfahrt der Junioren (2.1) (Germany). Stage 1 was a pack sprint too short for Worlds qualification. Sage 2 was the ITT and it poured, got a flat in start gate and Referee said Garmin could not be taped on, so road without Garmin. OK top 30% time, but not so hot. Next day did two laps and the LUX boys were in the front. Race was canceled due to weather. 3[SUP]rd[/SUP] (or 4[SUP]th[/SUP] with TT) Bo was in front and flatted. Daniel did attack, 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] of 4 laps and chaining asploded/delaminated. Got replacement bike from car near back of caravan and chased about 15miles to get back on. Sprint pack finish – he was toast and finished in pack.
Nothing too surprising except the amount of unfortunate events. It is clear that knowing where you are going and preparing is just part of racing. Also clear is you have to know what rules are like in every region/venue/judge. Local teams know what rules to break. These make huge differences.

globecanvas

I agree that's not so cool. They should have grabbed the main pack. Or at least dropped back to the pack immediately. Is this a sanctioned race or an informal thing?

globecanvas

Holy cow. Equipment DQ, broken wheels, chainring explosion, heat stroke, missed turns, flat in the starting gate, and a talking-to by the other teams. Sounds brutal! I hope it wasn't demoralizing.

Doge

Sure it is. For me and for him, but much was self (his self) caused. I really don't know how you compete at a top level of any sport without periodic problems. Right now - he's having fun rowing - and riding to rowing. We'll heal.

jdms mvp

USAC 'training' series.

i honestly was probably raging because, there were 2 guys in front of my group. I basically towed this junior a full lap at full gas, and see someone(s) we both dropped SUDDENLY in contact with the leading 2.....continuing to ride after standing on the side of the road.

mattm

That's rough.

But, he's racing at the highest junior level, so adversity is to be expected I suppose.. if he ever settles down to local/domestic racing, I bet thing would be a piece of cake.

Doge

Fitness and power were such a small part. Our (USA) top rider (IMO) is not even in this video. It was put together in early spring. Cute anyway.

Daniel gets face in back @ :38, teammate Bo on right, :53 after Ben King with white sleeves, 1:36 on right next to teammate Bo, @1:42 (face hidden, just bike),1:43 on right doing up zipper, 1:44 Bike and legs only 1:45-1:46 face.
https://www.facebook.com/usacycling/videos/vb.81868581333/10153087075686334/?type=2&theater

tetonrider

dude needs to fire his mechanic! oh, uh....

Doge

There have been many firings. FWIW - the mistakes were not mine.
If you are doing team cycling - you go with the team. Issue was I bought this stuff before I was thinking team. Next year, team equipment.

Teammate Strava posted this week 17 year old kid, 386W 20+ min 145lbs. https://www.strava.com/segments/4434559?filter=overall
Daniel can rip 1,400+ short burst at will. Things are very different. Stuff breaks.

tetonrider

not worth paying attention to power #s people, esp kids, quote. for example, i rode the SDSR TT and ran into a buddy of mine, a junior who has trained at the USA cx camp, raced for a basque team, etc. told me at the top he rode 380w (lighter than me). was funny when i saw i rode 1' faster than him on a 17' TT.

lots of folks have no idea what they are doing when it comes to power, calibration, offset, AP/NP, non-zero averages, etc.... it gets silly.

Doge

Brandon will likely win worlds. He can lay down easy 430W plus. He is worth paying attention to.

tetonrider

I've ridden with him, but i absolutely stand by my statement. rode with some good juniors recently and out of curiosity did a ZO of one's bike after the ride--ZO was way, way off.

on average, other peoples' #s aren't worth paying attention to, and quoting #s several steps removed is silly (to me). but ymmv.

in fact, there were a whole bunch of people who had much better w/kg than i do, and yet had a worse time...in a little-skill-involved hill climb. it's kind of entertaining, and also why i don't talk about power #s .

Wylde06

MVW #17 – Owens Crit, B race

Wide non-technical course. .6 miles with “4” turns (1 90 degree turn and 2 wide sweeping ~90 degree turns and one sweeping curve), 35 laps (ended up being 33, the A group lapped us twice and we always finish on the same lap)

I had 2 possible plans for this race..either attack every chance I got or go really early and hope for the best.

15 in the race. We always start with a neutral lap and this race was no different. Once we get done with the neutral, racing started. I made sure to get in the front half to be able to watch and respond to anyone going off the front if I needed to. 3rd lap they ring the bell for a prime (sprint points) and one other guy starts to try and ride away from us..except I was following. As we come to the second turn I blow by him and drill it. Not really an attack, but it was enough to get separation. I figured if im going to go hard now I may as well try for it
Hit turn 3 and the wind is a cross wind. Still hitting it very hard. I looked at my garmin and I was doing ~29. Turn 4, right into the wind, get the prime with a ton of space between me and everyone else. I put my head down and just got into a (hard) rhythm, with the plan on holding this as long as possible and see what happens. …looks like attack attack attack was out of the picture.

I ended up out front on my own for something like 5 laps. Felt a lot longer.

3 guys end up bridging up to me, and we almost immediately start a rotation since we still had a pretty big gap. 2 or 3 laps later we drop one of the guys, then another 3 or 4 laps we drop another guy..then it was me and the owner of the LBS. After a couple laps with just the two us, I take my pull, and as I’m dropping back to his wheel I glance back and see a couple guys trying to bridge up. I ask John (owner of the LBS and my breakmate) if he can any harder..he says he can and we drill it again. Whatever ground the guys behind us picked up was lost because we gained a few more seconds.

With maybe 15 laps to go we decide to share the work equally, because at this point it was very possible that we would stay away. ½ to ¾ lap pulls. We did this the rest of the race. 5 to go, I glance back again and see a couple guys still trying to catch us..wasnt happening.

3 to go I notice one guy jumped the small group chasing and was trying to bridge up. I said something to John and he told me as long as we keep doing what we were doing I could have the win since he wasn’t going to have anything left at the end. Coming into the last lap he tells me to go so I jump hard and take the last lap solo. Crossing the line by myself.


So satisfying.

https://www.strava.com/activities/372243630/overview

mattm

nice!! on a roll.

revchuck 

Way to go, Wylde06!

Doge

OK - so power meters are off. My son won't race with one and does not use one half the time he trains. There is plenty of evidence Brandon is the fastest kid in the world right now in a TT. He has bested everyone every Nations Cup race this year as well as USA Nats - not that that counts. So whatever power that requires - he has more (W/KG CDD etc. stuff).
As to my kid he does not use a PM in racing. He has been given a couple different PM from different people and turns similar numbers. Power and winning are different, but suggesting a 17-18 year old male puts out more short term power than anyone else should not be a stretch. His 1,000# leg presses in less than full range are real and I tried to time the reps and displacement for power - very hard to calculate but the around 1600W comes up. then we have the ERG... Junior short distance W/Kg is pretty much as good as it gets. I expect it to only go down from here.

tetonrider

well, that's kind of the point. power doesn't matter in a TT -- time does. people throw out power #s , esp of others, because it is fun.

obv he is fast--i've seen it first-hand. just saying that i have 100s of cases of people talking about power #s without results, so odds are in favor that even if his #s are accurate, most #s quoted in those scenarios are off, for a variety of reasons.

[/quote]
As to my kid he does not use a PM in racing. He has been given a couple different PM from different people and turns similar numbers. Power and winning are different, but suggesting a 17-18 year old male puts out more short term power than anyone else should not be a stretch. His 1,000# leg presses in less than full range are real and I tried to time the reps and displacement for power - very hard to calculate but the around 1600W comes up. then we have the ERG... Junior short distance W/Kg is pretty much as good as it gets. I expect it to only go down from here.[/QUOTE]
you were talking about someone else's strava data from a 20' tt. how did this go to your son's partial-pedal stroke/single quarq data point stuff?

no need to respond. the other stuff you threw in above is not convincing--but it doesn't have to be. (seriously)

Doge

Forum, so response expected...I expect.
They use the same PM. I think values are pretty close. For 20' and <2 sec. The juniors you know may not know how to calibrate a PM.
For both kids, their results say more than PM, but I think the numbers are good.

Ygduf

he might win worlds and he's clearly a beast, but that linked strava bit of 386w/145lbs for 9 minutes is not right unless there was a serious headwind.

Ygduf

Strava Segment | Jefferson Ave.

367w at 175lbs

Doge

That ride was with his girlfriend and her mom. I reported on the power. I can ask what he was doing, but it was the power number I thought was of interest.