fiataccompli

I've read and heard conflicting info on this, so at risk of asking an embarrassingly dumb question, I figured I'd ask here: Do results from Masters races (and these would be races with an Age + Cat4/Cat5 grouping...I realize some promoters may mix up races differently) count towards upgrade points from Cat4 to Cat3?

Reading the rule book & guidelines, I understood the calculation to be based on result/#of riders/distance with the lower Category racers subtracted out from the total # of riders (thankfully, not an issue on placing in my experience - ha!). That said, others who may be a bit better versed at the application of the USAC rules have told me that you don't get points for upgrades in Masters races (though numbers, results, and discretionary judgement based on what you have done in them could come into play in some not completely tangible sense if a borderline decision is to be made?). I guess I was expecting something quite straight & objective & even thought that tracking points & such things would be something that would be automated via our USAC licenses, but I gather I'm being a bit unrealistic there.

furiousferret

You get points, but if you are a 4 in a 4/5 race, all the 5's are negated. So if you get 1st and the field is 50, but with 20 Cat 5's, its only a field of 30. If 5's sweep the top 6, then no 4's get points (I could be wrong on that last point).

Mixing in 4's with 5's is a flawed system, and it would be better to see the 'newbie' Masters races as 3/4. 4's have a better shot to move up since all racers count, and 3's can race the normal masters races as well. The 5's fields would be smaller, which is better from that perspective, but it all falls apart because its less revenue for the promoter.

Unless I have it all wrong, but after reading the rules, I believe that's how it works.

Ygduf

yes. master's-race points are only ever mentioned as treated differently in upgrading from 2->1. All else they should count.

valygrl

Yes, some of my 4->3 upgrade points were from masters races.

Fingolfin

A bit of a tangent for mixed fields (4/5), but if the race results do not list each riders category how is the field size generally calculated for a cat 4 racer? Do upgrade coordinators accept the size of the whole field?

globecanvas

For upgrade points from any mixed-category race, you will need some way to verify the number of racers of equal or better category than you. road-results.com is useful.

Doge

My understanding is in 2->1 it does not matter if you are the first Cat 2 and 12 Cat 1s are in front (someone tell me I'm wrong PLEASE).
But for Cat 4->3 and Cat 3->2 you can use your position relative to others your category or higher in any group you are allowed to compete in juniors, masters and women can pick up points in men's races. I included those when upgrading my son and while they were not needed, I didn't get corrected - as I normally do when I try something outside the rules.

fiataccompli

thanks, everyone. Thankfully, the races I have been in (TN, AL, SC) all have done a good job of tracking the categories of racers when fields are combined. So, in the last day or so I've gone from thinking I was on the verge of being forced to Cat up to thinking I had a lot of work to do, to (if I'm reading it correctly) back to the verge. Fun fun.

Ultimately what is called Elite Masters (which is Cat 1/2/3, 35+) is probably where I would like to land for racing. I'm sure I'll get my butt handed to me regularly, but it sounds like a fun challenge in the process and I won't miss the dangerous kids in the Cat4 races. I never did Masters 4/5 (usually 40+ or something) as a Cat5 because I felt like even though I probably had a vast amount of group riding & riding (in general) experience vs. a lot of 5s, I also felt like i needed to learn how things work. I bounced back & forth between Cat4 & Masters 4/5 last year based on trite reasons like start times, teammates also racing & payouts (interestingly, in one series Cat4 was prizes & M4/5 was payouts...well, I thought that was interesting). My first 2 races as a Cat4 were combined Cat3/Cat4 fields; I liked that, but I suppose the 3s didn't care for it as much.

caloso

I don't know about Tennessee, but in NorCal the M35 races are a lot harder than the E3 races.

tetonrider

i believe you are mistaken; everything i have ever read is that what matters is one's position across the finish line. as others noted, one only gets credit for beating others who are equal/higher category, but if you are the top cat 2 in a p12 race but finish 15th overall you get nothing.

i haven't specifically done any research for juniors or women, but i am fairly confident in this answer for masters and/or racers in mixed fields (2/3, 3/4, p12).

some promoters do "race together, scored separately"; if they split out the results when reported to USAC, USAC would never know the difference so i guess they could be counted.

fiataccompli

From what I hear, it may depend on who shows up. Population is likely a significant factor. That said, I would expect the M35 to be tougher and trickier, considering a number of lifetime racer Cat1s in the group....but, hey, that sounds like fun that's worthwhile driving across the state to do on a Saturday vs. what could be an easier race to do well in, if that makes any sense.

Doge

Upgrades 4>3 (this thread) are handled at the local level and it does not surprise me to hear different things. 2>1 is always Colorado Springs.

mattm

Well you're in luck, I'm here to tell you you're wrong! =]

Luckily there is no mystery, this is all spelled out by the USAC: Road Category Upgrade Guidelines - USA Cycling

globecanvas

I believe this is not correct. In any mixed-category field, you use your position relative to the entire field, but the field size is calculated using only racers of your category or better. If you are a 3 and you win a race with 10 3s and 10 4s, you get points as if you won against a total field of 10. Unless the categories are scored separately, as TR said.

Doge

From USA Cycling link provided:
When categories are combined, such as in a 3-4 race, the finish place is always the raw finish across the finish line, not taking into account the category of the rider. In other words, the category 3 riders are not subtracted out so that the category 4 rider appears to have a higher finishing place. The only time a category is subtracted out for this purpose is if the prize lists were awarded separately for a combined field.

So in the case of my kid here - he gets NO upgrade points:

hack

^that's correct

globecanvas

Correct. Sucks, as he's the first cat 2, but correct.

It's much easier to get points against weaker combined fields than it is against stronger combined fields. One of several not great things about the upgrade system.

... did everyone after Williams get relegated or something?

Doge

No - I just cut the clip off. I think they was lapped. That race was very windy and there were lots of gaps. I have video - but wrong thread and old race.

I don't think other than the Adrian Costa types upgrading beyond Cat 2 is needed for juniors, or wanted other than the bragging rights as they like racing with their friends.

hack

Looking at the times, did the first through fifth guys lap the main field while sixth through seventeenth were in a chase group?

Doge

Hard to tell. I recall front and chase 1 lapped "the pack" but there were several groups. Very windy.
https://vimeo.com/95055117

fiataccompli

I've read the rule book and the USAC www, and it's silent on Masters generated points in the lower (ie, 4 to 3) categories...so was someone saying that this silence on the part of USAC leaves discretion to the state/local officials?

Jancouver

Around here, you dont need any points. You just ask for the upgrade and in most cases it is approved. I have been in a 1-3 races where some of the 3s participating didint even completed the 10 mandatory races and did not have any major results in the 4s. Believe it or not I'm not making this up.

Disclosure: I'm not referring to California where the rules are pretty strict.

UmneyDurak

Well what do you referring to then, since your location is listed as San Diego.

fiataccompli

Maybe I'm thinking too much? Haha...rarely been accused of that..

Jancouver

Yes, my location is listed as San Diego but this is an old account and I'm no longer there so lets leave it that way.

I hope that those few individuals from this forum that know me will not disclose my new location as I already had enough issues with USAC and as you can imagine those individuals wont take any criticism and can do harm to those that are not in line with their agenda.