Crash avoidance instead of crash fear.
02-23-15, 08:26 AM
#1
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Crash avoidance instead of crash fear.
The other crash thread became stale and off topic, so I thought I'd kickstart a different conversation.
Everyone talks about crashing, but few ever talk about crash avoidance skills. If they do, they say something simplistic like "protect your front wheel". As if that's all it takes.
If you watch how the pack behaves, you can pretty much predict when/where a crash will occur. If you watch how other riders are moving in relation to everyone else, you can see it coming.
Watch a crash in a Cat I-II race. They're riding inches apart. One guy falls, everyone else misses him.
That same event in a Cat 4 race: They're riding a a few feet apart. One guy falls, takes down half the pack.
So obviously it's a skill that you can learn, otherwise the experienced guys would crash like bowling pins, too. Occasionally they do, epically, but 99 % of the time, it's one or two guys who tangle and go down.
Learn to be precise in your steering so that your reaction to something doesn't cause more damage.
Learn where to put yourself in the pack so that you're not at the mercy of squirrels.
Learn to look at the whole of the pack ahead of you and what movements foretell trouble. (i.e. side-to-side, heavy braking, speed changes)
Do some tumbling drills to practice rolling.
Do some bumping drills with other riders so that you don't freak out when it happens in the field.
Learn to counter-steer so that when you have to change your line you can do it incrementally. Inches vs feet. And you can change your line in the middle of a corner.
But to go into a race clutching your St. Peter's medallion isn't the way to do it.
Everyone talks about crashing, but few ever talk about crash avoidance skills. If they do, they say something simplistic like "protect your front wheel". As if that's all it takes.
If you watch how the pack behaves, you can pretty much predict when/where a crash will occur. If you watch how other riders are moving in relation to everyone else, you can see it coming.
Watch a crash in a Cat I-II race. They're riding inches apart. One guy falls, everyone else misses him.
That same event in a Cat 4 race: They're riding a a few feet apart. One guy falls, takes down half the pack.
So obviously it's a skill that you can learn, otherwise the experienced guys would crash like bowling pins, too. Occasionally they do, epically, but 99 % of the time, it's one or two guys who tangle and go down.
Learn to be precise in your steering so that your reaction to something doesn't cause more damage.
Learn where to put yourself in the pack so that you're not at the mercy of squirrels.
Learn to look at the whole of the pack ahead of you and what movements foretell trouble. (i.e. side-to-side, heavy braking, speed changes)
Do some tumbling drills to practice rolling.
Do some bumping drills with other riders so that you don't freak out when it happens in the field.
Learn to counter-steer so that when you have to change your line you can do it incrementally. Inches vs feet. And you can change your line in the middle of a corner.
But to go into a race clutching your St. Peter's medallion isn't the way to do it.
02-23-15, 08:35 AM
#2
out walking the earth
The other crash thread became stale and off topic, so I thought I'd kickstart a different conversation.
Everyone talks about crashing, but few ever talk about crash avoidance skills. If they do, they say something simplistic like "protect your front wheel". As if that's all it takes.
If you watch how the pack behaves, you can pretty much predict when/where a crash will occur. If you watch how other riders are moving in relation to everyone else, you can see it coming.
Watch a crash in a Cat I-II race. They're riding inches apart. One guy falls, everyone else misses him.
That same event in a Cat 4 race: They're riding a a few feet apart. One guy falls, takes down half the pack.
So obviously it's a skill that you can learn, otherwise the experienced guys would crash like bowling pins, too. Occasionally they do, epically, but 99 % of the time, it's one or two guys who tangle and go down.
Learn to be precise in your steering so that your reaction to something doesn't cause more damage.
Learn where to put yourself in the pack so that you're not at the mercy of squirrels.
Learn to look at the whole of the pack ahead of you and what movements foretell trouble. (i.e. side-to-side, heavy braking, speed changes)
Do some tumbling drills to practice rolling.
Do some bumping drills with other riders so that you don't freak out when it happens in the field.
Learn to counter-steer so that when you have to change your line you can do it incrementally. Inches vs feet. And you can change your line in the middle of a corner.
But to go into a race clutching your St. Peter's medallion isn't the way to do it.
Everyone talks about crashing, but few ever talk about crash avoidance skills. If they do, they say something simplistic like "protect your front wheel". As if that's all it takes.
If you watch how the pack behaves, you can pretty much predict when/where a crash will occur. If you watch how other riders are moving in relation to everyone else, you can see it coming.
Watch a crash in a Cat I-II race. They're riding inches apart. One guy falls, everyone else misses him.
That same event in a Cat 4 race: They're riding a a few feet apart. One guy falls, takes down half the pack.
So obviously it's a skill that you can learn, otherwise the experienced guys would crash like bowling pins, too. Occasionally they do, epically, but 99 % of the time, it's one or two guys who tangle and go down.
Learn to be precise in your steering so that your reaction to something doesn't cause more damage.
Learn where to put yourself in the pack so that you're not at the mercy of squirrels.
Learn to look at the whole of the pack ahead of you and what movements foretell trouble. (i.e. side-to-side, heavy braking, speed changes)
Do some tumbling drills to practice rolling.
Do some bumping drills with other riders so that you don't freak out when it happens in the field.
Learn to counter-steer so that when you have to change your line you can do it incrementally. Inches vs feet. And you can change your line in the middle of a corner.
But to go into a race clutching your St. Peter's medallion isn't the way to do it.
no they don't
02-23-15, 09:55 AM
#3
pan y agua
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^^ All great advice.
I'd add, ride with a relaxed upper body, so you can absorb getting bumped, and not over react to problems.
Tension from the fear of crashing causes physical tension which increases the odds of crashing.
I'd add, ride with a relaxed upper body, so you can absorb getting bumped, and not over react to problems.
Tension from the fear of crashing causes physical tension which increases the odds of crashing.
__________________
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
You could fall off a cliff and die.
You could get lost and die.
You could hit a tree and die.
OR YOU COULD STAY HOME AND FALL OFF THE COUCH AND DIE.
02-23-15, 10:19 AM
#4
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I think more about crashing before the race than during it. Outside of the final lap, I'm focused more on safely moving up the pack. A few times I'll avoid the middle altogether since you may have a few guys with bad lines that keep closing it out in each turn or just someone that isn't very smooth. I find this more in yearly crits like Redlands or Roger Millikan than the monthly series like Ontario or CBR.
Ontario I rarely feel the need to 'bug out' and ride on the outside, at Roger Millikan where you had cyclists showing up with pillows stuffed in their jersey (yes this happened) and visible fear in their eyes because they only do one crit a year I felt very uncomfortable (and a few people did take hospital trips that race).
Ontario I rarely feel the need to 'bug out' and ride on the outside, at Roger Millikan where you had cyclists showing up with pillows stuffed in their jersey (yes this happened) and visible fear in their eyes because they only do one crit a year I felt very uncomfortable (and a few people did take hospital trips that race).
02-23-15, 03:18 PM
#8
Senior Member
^ funny, I just showed that clip to my wife a couple days ago, when we were talking about the time I had to sleep in the same bed with another coach from the gym I worked at.
02-23-15, 03:25 PM
#9
Arrogant Roadie Punk
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the legendary bariani incident of 2010. i missed it by 2 minutes because i was chasing after dropping a chain
02-23-15, 05:34 PM
#10
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02-23-15, 05:37 PM
#11
Blast from the Past
Relaxed upper body is a great tip! Understand that as goes your front wheel so go you. Learn who the "**** magnets" are, there are some riders who even if not sketchy themselves always find the crash, avoid them. And never race in Canada.
02-23-15, 05:38 PM
#12
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nevermind, can't resist there are 40,000 pics like this
02-23-15, 05:47 PM
#13
Blast from the Past
To be fair that's not a Cat I-II race.
02-23-15, 06:22 PM
#15
out walking the earth
02-23-15, 06:31 PM
#17
**** that
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Anyway, I'd love to find the p/1/2 races where huge crashes don't happen.
However I will say that if the 4's rode as close and as aggressively as 1/2's did, they would probably crash more often and the crashes would be bigger.
Really it's just a fact of racing.
Even good/great bike handlers will crash eventually.
02-23-15, 06:52 PM
#18
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Thread Starter
You can find those epic crashes very easily on Google. Good job. But the larger percentage of crashes in pro and I-II races involve one or two riders. I said 99%. I speak in general terms. It may be higher than that.
Then you exaggerate by offering up the 40,000 number. Maybe Google found 40,000 images, but I guarantee you they didn't find 40,000 unique crashes. You distorted numbers to make a point. Why? You want to argue that Pro-I-II riders crash as fiercely and as often as Cat 4s? That's just not true.
02-23-15, 06:54 PM
#19
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You cherry picked my comments to make your point when I clearly said "Occasionally they do, EPICALLY, but 99% of the time, it's one or two guys who tangle and go down."
You can find those epic crashes very easily on Google. Good job. But the larger percentage of crashes in pro and I-II races involve one or two riders. I said 99%. I speak in general terms. It may be higher than that.
You can find those epic crashes very easily on Google. Good job. But the larger percentage of crashes in pro and I-II races involve one or two riders. I said 99%. I speak in general terms. It may be higher than that.
You make the argument, so the obligation to support it, somehow, is on you. My google proves nothing, but it's slightly more than a blind statement posing as truth, no?*
*or that the crashes are smaller/involve fewer riders
02-23-15, 06:58 PM
#20
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Thread Starter
No, I never said there were fewer crashes in a P12. I think there, but what I said was that their crashes usually involve one or two riders. Versus a Cat 4 crash that will generally involve many.
Sorry to be contentious. Not normally my style.
Sorry to be contentious. Not normally my style.
02-23-15, 07:02 PM
#21
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Anyway, why do you think this? Where is the data?
If it's somehow supported, why would you think it's anything more than bike handling is somewhat proportional to experience and p12 fields tend to have the most experienced riders?
But seriously, this discussion has come up 15 times and I've asked 15 times for _any_ data that points to like crashes/mile/participant for any category of racing and it's never ever been even hinted at that such a thing exists.
And I'm not trying to be willful or anything other than pragmatic.
02-23-15, 07:11 PM
#22
Ninny
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I think the point here was to start a thread where people would talk about ways that their experience has taught them to read situations to avoid crashes. I don't think anyone could argue that experience has value in avoiding crashes, so that seems reasonable.
I'll make an obvious contribution. If somebody crashes on a turn, aim for where they are, because that's one place you know they won't be by the time you get there,
It's interesting that the thread itself crashed so quickly. It may be even harder to avoid crash situations on the internet than in a bicycle race.
I'll make an obvious contribution. If somebody crashes on a turn, aim for where they are, because that's one place you know they won't be by the time you get there,
It's interesting that the thread itself crashed so quickly. It may be even harder to avoid crash situations on the internet than in a bicycle race.
02-23-15, 07:39 PM
#23
Announcer
Thread Starter
Mine is purely observational from being in the sport for 100 years (I round up) and as an announcer who has called so many races and seen so many crashes. and so many people running to the pit area.
I've been announcing since 1985. If you spend your day on stage all day watching every single race, you collect your own data.
I'd like to see a study, though.
Yep. Yet you often see riders try to hurry around on the outside. Never make it.
I've been announcing since 1985. If you spend your day on stage all day watching every single race, you collect your own data.
I'd like to see a study, though.
Yep. Yet you often see riders try to hurry around on the outside. Never make it.
02-23-15, 08:26 PM
#24
Blast from the Past
Seriously though, watch the best. At about 26s the Canadian rider overlaps a wheel and slides all the way to the cote while everyone behind casually rides past. In regular speed it was impressive. Is it cherry picking an example, yes. Can you find videos of a Track rider going down and taking others? Sure. Is there something to learn from this? I think yes, stay relaxed and don't over react. I bet you put 10 typical weekend racers behind that Girl and 2 of them immediately take themselves down, the rest scattering like an IED when off in the field.
02-23-15, 09:12 PM
#25
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Thread Starter
Tip: When a crash occurs ahead of you (or behind you for that matter), don't look at it. Look for an escape or something soft.
Newer racers tend to look at the crash and grab the brakes.
We had a crash in the 45+ race last year. It happened at the back of the pack, yet 5 guys went down in FRONT of the original crash.
Newer racers tend to look at the crash and grab the brakes.
We had a crash in the 45+ race last year. It happened at the back of the pack, yet 5 guys went down in FRONT of the original crash.