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Was this cheating?

Old 02-25-15, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining
Junior gears are just a uci rule, so it applies to all races. Trust me, junior gears is one of the greatest training tools possible for a kid. I used to hate them, until i swapped to senior gears and realized how much being limited had taught me/improved my form.
Why not apply them to adults too? Adults don't need to train for form?
The answer to me is that training and competing are different. I think spinning is great.
The rules has changed over the years. Juniors used to be able to race on the same equipment as those they competed against. That has changed.
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Old 02-25-15, 03:28 PM
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I'm totally for making adults in the lower cats use restricted gear ratios.

Also you do get racing is training, right? Having to spend an hour spinning at 120 rpms makes you a pretty efficient rider, and discourages many lazy tacts you can use when you have senior gears. I always trained on regular gears because it wasn't too hard to hit high enough speeds where my wattage wouldn't match my target, but in any race, even training race, it was always junior gears.
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Old 02-25-15, 04:14 PM
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Originally Posted by jsutkeepspining
I'm totally for making adults in the lower cats use restricted gear ratios.

Also you do get racing is training, right?
Sure I get that. I would tie it to category - not age.

Some races are more testing than training, but everyone learns something from every race.
Every sport I can think of - all those in the same class are allowed to use the same equipment. Cycling is the sole exception that comes to mind and really a USAC thing. In Europe I don't know the juniors can race with adults and as there are some 150 kids in a race - it may not matter.

I want competition authorities to have rules/laws for safety and ensure fair competition. If the role of the rules is training why stop at gears and not dictate bike fit too? As this only has an effect of kids that don't even vote - its not given much attention. Spinning is a very good idea.
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Old 02-25-15, 04:16 PM
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There was a race where I dropped out after one 11 mile lap (race was 55 miles) - I did it for 3-4 years and every year I got shelled on the hill to the finish (Jiminy Peak RR). I was probably home when the 6th place guy crossed the line. However, for whatever reason, I got selected 6th. The promoters sent me a check and a mug. I sent them back. I couldn't undo the USCF results online but otherwise I think my 6th place got erased. Still, those that read the race standings congratulated me for years on my "really strong" finish at this incredibly hard road race where I've never finished one lap with the field.

I did a Series race (before Bethel so it wasn't my race) where I cramped at the bell and stopped to watch the finish. I was sitting second overall and the guy who was ahead of me won that day. Because I didn't place I left without checking results. I found out the next and final week that I'd "won" the previous week's race. I protested vehemently to the officials and promoter (I didn't know any better so I went to the promoter as well) and all of them shrugged, 15 min protest period is over. I talked to the overall leader, who was now second overall due to my "win" and his "2nd place". He was a friendly rival, we had the utmost respect for each other, and in fact he found the time to drive 5-6 hours down to do a Bethel race a couple years ago. Anyway he said it was no big deal. In the last race I got 2nd, he won, and he won the overall. No prize money or anything, but I think it was an appropriate finish. I won't say I didn't sprint but I simply made sure I was ahead of everyone else.

One big race as a Junior the officials doing pre-race roll out used the wrong lines. Guys were "passing" rollout with 53x12 (gear limit was 53x15 with 700c 21mm tires). One or two of my teammates changed to their "Senior" wheels for the race. I declined because it was wrong. After the race virtually all the picked riders got DQ'ed due to rollout violations.

Cane Creek Speed and Scott Rake bars have always been USCF/USAC legal. Because they haven't been made in a while, because many officials don't know about them, I got into the habit of asking if the officials would allow me to use them. In most situations the officials allow me to do so. In one race (Somerville) the officials were hesitant. The person I asked knew about the bars, knew the legal way to use them, and also knew the illegal way most riders use them. They pointed out that if I used them the illegal way then I'd be DQ'ed. I understood, and, short of mounting a camera to capture my hand placement on the bars, I knew that simply by running the bars I'd risk being DQ'ed. Plus Somerville + me = no breaks. I told them that to avoid confusion I'd remove the bars.

Ultimately when someone gets a license they agree to follow the rules. They could be the most stupid, inane rules ever, but if the rulebook says "YOu must wear pink socks to such and such spec pink, ending at least 30 cm above the heel" then you better believe that I'm going to do two things. First I'm going to find some pink socks that reach at least 30 cm above my heel. Second I'm going to raise hell with USAC about the rules and how to go about amending them.

If someone doesn't want to play by the rules, that's fine, just don't race USAC or UCI. Dope, use 5:1 aero profiles, don't wear a helmet, etc. It's all good when not in a USAC/UCI race.

This question reminds me of the golfers that DQ themselves for doing something ridiculously unharmful but technically illegal. They got the whatever (putt, hole, I don't know golf) but they broke a rule in doing so (like wearing green without wearing pink or something that has nothing to do with the golf stick or ball), and they excused themselves from the competition. The golfer knew the rules, knew they broke them, and excused themselves from competition.

The reality is that a USAC official will typically NOT change the results after the fact. However, if the rider approaches an official and reports a rule violation, at least it clears the rider of responsibility. Overgeared, number not quite right, etc, if you report it to the official and the official says something like, "Thanks, this time I'm letting it slide but take care next time" then it's all good.
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Old 02-25-15, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I quit so I can make fun of RTC and tell fudgy to **** off.
And we've never been happier!
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Old 02-25-15, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
And we've never been happier!
but is it cheating?
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Old 02-25-15, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
but is it cheating?
It depends.



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Old 02-25-15, 05:02 PM
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I would like an example of where an act is considered cheating when the referee knowing all the facts approves it OR there was not foreknowledge of the rule breaking.
Several have disagreed with my statement. Some have said/or suggested I am advocating rule breaking and suggesting poor character/sportsmanship.

But there are no examples given of when a person is cheating and the referee knowing the facts approved of it OR there was no foreknowledge of rule breaking.

The examples @carpediemracing cited all fit what I said.
-After the fact placing. You knowingly did nothing. You didn't cheat. This is akin to gears in that you could have stayed around. The officials have the 15 min rule. BTW - I have seen them overturn their decisions' days later and award a different state champion based on video I had of the finish and Facebook revolt.
-Wrong lines on roll-out. You had foreknowledge it was wrong you didn't do it. The referee did NOT have the facts. You did not break the rules.
-Cane creak - referee was talked to and agreed.

Last edited by Doge; 02-25-15 at 05:13 PM.
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Old 02-25-15, 05:02 PM
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I prefer this one

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Old 02-25-15, 05:14 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I prefer this one
Either way I was just happy to catch such an easy lob.
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Old 02-25-15, 05:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
I would like an example of where an act is considered cheating when the referee knowing all the facts approves it OR there was not foreknowledge of the rule breaking.
Several have disagreed with my statement. Some have said/or suggested I am advocating rule breaking and suggesting poor character/sportsmanship.

But there are no examples given of when a person is cheating and the referee knowing the facts approved of it OR there was no foreknowledge of rule breaking.

The examples @carpediemracing cited all fit what I said.
-After the fact placing. You knowingly did nothing. You didn't cheat. This is akin to gears in that you could have stayed around. The officials have the 15 min rule. BTW - I have seen them overturn their decisions' days later and award a different state champion based on video I had of the finish and Facebook revolt.
-Wrong lines on roll-out. You had foreknowledge it was wrong you didn't do it. The referee did NOT have the facts. You did not break the rules.
-Cane creak - referee was talked to and agreed.

I really think you're hung up on the wrong thing.

You want an example? The UCI knew Armstrong cheated and allowed a backdated TUE.
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Old 02-25-15, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by gsteinb
I really think you're hung up on the wrong thing.

You want an example? The UCI knew Armstrong cheated and allowed a backdated TUE.
You were not disagreeing with my statement - others did. Here it was again: "In racing (on topic) anything done in front of and allowed by the officials - is not cheating (unless of course, they were paid off)." Those were really not race specific referees but UCI. My parenthetical bit was about exactly that. Corrupt officials - well another thing. I don't believe the officials in USAC cycling are anything but honest. Maybe wrong sometimes, but honest.

To the OP - you can't cheat when those (honest ones) in authority have the facts and determine you are not.
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Old 02-25-15, 05:34 PM
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I don't know what's going on in this thread.

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Old 02-25-15, 06:03 PM
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Entertaining you. And I was getting my car tires changed and wheels aligned.
I was a bit surprised this thread was allowed in the -33. But I waited for a sprout and jumped on board.
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Old 02-25-15, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
Entertaining you. And I was getting my car tires changed and wheels aligned.
I was a bit surprised this thread was allowed in the -33. But I waited for a sprout and jumped on board.
I just don't even see an endgame. You're talking about rules that, broken on purpose or even accidentally don't really impact the competitive fairness of a bike race. If someone breaks those inadvertently, I personally don't care and you don't seem overly broken up about it. But trying to convince the pitchfork and torch set that there exist any shades between black and white is a tough sell; they just dig in.

Try telling this crowd that if you had been in Lance's shoes you probably would have doped too. I've been there before, not because I think doping is swell, but because I understand that there is context in life and that those guys had pressures I can't understand or imagine from the armchair. Cycling didn't just end up with a huge immoral majority, the circumstances just lead to a bunch of immoral actions.

That example maybe seems more complicated than jr roll-outs, but the reality is there are many more instances of decent people making bad decisions and we still can't get over ourselves and admit that "yeah, I probably would have been victim to those circumstances too." It's even easier to say that your kid accidentally riding a 53/12 should be DQ'd. I don't even have to pretend to try and have empathy for that mistake; I could never be in that situation.

good luck, though.
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Old 02-25-15, 06:51 PM
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Old 02-25-15, 07:03 PM
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all i know is i'm pointing out Doge's kid to the officials this weekend
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Old 02-25-15, 07:05 PM
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Not looking for an end game. I'm offering a perspective that Eurocentric type sports (cycling, soccer, rugby, cricket) are more about the spirit of the rules/laws and that it is up to the referee to decide. I like that and it frees players/rider to just do the sport recreation and allows the judges/referees to judge. Where there is not referee then sportsmanship and personal honor come into play, but that was not what any of the examples or the OP was about. The referee was involved and knew the facts.

Maybe that perspective is wrong. But because I hold it does not mean I advocate cheating, being covert, or spend time teaching my kid the 11th commandment. Its just I think rule enforcement is for those that are in the position to enforce it and winning is the best goal for the participants.
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Old 02-25-15, 07:06 PM
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Originally Posted by hack
all i know is i'm pointing out Doge's kid to the officials this weekend
For what? A crinkled number and no pins? If he keeps his tires inflated - he's fine.
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Old 02-25-15, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
I just don't even see an endgame. You're talking about rules that, broken on purpose or even accidentally don't really impact the competitive fairness of a bike race. If someone breaks those inadvertently, I personally don't care and you don't seem overly broken up about it. But trying to convince the pitchfork and torch set that there exist any shades between black and white is a tough sell; they just dig in.

Try telling this crowd that if you had been in Lance's shoes you probably would have doped too. I've been there before, not because I think doping is swell, but because I understand that there is context in life and that those guys had pressures I can't understand or imagine from the armchair. Cycling didn't just end up with a huge immoral majority, the circumstances just lead to a bunch of immoral actions.

That example maybe seems more complicated than jr roll-outs, but the reality is there are many more instances of decent people making bad decisions and we still can't get over ourselves and admit that "yeah, I probably would have been victim to those circumstances too." It's even easier to say that your kid accidentally riding a 53/12 should be DQ'd. I don't even have to pretend to try and have empathy for that mistake; I could never be in that situation.

good luck, though.
did you just accuse doge of being a doper?
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Old 02-25-15, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
For what? A crinkled number and no pins? If he keeps his tires inflated - he's fine.
Crinkled number is the tip of the iceberg. And pins!!! Now I'm wondering about that Knight's Ferry syringe from a few weeks back. But really, just a dry attempt to add some levity to this stress fest.
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Old 02-25-15, 07:55 PM
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See that below? That is a number pin. That is what pins do. We'd all be better without them. Good example. Murrietta 2014. Daniel was the Cat 3 Omnium leader at this point. SRAM was neutral support and would not take other wheels (actually they did after some begging seeing they did not have a 14T 11speed). If this had been a rear flat (it was a front) would he have been cheating if they gave him an illegal rear and he maintained his lead? My answer - same as before - its up to the referee.
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Old 02-25-15, 08:38 PM
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It would be nice if SCNCA (or USAC as a whole) would assign permanent numbers we could just sew on our numbers once for the season and be done with it. If the system was designed right it could be 3 digits for everyone...4 tops.
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Old 02-25-15, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Doge
@grolby, @Yep can you give an example of cheating where a rule was broken and the officials allowed it having all the facts, or cheating where it was discovered only later that a rule was broken.

@gsteinb - just in the car with Daniel 10 min ago I asked him if he thought learning about a gear issue 2 weeks later was cheating. He said "no".
I then asked if there was a record set or some significant result should it stand. He said "no, why? Is this some bike forum thing again?"
You said he raced on non-junior gears. That's breaking the rules, whether you're caught. It's cheating. Beyond that it's obviously your call.
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Old 02-25-15, 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted by hack
it must be ... i've got more pins at home now than i could ever need. i need to start taking them with me and reusing them at races.
I had several hundred that my wife finally threw out. I mentioned it at the early birds and the guy said I should have brought them back for reuse haha!
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