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  1. #1
    Senior Member CanadianBiker32's Avatar
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    Was this cheating?

    Just a question in the past Tour De France with Lance Armstrong.

    It is the question of the one where Lance avoids crashing with another rider by cutting across a field to the road on other side? how come this was let go, did he get a time penalty for this? since he cut the course?

    Here is the link to this



    So tell me more about this. since he did take a lead over other riders on this stage?

  2. #2
    aka Phil Jungels Wanderer's Avatar
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    As I remember it, he was forced off the road to avoid the crash. Therefore no penalty was assessed.

    "Retirement is the best job I ever had!" Me, 2009


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  3. #3
    Theodore Roosevelt's idol TheKillerPenguin's Avatar
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    oh god
    Is trick from science!

  4. #4
    Ninny globecanvas's Avatar
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    No penalty because he didn't benefit from the shortcut (he ended up further back than he would have been otherwise).

    Beloki on the other hand received a significant penalty. Part of his leg is still embedded in the tarmac, which is why that turn has henceforth been called the "Beloki femur."

  5. #5
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    Come on, of all things to judge lance on cheat is cutting out 100 yards for crash avoidance 12 years later?

  6. #6
    Senior Member macca33's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Christobevii3 View Post
    Come on, of all things to judge lance on cheat is cutting out 100 yards for crash avoidance 12 years later?


    Perhaps it was a legitimate question, given the fact that the rules do state one cannot shorten the course. Benefit of the doubt to the OP may apply here - the same benefit that Lance was given during this particular stage, for a 'shortening' that was outside his control and deemed to be fair play on his part....

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  7. #7
    Senior Member Dave Cutter's Avatar
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    I believe... according to official records... Lance wasn't in that race.

  8. #8
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheKillerPenguin View Post
    oh god
    indeed.

    the answer is both no and 41/217.
    cat 1.

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  9. #9
    \_(ツ)_/ Ygduf's Avatar
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    I believe there were multiple cycling-cap DQs in that race. There's no rule that says you can't ride the fast way down the switchbacks.

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  10. #10
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    In racing (on topic) anything done in front of and allowed by the officials - is not cheating (unless of course, they were paid off).

  11. #11
    Announcer EventServices's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by globecanvas View Post
    No penalty because he didn't benefit from the shortcut (he ended up further back than he would have been otherwise).
    This sums it up.

    I'm sure the commissaires spent time discussing it after the race. They may even have fined him 50 Euros.

    I've sat in on those juries that take place immediately after the finish where they dissect every little thing that happened in the stage. Sometimes it becomes a competition among officials to show how much they know.

    And this little run-off would give them tons of fodder. They'd call up every single rule that applies and then debate it for several minutes before declaring it a non-violation.

  12. #12
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    Seem lately that these rules are frequently cited at the starting line, just before the race almost to get the rider nervous, then nothing done. It develops a big callous as to really listening to rules that will be enforced.
    Racers learn what they are allowed to do and do that - not what the rules

    Maybe in 12 years they will nullify his race wins when they see this on video, with an official allowing it - it can't be cheating.

    Examples:
    -Right before the TT start in VOS - referee to my son. "Is there any reason your bars are not round?, Rules state no clip on or aero bars." (they do state that). Same type of bars he used last year. He was allowed to use them last year, this year - so why ask.
    -Big call out on the start line about crinkled number. So we always (400+ races) take the number and put it in a ball and then flatten it out. The primary SoCal promoter decided to call him out on the start line of the State Crit and everyone had to wait about 5 min to start. Then...nothing happened and we all started. And we/he still do the same thing with the numbers.
    -"No tolerance on the centerline rule" - I see not being reasonable and allowing crosses on corners and when bumped.

  13. #13
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianBiker32 View Post

    So tell me more about this. since he did take a lead over other riders on this stage?
    since this is one of the most famous incidents in modern tour history the 'tell me about this' just strikes me as laziness.

    and the first one who chimed in with 217 nailed it.

  14. #14
    Senior Member grolby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doge View Post
    -Big call out on the start line about crinkled number. So we always (400+ races) take the number and put it in a ball and then flatten it out. The primary SoCal promoter decided to call him out on the start line of the State Crit and everyone had to wait about 5 min to start. Then...nothing happened and we all started. And we/he still do the same thing with the number
    Well stop that, then. Crumpling a number is the wrong way to make it lie flat. Stop.
    The Workingman's Honest Bicycle Program - Heady talk about bikes, bike racing, bike racers and bike riding. standarddouble.com/whbp

  15. #15
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    it makes it hard for the camera to pick up the numbers. learn to pin properly. if you can spend a whole day worrying about what your kid's VO2 max number means surely you can invest enough time to pin him properly.

  16. #16
    Senior Member Wylde06's Avatar
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    There is an official at some of the races that I do that says he will pull people from the race if they crumple their numbers.

  17. #17
    **** that mattm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ygduf View Post
    I believe there were multiple cycling-cap DQs in that race. There's no rule that says you can't ride the fast way down the switchbacks.
    Horner was in violation at Snelling, I should've reported him.
    cat 1.

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  18. #18
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it makes it hard for the camera to pick up the numbers. learn to pin properly. if you can spend a whole day worrying about what your kid's VO2 max number means surely you can invest enough time to pin him properly.
    Pinning numbers properly is an advanced racing technique.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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  19. #19
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by grolby View Post
    Well stop that, then. Crumpling a number is the wrong way to make it lie flat. Stop.
    It doesn't matter. Things are stopped when they are BOTH rules and enforced.
    It is cheating when it is against the rules, known about by the participant and ( hidden from an official OR penalized by the official).

    Here are two...which if any are cheating?
    1 Son does a TT. I think he has junior gears, he thinks he has junior gears. Officials don't do roll out. Two weeks later I am changing cassette and find its one that was used for training and was not legal.
    2 Son does Brentwood crit. He wins. He does rollout. He does podium. He says to me it looked like he failed but the referee didn't say/do anything. I look at home - he does not have junior gears.

  20. #20
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    it makes it hard for the camera to pick up the numbers. learn to pin properly. if you can spend a whole day worrying about what your kid's VO2 max number means surely you can invest enough time to pin him properly.
    We don't use pins only 3m 77.

  21. #21
    powered by Racer Ex gsteinb's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doge View Post
    It doesn't matter. Things are stopped when they are BOTH rules and enforced.
    It is cheating when it is against the rules, known about by the participant and ( hidden from an official OR penalized by the official).

    Here are two...which if any are cheating?
    1 Son does a TT. I think he has junior gears, he thinks he has junior gears. Officials don't do roll out. Two weeks later I am changing cassette and find its one that was used for training and was not legal.
    2 Son does Brentwood crit. He wins. He does rollout. He does podium. He says to me it looked like he failed but the referee didn't say/do anything. I look at home - he does not have junior gears.
    shrug. whether it's cheating or not is irrelevant. There's a lesson in here I'd convey to my kid though for sure. And it ain't wink wink nod nod. YMMV.

  22. #22
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
    shrug. whether it's cheating or not is irrelevant. There's a lesson in here I'd convey to my kid though for sure. And it ain't wink wink nod nod. YMMV.
    I am curious what that lesson would be. There was no wink wink nod nod. The system is not setup to do anything about it. 15 min later decisions are final.

    I taught both of my kids not to be covert and to respect the officials ruling. That goes both ways - when they judge for you and when they judge against you.

  23. #23
    Elite Rider Hermes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doge View Post
    We don't use pins only 3m 77.
    USAC

    Rule 1J7. Racing numbers.

    Hip numbers shall be attached securely at least at the four corners and no accessory or hair may obstruct a clear view of the number.

    I use 3M 77 and 4 pins to comply with Rule 1J7. My goal when showing up at the line or technical inspection is to be totally complaint with all the USAC / UCI rules. That way there is no pressure on me at the starting line or during the race to have to debate, discuss or anything else with officials. Sometimes USAC / UCI officials get it wrong but it is up to the racers to be compliant.
    "Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results." Einstein

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  24. #24
    Senior Member jsutkeepspining's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doge View Post
    It doesn't matter. Things are stopped when they are BOTH rules and enforced.
    It is cheating when it is against the rules, known about by the participant and ( hidden from an official OR penalized by the official).

    Here are two...which if any are cheating?
    1 Son does a TT. I think he has junior gears, he thinks he has junior gears. Officials don't do roll out. Two weeks later I am changing cassette and find its one that was used for training and was not legal.
    2 Son does Brentwood crit. He wins. He does rollout. He does podium. He says to me it looked like he failed but the referee didn't say/do anything. I look at home - he does not have junior gears.
    My 2 cents, check your bike before you race. Nothing worse than losing a race due to a simple fix. Luckily he's a 1/2, and may refs will "turn the other way" in p/1/2 races at local events. I don't necessarily agree with it, but it's very common
    cat 1-o-meter: wtf am i doing??????
    Quote Originally Posted by Racer Ex View Post
    You're not dumb. You're just less smart.

  25. #25
    Senior Member Doge's Avatar
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    Ditto - except we don't follow rules that don't apply to the race - for example UCI rules at Chico SR are not applicable.

    My son is compliant with 1J7 - all the rules.
    The numbers are not folded - they are flat on his back and very readable. They are not defaced. All corners are firmly attached.

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