Lack of 1km fliers in world tour racing
#26
ride lots be safe
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I always liked Gilbert's moves in his prime because he could launch on the penultimate hill or the finish hill and just hold everyone off or even pull away.
Voeckler won the Canadian ProTour race, the first year, with a late flyer / early jump.
Voeckler won the Canadian ProTour race, the first year, with a late flyer / early jump.
#27
ride lots be safe
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CDR has a good point about World's, the tactics are more like a typical local race... the guys may be wearing the same jersey but that doesnt' mean they are working together.
And we can't mention the late flyer WC's without Oscarito in '99:
And we can't mention the late flyer WC's without Oscarito in '99:
#28
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Remembered this from last year, after watching Stybar win Strade Bianche the other day. It's literally a 1km flyer, although (a) he had a leadout coming into 1km and (b) it was uphill. Great win though.
Last edited by globecanvas; 03-11-15 at 06:33 PM.
#30
VeloSIRraptor
Greg Henderson is one of the few guys who have the power profile to actually pull something like that off, and if he could win many races like that he'd do it. However, he's a leadout guy because it simply doesn't work, anyone with that reputation gets watched, and it isn't THAT hard to hitch a ride. (comparatively, the watts required are much lower)
His leadout for Greipal's win the other day, I don't have it in front of me, but I recall him saying on twitter that it was <edit>930, for 30 seconds</edit> or something staggering like that?
And you'll notice, everyone was sitting on his wheel, and then accelerating.
THAT's why, even guys with that power-profile, that are world-class among professionals can't pull it off.
His leadout for Greipal's win the other day, I don't have it in front of me, but I recall him saying on twitter that it was <edit>930, for 30 seconds</edit> or something staggering like that?
And you'll notice, everyone was sitting on his wheel, and then accelerating.
THAT's why, even guys with that power-profile, that are world-class among professionals can't pull it off.
Last edited by Hida Yanra; 03-11-15 at 08:18 PM. Reason: looked up the data
#31
fuggitivo solitario
reminds me of that stage in the 2011 Tour of CA (back when he rode for Sky) where he was the leadout and his sprinter (I think Ben Swift) got shoved off Henderson's wheel. Instead he just kept going for it and won on an extremely long sprint. I think the effort was just under 1kW for 30 seconds.
https://cat6.trainingpeaks.com/races/...---1962km.aspx
https://cat6.trainingpeaks.com/races/...---1962km.aspx
Last edited by echappist; 03-11-15 at 08:29 PM.
#32
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to piggyback on the post above, world tour races are moving faster than your local race which means the extra .5mph at the pro level requires an exponentially higher amount of power than the .5mph at the local race. Remember that the guys they're trying to beat are also pros, so you need a bigger delta in ability against the top competition in the world.
The fact of it is nobody is strong enough to just inflict their will on a pro race. It takes huge ability AND some sort of circumstance where they somehow allow it to happen.
The fact of it is nobody is strong enough to just inflict their will on a pro race. It takes huge ability AND some sort of circumstance where they somehow allow it to happen.
#33
VeloSIRraptor
went digging - 'cause Hendo has a reputation for being a generous guy,
SUFFERvision
watch the racing, and the watts, and see how 30" at 900 just gets the fast men primed for a nice kick.
sure, there are exceptions, but the positioning and tactics to pull this off at the WT level are not even feasible unless you have +900/50" power, at the end of a long hard race day. The sprint was about 10" long after Greg pulls off, and they were going faster than the leadout, so figure a few extra seconds on top of the sprint time, plus you'd need a harder launch that Henderson had when he went (+/-1200) so you could be clear...
sure, things happen and never-say-never, but as a legit tactic? Nah.
OP - HOWEVER - you aren't wrong that it seems like something people should try. Well, turns out they do. If you know what you are watching, you'll see guys try this fairly frequently, but it never looks like much because of how hard it is to move up near the head of affairs on a stage like this, then the power to launch, if you watch you'll see guys you don't recognize pop off the sides/front, jump across the road when the sprint trains are going - but it mostly doesn't register as a real thing because the lead out trains usually get them back in a couple seconds.
Even pros are out of fuel in a few seconds given how much is spent just getting to the front. Hitting clean air is a brutal realization that mortals just don't have enough.
Iljo Kiesse did a standing-start 1K in front of the pack a few years ago at the Tour of Turkey with only a few seconds gap and made it, but he's a freak talent at that sort of thing (you should also watch that highlight)
signed - a guy who can/has done this at lower levels, and knows the math all too well.
(Right echappy?)
SUFFERvision
watch the racing, and the watts, and see how 30" at 900 just gets the fast men primed for a nice kick.
sure, there are exceptions, but the positioning and tactics to pull this off at the WT level are not even feasible unless you have +900/50" power, at the end of a long hard race day. The sprint was about 10" long after Greg pulls off, and they were going faster than the leadout, so figure a few extra seconds on top of the sprint time, plus you'd need a harder launch that Henderson had when he went (+/-1200) so you could be clear...
sure, things happen and never-say-never, but as a legit tactic? Nah.
OP - HOWEVER - you aren't wrong that it seems like something people should try. Well, turns out they do. If you know what you are watching, you'll see guys try this fairly frequently, but it never looks like much because of how hard it is to move up near the head of affairs on a stage like this, then the power to launch, if you watch you'll see guys you don't recognize pop off the sides/front, jump across the road when the sprint trains are going - but it mostly doesn't register as a real thing because the lead out trains usually get them back in a couple seconds.
Even pros are out of fuel in a few seconds given how much is spent just getting to the front. Hitting clean air is a brutal realization that mortals just don't have enough.
Iljo Kiesse did a standing-start 1K in front of the pack a few years ago at the Tour of Turkey with only a few seconds gap and made it, but he's a freak talent at that sort of thing (you should also watch that highlight)
signed - a guy who can/has done this at lower levels, and knows the math all too well.
(Right echappy?)
#34
fuggitivo solitario
Yes, i thought of the Kiesse win, but didn't include it as he was in a long break and the attacked his companions with about 3-4 km to go. But you are absolutely right, chain falls off in the crash, took him two or three tries to get it back on, and then still had enough to beat the pack. Granted, the pack had to slow down significantly when they entered the tricky turn that brought down Kiesse in the first place, but just remarkable.
Also +1 to Ygduf's point, though it's not exponential but cubic . This is why one should go from further out in a tailwind sprint as once you get up to speed, it's damn hard for anyone else behind you (who has to first make up a bike length, viz. go at a higher speed) to overtake you.
Also @hidayanra, i've never pulled off this sort of thing myself. Tried it once with a bit more than a mile to go in a crit and spent five hellish minutes dangling. Got passed with about 300 m to go and ended up 7th.
PS. The examples re: Stybar's win last year, Oscarito's first win, and Voeckler's GP Quebec don't apply. The first two are from small groups, where there's a lot more people watching going on than when you have dedicated sprint trains chasing. One could add Dan Martin's Lombardia win as it's exactly the same move that Oscarito pulled: attack from the back with about 700-800m to go and catch people off guard (which is perhaps the best card a non-sprinter has when there are about 5-10 people contesting the win). Voeckler's attack occurred on a hill and thus renders the conversation moot.
Also +1 to Ygduf's point, though it's not exponential but cubic . This is why one should go from further out in a tailwind sprint as once you get up to speed, it's damn hard for anyone else behind you (who has to first make up a bike length, viz. go at a higher speed) to overtake you.
Also @hidayanra, i've never pulled off this sort of thing myself. Tried it once with a bit more than a mile to go in a crit and spent five hellish minutes dangling. Got passed with about 300 m to go and ended up 7th.
PS. The examples re: Stybar's win last year, Oscarito's first win, and Voeckler's GP Quebec don't apply. The first two are from small groups, where there's a lot more people watching going on than when you have dedicated sprint trains chasing. One could add Dan Martin's Lombardia win as it's exactly the same move that Oscarito pulled: attack from the back with about 700-800m to go and catch people off guard (which is perhaps the best card a non-sprinter has when there are about 5-10 people contesting the win). Voeckler's attack occurred on a hill and thus renders the conversation moot.
#35
no cat contains
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Yes, i thought of the Kiesse win, but didn't include it as he was in a long break and the attacked his companions with about 3-4 km to go. But you are absolutely right, chain falls off in the crash, took him two or three tries to get it back on, and then still had enough to beat the pack. Granted, the pack had to slow down significantly when they entered the tricky turn that brought down Kiesse in the first place, but just remarkable.
Also +1 to Ygduf's point, though it's not exponential but cubic . This is why one should go from further out in a tailwind sprint as once you get up to speed, it's damn hard for anyone else behind you (who has to first make up a bike length, viz. go at a higher speed) to overtake you.
Also @hidayanra, i've never pulled off this sort of thing myself. Tried it once with a bit more than a mile to go in a crit and spent five hellish minutes dangling. Got passed with about 300 m to go and ended up 7th.
PS. The examples re: Stybar's win last year, Oscarito's first win, and Voeckler's GP Quebec don't apply. The first two are from small groups, where there's a lot more people watching going on than when you have dedicated sprint trains chasing. One could add Dan Martin's Lombardia win as it's exactly the same move that Oscarito pulled: attack from the back with about 700-800m to go and catch people off guard (which is perhaps the best card a non-sprinter has when there are about 5-10 people contesting the win). Voeckler's attack occurred on a hill and thus renders the conversation moot.
Also +1 to Ygduf's point, though it's not exponential but cubic . This is why one should go from further out in a tailwind sprint as once you get up to speed, it's damn hard for anyone else behind you (who has to first make up a bike length, viz. go at a higher speed) to overtake you.
Also @hidayanra, i've never pulled off this sort of thing myself. Tried it once with a bit more than a mile to go in a crit and spent five hellish minutes dangling. Got passed with about 300 m to go and ended up 7th.
PS. The examples re: Stybar's win last year, Oscarito's first win, and Voeckler's GP Quebec don't apply. The first two are from small groups, where there's a lot more people watching going on than when you have dedicated sprint trains chasing. One could add Dan Martin's Lombardia win as it's exactly the same move that Oscarito pulled: attack from the back with about 700-800m to go and catch people off guard (which is perhaps the best card a non-sprinter has when there are about 5-10 people contesting the win). Voeckler's attack occurred on a hill and thus renders the conversation moot.
#37
VeloSIRraptor
The biggest gains of VO2/Vector drugs are in the red blood cell sorts of gains, and thus you body is incredibly more efficient at keeping muscles going (debate rages about whether this is Lactate/Acid/Whatever), but high-efforts are specifically the areas of biggest gains when on vector/red-blood-cell sorts of drugs.
#38
VeloSIRraptor
So, he deserved the sobriquet later in his career, but at that point he either wasn't super fast, or he'd managed to go two whole years as a pro with one win and a 3rd place.
He was a capital R "racer" for sure, didn't need a power meter, didn't train a ton of miles, but knew how to WIN. He knew that day, just watched those highlights earlier today in fact!
#39
Riding the bike I love.
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I know this doesn't really count, but it is a pretty cool (and enjoyable to watch) win nonetheless. Jan Bakelants in stage 2 of TdF 2013.
https://youtu.be/niDVHGY9hYA And the power data for those interested:
Le Tour de France Stage 2
https://youtu.be/niDVHGY9hYA And the power data for those interested:
Le Tour de France Stage 2
#40
Senior Member
EPO era no one could get away because everyone was amped up. It just made the race to the sprint all that much harder.
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"...during the Lance years, being fit became the No. 1 thing. Totally the only thing. It’s a big part of what we do, but fitness is not the only thing. There’s skills, there’s tactics … there’s all kinds of stuff..." Tim Johnson
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