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Old 05-01-08, 12:16 PM
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TandemGeek
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Originally Posted by beyondbroke
I am ready to change this out as I have no faith in the stopping power of Winzip. I am equally disappointed at Santata for building up the power of this system when they know the issues with it so well. Shame on Santana!!!!
I could write quite a bit on this particular subject and it's various facets, but will attempt to restrain myself. It's unfortunate but true that disc brakes on tandems aren't a no-brainer. They work well for certain applications and teams, but certainly not all. Santana, which tends to err on the side of overkill coupled with over-zealous marketing, has introduced 2.5 rear disc systems during the past decade that have had shall we say, mixed results. Some owners swear by their Formula I / II and Winzip Discs, while others simply swear at them.

As for your situation, unless you've concluded you'd be better served by a pair of rim brakes and an Arai drum -- which may be the case -- your best bet is to (1) try the better pads suggested by Bloomingcyclist and (2) to make sure who ever works on the brake follows the instructions on how to set it up to a tee. I'd also suggest (3) installing an in-line cable adjuster in the brake housing that sits between your brake lever and the cable stop on the down tube so that you can make on-the-fly brake cable adjustments to compensate for pad wear. In fact, Avid now includes a very nice in-line adjuster with it's BB7 brakes.

Getting back to your ire with Santana and it's marketing material.... hey, it's marketing material! In fact, each year I look forward to receiving my annual Tandems and Tandeming Magazine and reading it cover-to-cover along side the previous year's edition just to see what's been changed. If you have a collection like I do you can see how Santana sometimes backs itself into a corner or sets itself up for trouble when their goal of providing the "best" sometimes butts up against consumers who have a different idea of "what's best". Brakes is one of those areas. If you read between the lines and have followed Santana's technical moves over the years it's pretty clear that they only recommend one basic configuration: Linear-pull cantilever rim brakes with a supplemental drum brake for teams over 400 lbs or who have special braking needs that exceed the capabilities of rim brakes.

It suffices to say, in each of their efforts to develop a disc brake system they first pronounced existing systems to be inadequate and set about to develop a disc that was "suitable" for use on tandems. Of course, therein lies the fatal flaw: disc brakes really aren't suitable or practical for all tandems. By the time they found and fielded their version of a "suitable" disc it was so complex that even enthusiasts and LBS mechanics would find themselves struggling to keep them working 'as designed'. No, not everyone struggled, but many did. Following the introduction of the Forumla, someone discovered that Avid's ball bearing disc brakes worked 'pretty well' on tandems for teams who fit the narrow profile of being a good candidate for a rear disc. In other words, teams that really didn't need a drag brake, but who wanted something that worked better (more stopping power / greater heat capacity) than a rear rim brake. As before, the Avid was pronouned unsuitable and, going further, was labeled as "unsafe" for use on tandems by Santana. Yes, they'd install one if a customer insisted and signed a waiver of liability, but that was about it. Frankly, I alway found it amusing that they'd make a customer sign a waiver for a brake that wasn't nearly as unsuitable and unsafe as the standard rim brakes that come on every tandem, given the rationale. Regardless, Santana set out to find a better brake and sourced the 'Winzip' from the same folks who provide IRD with it's Dual Banger. They also had been working on a larger disc rotor -- I like to think of it as the medium-size pizza pan with holes -- for several years with various different suppliers with mixed results. The first "big development" that wasn't was a 10" Galfer wavy rotor that had a tendency to permanently warp. They have since moved on to a different supplier and a more robust rotor which was introduced along with the Winzip.

Of course, all along the way 100's of tandems had since been fitted with Avid BB7 disc brakes that have, for the most part, worked pretty darn well. However, I would note that there was a bad batch of Avid's that went out early on with a very soft brake compound by mistake that would wear out in a single ride!! Avid fixed that little issue and gave new pads to anyone who called and complained. Brake drag has also been a bit of an issue and there are a couple of different ways to address that: I prefer a booster spring whereas others have installed in-line brake cable boosters, aka, travel agents or BPBs. As already mentioned, Avid has also been including an in-line brake cable adjuster to allow users to adjust out brake pad wear on the fly. Now, mind you, Avid's are not a substitute for a drag brake anymore than any other disc brake but still get used that way. In fact, I was somewhat dumb-founded that the folks on this past year's Santana Hawaiin tour were instructed to use their rear discs as drag brakes and to NOT use their front rim brakes!!! In fact, as I write that I'm still dumb-founded in light of everything that Santana has ever written or said about the do's and don'ts of disc brake use.

Frankly, at this point, the only real problem with the Winzip is probably the OEM pads. My guess is, they're fitted with the much softer MTB pads given how fast they wear. After all, most stock disc brakes are designed to be used on mountain bikes hitting speeds of 20 mph on dirt trails, not 50 mph on asphalt. The latter tends to be a bit more demanding on brake pads, hence the sintered metallics are the better choice. The other issues are only issues when you compare and contrast the Winzip with the Avid discs, which are far easier to set-up and maintain and which are priced far more reasonably.

Last edited by TandemGeek; 05-01-08 at 02:00 PM.
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