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Gaps in Bike Lane Routes

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Gaps in Bike Lane Routes

Old 04-05-15, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
The choosing where to put a bike path is more complicated than just the number of cars a day. So, 600 cars a day would be averaging 1 car a minute for 10 hours. Certainly some roads get more than that, some with less than that.
I too suspect the issue is more complicated than just the average number of cars a day. I'm also not sure how feasible "500 cars a day" would be. Hopefully @CrankyOne will clarify that.
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Old 04-05-15, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I can usually find bike parking within about 20 feet of the door of wherever I'm going, much closer than cars normally park. But, I find it annoying when I have to chain the bike up to a sign post, or lay it against a window because of inadequate planning.
That same "inadequate planning" also translates to the roads you share to get to your destination.
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Old 04-05-15, 09:47 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK

I'm hoping to advocate the building of a 50 mile "bike route" between Eugene and McKenzie Bridge. I have no doubt that the main highway gets over 1000 cars a day, but perhaps only 1 or 2 bikes a day do the whole 50 mile ride. It is hard to justify millions of dollars worth of infrastructure for a few hundred bikes a year, although the numbers may well increase somewhat if the infrastructure was put in place.
We should absolutely NEVER build a bridge until people are swimming across the river in large numbers.
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Old 04-06-15, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
That same "inadequate planning" also translates to the roads you share to get to your destination.
Perhaps, but different.
The roads are public.
While some sidewalks with bike parking are public (downtown Portland), I was thinking of private stores that just forget to put in bike parking, or not enough of it. Perhaps there need to be code changes (if they don't already exist). The government is picky about the parking areas for businesses, but do they also specify bike parking? Covered non-smoking bike parking?

I'm not sure why bike paths weren't put in a century ago, but I assume that the streets evolved, perhaps with sidewalks separating people from horses. Then cars were added at about the same time bikes started evolving at the beginning of the 1900's, with cars, bikes, and horses sharing the roads. As cars became dominant cars and bikes shared the roads.

In many places, I don't think there was a push for bike paths until the 1970's, when streets needed to be retrofitted for bike lanes, often with limited real-estate for cars and bikes to travel, along with car parking, and pedestrians, and preserving some greenery, all with impinging as little as possible on existing buildings.

I'm not sure how often roads are resurfaced vs being rebuilt. On one of my rides, there seem to be the exact same potholes in the road shoulders that I passed in the early 80's, so things don't seem to be changing very quickly.

Originally Posted by B. Carfree
We should absolutely NEVER build a bridge until people are swimming across the river in large numbers.
Build the bridge, and people will come... maybe.

The ride from Springfield to the base of the McKenzie Highway is about 55 miles, or maybe 65 to Eugene. Add 20 miles of uphill to get to the pass, and a few more to get to Sisters. If my proposed route adds 5 more miles and a few hills, then it becomes a very long ride to do it as a daytrip. That certainly limits the number of people doing it as a round-trip day trip. Of course, there might be more local riders, but get 20 or 30 miles down the road and one knocks out most of the daily commuters.

Now, creating a trip that takes two days to do from Eugene wouldn't be bad as it might benefit communities such as McKenzie Bridge, Sisters, and resorts such as Belnap that one might otherwise just pass by, but it still limits the riders.

Thinking of longer "trails". The Katy Trail in Missouri comes to mind. Starting in St. Charles, it gets hammered with use in the first few miles from St. Charles. 20 miles out to Defiance, and the traffic starts dropping dramatically. A few more miles out to Marthasville, and there is just nobody doing the ride. I never made it much beyond that. The trail did pass other larger metro areas, so there would be a spike in usage near each metro area, with long sections with low usage between them.

The on-road bike route from Eugene to Portland is mostly on rural roads, and passes several cities, so I have no doubt sections get heavy use. Going from Eugene to Sisters/Bend, there are far fewer big communities to pass.
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Old 04-06-15, 07:38 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
Perhaps, but different.
The roads are public.
While some sidewalks with bike parking are public (downtown Portland), I was thinking of private stores that just forget to put in bike parking, or not enough of it. Perhaps there need to be code changes (if they don't already exist). The government is picky about the parking areas for businesses, but do they also specify bike parking? Covered non-smoking bike parking?
You hit the nail on the head with the need for code changes. The issue is that while streets are indeed public, bear in mind that the city dutifully puts in infrastructure for the parking of automobiles on a very routine basis... in the form of parking meters... but what is done for bicycles?

Where it comes to larger strip malls and shopping centers, typically there is building code that dictates the number of automobile parking spots in a private parking lot for the volume of the shops... but again, no building code for the cyclist parking... or woefully inadequate bicycle parking... and poorly located or identified. For example... my local grocery store has a bike rack out front... a 4 slot bike rack, which is placed right next to a column at the front of the store, effectively blocking 2 of the bike parking spots. The result is that bicycle riding shoppers end up chaining bikes to poles in the area. My local "health food" grocery has no bicycle parking spots in their lot... which means the health conscious bike riding shoppers end up chaining bikes to light poles in the parking lot.

So yes, the code must be refined and be grandfathered in... it cannot be set such that only new shopping centers have to accommodate cyclists... such parking must be retrofitted just as changes for handicapped persons were retrofitted (once the ADA laws were in place).

BTW regarding your 55 mile and 65 mile trips... hardly reasonable for the average commuting cyclist... but such routes should be built none the less as even the longest stretch of interstate freeway is used by locals for short trips. No, it isn't practical to expect commuting cyclists to go 55 miles or even 20 miles... but 29% of the work force is within 5 miles of their place of work, and those people should be well accommodated. Just removing 10% of local MV traffic from the roads will make a dramatic impact for those who do have to commute longer distances by motor vehicle.

Remember the maps we were looking at early in this thread were local maps... not maps from city to city... if it is difficult to go about locally, people will not bike.
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Old 04-06-15, 07:40 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK

I was thinking of private stores that just forget to put in bike parking, or not enough of it. .
Locally, most privates store just do not want to be bothered with installing bike parking, and most that do have bike parking, put the bike parking facility as far from the front entrance as possible, off on the BFE portion of their property.
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Old 04-06-15, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
Locally, most privates store just do not want to be bothered with installing bike parking, and most that do have bike parking, put the bike parking facility as far from the front entrance as possible, off on the BFE portion of their property.
Exactly... but consider if these local stores are depending on the use of on street parking for their driving patrons, shouldn't the same stores also depend on city provided bike parking, rather than having to install bike racks of their own?

Portland and Austin manage to provide bike parking in their downtown areas on nearly every block... it doesn't take much, and both cities use it as a form of public art. (they do not use "wheel bender" racks)

Here is an interesting web page from Baltimore discussing the bike parking issue.
https://www.bmorebikes.com/category/parking/page/3/

Last edited by genec; 04-06-15 at 07:57 AM.
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Old 04-06-15, 08:22 AM
  #108  
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Here's a dumb question. More bikes equals less fuel. Fuel that is taxed and some of that goes into infrastructure.
We may be along way from the tipping point of not enough revenue but then there are already revenue problems in most cities I would bet.

Add a difficult Governor *coughwalkercough* and uh oh.
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Old 04-06-15, 08:29 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by intransit1217
Here's a dumb question. More bikes equals less fuel. Fuel that is taxed and some of that goes into infrastructure.
We may be along way from the tipping point of not enough revenue but then there are already revenue problems in most cities I would bet.

Add a difficult Governor *coughwalkercough* and uh oh.
Fuel taxes feed interstate highways. Homeowner property taxes, sales taxes, and developer fees feed surface streets that cyclists use. This is true for most states... I think Wyoming may be different due to their population density.

Income taxes go to federal funds that provide grants for things like bike paths and HOV lanes.
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Old 04-06-15, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by intransit1217
I stand corrected. However, even with the additions put back in, would you consider DC an efficient city to travel by bike in?

Compare to Phoenix street system, which of course has it's own problems if you want to go NE to SW. Zigzagging is less than quick.
I have no problems biking anywhere in DC. Although I'm a relatively experienced cyclist.

FWIW, what makes DC tricky are the limited crossings over the rivers and to a lesser extent Rock Creek Park. Not particularly efficient by car and less efficient, IMO, by bike. In the end though, the hills make travel harder than a limited supply of acceptable routes.
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Old 04-06-15, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Uh sure, and you drive across country to get to work, eh?

All trips are local. Consider that the average American (yes, there are always outliers) travels less that 15 miles to work... 68% of the population goes less than 15 miles. 51 percent go less than 10 miles to work... and 29% of the workforce lives within a mere 5 miles of the office. Can you bike 5 miles?
Based on my own observations, family obligations, weather, and various aches/injuries prevent lots of folks from biking ~10 miles daily. The real outliers are the folks willing to bike commute regardless of these other factors. My take is that the big thing that prevents more biking is housing and land-use policy. But that cycling friendly roads/accommodations make cities more attractive.
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Old 04-06-15, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by invisiblehand
Based on my own observations, family obligations, weather, and various aches/injuries prevent lots of folks from biking ~10 miles daily. The real outliers are the folks willing to bike commute regardless of these other factors.
Meh. We have enormous incentives to drive in north america -- including direct subsidy. Take those away and cycling, walking, and transit use will skyrocket.
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Old 04-06-15, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
Meh. We have enormous incentives to drive in north america -- including direct subsidy. Take those away and cycling, walking, and transit use will skyrocket.
Take those away? Any plan on how those incentives should be taken away, or by whom? Any estimates on the prospects for your "take those away" proposal in the foreseeable future?
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Old 04-06-15, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Take those away? Any plan on how those incentives should be taken away, or by whom? Any estimates on the prospects for your "take those away" proposal in the foreseeable future?
The only way to practically remove those incentives to drive is to counter the incentives with reasons to avoid MV use, such as overcrowed roadways, pollution and dependence on foreign oil... otherwise the very strong oil and motor vehicle lobbies will continue to ensure that such incentives remain in place. The other thing required is a means for alternative transportation.... be it bikes, rail, bus or robot uber car.

Overcrowded roadways are being used as a disincentive to drive in places like San Francisco, New York and Portland... and of course London, where they charge a fee to enter the core city with a car. Congestion Charge (Official) - Transport for London
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Old 04-06-15, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Take those away? Any plan on how those incentives should be taken away, or by whom? Any estimates on the prospects for your "take those away" proposal in the foreseeable future?
It's happening here. Another major arterial is losing two big lanes and gaining two bike lanes...

Southeast Portland's Foster Road will lose auto lanes for bike, turn lanes as part of safety plan | OregonLive.com
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Old 04-06-15, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
BTW regarding your 55 mile and 65 mile trips... hardly reasonable for the average commuting cyclist... but such routes should be built none the less as even the longest stretch of interstate freeway is used by locals for short trips.
I was thinking of routes for tourist cyclists... Yes, commuters max out at about 20 to 30 mile each way. Most tourists also max out at about 100 miles a day. Planning 150 mile plus day trips become long.

Thinking of the freeways, very few private individuals drive the longer freeways (I-5, I-70, I-40/44) from end to end, although they do pick up commercial traffic. The previous "gaps" in the freeway systems were huge hassles.

With the cycle tourists as I was mentioning, one of the benefits of designing longer routes is that they may use local resources more heavily, and thus benefit the economy. Tourists may be self-supporting for day trips, but start using hotels, motels, restaurants, and etc for multi-day trips.

Perhaps one should start considering making high quality coast to coast cycle routes (although nobody wants to do the same route by bike over and over again).

Originally Posted by intransit1217
Here's a dumb question. More bikes equals less fuel. Fuel that is taxed and some of that goes into infrastructure.
We may be along way from the tipping point of not enough revenue but then there are already revenue problems in most cities I would bet.
Originally Posted by genec
Fuel taxes feed interstate highways. Homeowner property taxes, sales taxes, and developer fees feed surface streets that cyclists use. This is true for most states... I think Wyoming may be different due to their population density.

Income taxes go to federal funds that provide grants for things like bike paths and HOV lanes.
One of the things that I will point out is that building shoulders on the busy roads benefit cars, and separating bikes from traffic benefits cars. So, there would be reasons that a car driver should be interested in improving bike infrastructure.

Oregon has been grappling with high efficiency vehicles for quite some time. A decade ago they came up with the Prius Tax. It quickly went away as people pointed out the need to support high efficiency vehicles, but the state has been considering special electric vehicle taxes too.

Thinking of cars, they are very expensive. There is a huge segment of the population that depends on building and servicing cars, distributing fuel, and etc. However, I wonder how much of that is completely lost. Insurance is expensive, and when a $20,000 car is destroyed, that money is lost. Fuel bought from overseas has minimal direct benefit for the US economy.

On the other hand, put an extra $200 to $500 a month into a cycle commuter's pocket, and more of that money may go back into the local economy.
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Old 04-06-15, 10:23 AM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
It's happening here. Another major arterial is losing two big lanes and gaining two bike lanes...

Southeast Portland's Foster Road will lose auto lanes for bike, turn lanes as part of safety plan | OregonLive.com
Oh yeah... safety... I forgot that one. So at least 4 ways to remove incentives to drive.

They did something similar here... took a 2 lane either way 35MPH road with stop signs and turned it into a 25MPH road single lane road with traffic circles that actually handles traffic flow better due to the removal of the stop signs. The lower speeds make it easier for cyclists and pedestrians to negotiate the road too. Local businesses were skeptical at first, but have since noticed more foot traffic, thus a slight uptick in business.
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Old 04-06-15, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
I was thinking of routes for tourist cyclists... Yes, commuters max out at about 20 to 30 mile each way. Most tourists also max out at about 100 miles a day. Planning 150 mile plus day trips become long.

Thinking of the freeways, very few private individuals drive the longer freeways (I-5, I-70, I-40/44) from end to end, although they do pick up commercial traffic. The previous "gaps" in the freeway systems were huge hassles.

With the cycle tourists as I was mentioning, one of the benefits of designing longer routes is that they may use local resources more heavily, and thus benefit the economy. Tourists may be self-supporting for day trips, but start using hotels, motels, restaurants, and etc for multi-day trips.

Perhaps one should start considering making high quality coast to coast cycle routes (although nobody wants to do the same route by bike over and over again).



One of the things that I will point out is that building shoulders on the busy roads benefit cars, and separating bikes from traffic benefits cars. So, there would be reasons that a car driver should be interested in improving bike infrastructure.

Oregon has been grappling with high efficiency vehicles for quite some time. A decade ago they came up with the Prius Tax. It quickly went away as people pointed out the need to support high efficiency vehicles, but the state has been considering special electric vehicle taxes too.

Thinking of cars, they are very expensive. There is a huge segment of the population that depends on building and servicing cars, distributing fuel, and etc. However, I wonder how much of that is completely lost. Insurance is expensive, and when a $20,000 car is destroyed, that money is lost. Fuel bought from overseas has minimal direct benefit for the US economy.

On the other hand, put an extra $200 to $500 a month into a cycle commuter's pocket, and more of that money may go back into the local economy.
I could see something like cyclotourism working in the right areas... in fact, I was very disappointed in what San Diego did several years back with an extension to the OB bike path. They did add more bike path, (although the surface is the poorest sort of concrete pour I have ever seen) and extended the bike path into an area known as Mission Valley. However, where they failed is in not extending the path all the way to local hotels... If they had done so, they would have opened up a bikeway for visiting tourists all the way to the beach areas... and perhaps opened up the opportunities for bike rental businesses, bike path food stands and even guided tours. But no, they maintained the same car-centric mentality that often prevails... with the result that tourists will likely have to drive to the beach.

The real problems with our visions is that far too many decision makers tend to think of bikes as toys, and not as a means for transportation or even revenue.
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Old 04-06-15, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
I could see something like cyclotourism working in the right areas... in fact, I was very disappointed in what San Diego did several years back with an extension to the OB bike path. They did add more bike path, (although the surface is the poorest sort of concrete pour I have ever seen) and extended the bike path into an area known as Mission Valley. However, where they failed is in not extending the path all the way to local hotels... If they had done so, they would have opened up a bikeway for visiting tourists all the way to the beach areas... and perhaps opened up the opportunities for bike rental businesses, bike path food stands and even guided tours. But no, they maintained the same car-centric mentality that often prevails... with the result that tourists will likely have to drive to the beach.

The real problems with our visions is that far too many decision makers tend to think of bikes as toys, and not as a means for transportation or even revenue.
The Katy Trail in Missouri is made with a pea gravel/sand surface. It isn't bad for riding on, but it sure would have been nice if they had chosen to pave it.

I heard that the trail had a lot of local opposition, but there are several restaurants, bike shops, and bed and breakfasts that benefit from it. It only takes a couple of cyclists a day to give a serious boost to a bed and breakfast.

And, if a bike trail makes the difference between a restaurant or no restaurant, the locals might even benefit.
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Old 04-06-15, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
It's happening here. Another major arterial is losing two big lanes and gaining two bike lanes...

Southeast Portland's Foster Road will lose auto lanes for bike, turn lanes as part of safety plan | OregonLive.com
That's great when its done in appropriate locations, but its not a realistic option for many if not most locations.
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Old 04-06-15, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
That's great when its done in appropriate locations, but its not a realistic option for many if not most locations.
I strongly disagree.
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Old 04-06-15, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
I strongly disagree.
But much of what you base that on falls outside of basic transportation needs, being mostly about your environmental and social ideologies. Fair observation?
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Old 04-07-15, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
That's great when its done in appropriate locations, but its not a realistic option for many if not most locations.
As you probably know, Seattle uses the daily traffic volume as the main criterion to determine whether or not "road dieting" is feasible for a particular roadway. Simply put, 25,000 cars per day is the threshold. Arterial streets like Lake City Way and 15th Ave NW won't have their current lanes taken away as they both carry more than 35,000 cars daily, but most other roadways have less than 25,000 cars per day, thereby being potential candidates for lane reduction.
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Old 04-07-15, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Exactly... but consider if these local stores are depending on the use of on street parking for their driving patrons, shouldn't the same stores also depend on city provided bike parking, rather than having to install bike racks of their own?
The only local businesses that have modern and well thought out bike parking, only did so after years of dealing with large numbers of bicycles parked in ramshackle fashion in various locations on their property. Basically, demand has to come first with small local businesses in the area, then they will build it, since there is no real incentive from the municipality to do it beforehand.

Our local cycling advocacy group installed several bike parking stands around our city, but the cost and permitting process was extensive, limiting the number of bike parking stands being installed, and most of those bike parking stands could effectively accommodate only one bike at a time.
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Old 04-07-15, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
The only local businesses that have modern and well thought out bike parking, only did so after years of dealing with large numbers of bicycles parked in ramshackle fashion in various locations on their property. Basically, demand has to come first with small local businesses in the area, then they will build it, since there is no real incentive from the municipality to do it beforehand.

Our local cycling advocacy group installed several bike parking stands around our city, but the cost and permitting process was extensive, limiting the number of bike parking stands being installed, and most of those bike parking stands could effectively accommodate only one bike at a time.
While that may be true in your area, in other places, changes in local politics and building codes DO put ample bike parking in place.

Streets were not paved by local businesses, nor were parking meters installed by local businesses; this sort of thing is done at the municipal level, and paid for by city monies. To get the same done for cyclists means that cycling must be recognized by city leaders as a viable means of transportation.
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