Gaps in Bike Lane Routes
#126
Senior Member
I too suspect the issue is more complicated than just the average number of cars a day. I'm also not sure how feasible "500 cars a day" would be. Hopefully @CrankyOne will clarify that.
The CROW manual says that sharing is OK up to 2,000 per day but most engineers will state that as a practical matter 1,000 to occasionally 1,500 is the maximum (assuming the ratios hold up).
These are based on their experiences of what environment people are willing to bicycle in. If there are too many cars then people will not feel safe on a bicycle and will choose other transportation, like driving a car themselves.
Last edited by CrankyOne; 04-07-15 at 08:07 AM.
#127
Senior Member
Each mile someone chooses not to drive, while decreasing revenue from gas taxes, decreases costs (buildouts, maintenance, LE) considerably more. Put another way, if everyone stopped driving today and began riding bicycles instead, revenues from user fees would go to zero but the required funds from general funds to support the road network would drop by about 60% vs today.
#129
Banned
While that may be true in your area, in other places, changes in local politics and building codes DO put ample bike parking in place.
Streets were not paved by local businesses, nor were parking meters installed by local businesses; this sort of thing is done at the municipal level, and paid for by city monies. To get the same done for cyclists means that cycling must be recognized by city leaders as a viable means of transportation.
Streets were not paved by local businesses, nor were parking meters installed by local businesses; this sort of thing is done at the municipal level, and paid for by city monies. To get the same done for cyclists means that cycling must be recognized by city leaders as a viable means of transportation.
As I see it, our city officials are not going to mandate local businesses to add bike parking to their parking agenda any time soon, and leaving it up to the individual business' discretion.
#130
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Locally, our city officials removed all of the on street parking meters, and replaced them with 2 hour free on street parking, this was done to entice the shopping public back after losing them to newly built shopping malls on the outskirts of the city(with free parking). Also added were inexpensive longer term metered parking lots to accommodate business employees working within the city shopping area.
As I see it, our city officials are not going to mandate local businesses to add bike parking to their parking agenda any time soon, and leaving it up to the individual business' discretion.
As I see it, our city officials are not going to mandate local businesses to add bike parking to their parking agenda any time soon, and leaving it up to the individual business' discretion.
#131
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Approximately 48% of road building & maintenance comes from user fees (vehicle sales tax, vehicle license tax, gas tax). The rest comes from general funds and typically apportioned out of property taxes.
Each mile someone chooses not to drive, while decreasing revenue from gas taxes, decreases costs (buildouts, maintenance, LE) considerably more. Put another way, if everyone stopped driving today and began riding bicycles instead, revenues from user fees would go to zero but the required funds from general funds to support the road network would drop by about 60% vs today.
Each mile someone chooses not to drive, while decreasing revenue from gas taxes, decreases costs (buildouts, maintenance, LE) considerably more. Put another way, if everyone stopped driving today and began riding bicycles instead, revenues from user fees would go to zero but the required funds from general funds to support the road network would drop by about 60% vs today.
#132
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500 per day (and max 18 mph speed) is the general rule that Dutch traffic engineers use for the practical level where bicyclists and cars can safely share the road. Above 500 per day they look at ratios of bikes to cars beginning with 2:1 up to about 1000 and increasing to 4:1 at 2000. EG, bicycle riders must outnumber cars. If the ratios won't work then they might first try to reroute motor traffic to bring it down to the proper ratio (filtered permeability) or build separate facilities for bicycle riders, typically a protected cycletrack.
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#133
Senior Member
Thanks for the reply. Now, how do they determine if the ratio doesn't work out due to factors other than the volume of motor traffic? I'm no traffic engineer, but if 500 cars a day (i.e. less than one car per minute for 10 hours) doesn't get 2 people out riding per hour (2:1), I'd assume there are other reasons that discourage the use of bicycles as a mode of transport. Or did I not understand your explanation correctly?
If a proposed cycle street is predicted to have 1000 cars per day but only 1500 bikes then they will either try to reduce the number of cars or install a protected cycletrack as this ratio as-is would be inappropriate for a cycle street. A key method of reducing the number of cars is filtered permeability. At some point the street is blocked for cars but allows people walking or riding bikes to pass through. This forces drivers to stay on a main road and enter the calmed area closer to their destination. Another is the use of opposing one-ways. Here a street is one-way in one direction for about half it's length and one-way in the other direction for the other half. The purpose of both of these is to encourage drivers to stay on main routes (connector or arterial in the U.S.) for most of their journey and to not use lessor routes (residential streets, bike streets, etc.) as rat-run shortcuts. This also lessens the likelihood of conflict causing drivers to get frustrated and tailgate bicycle riders. Most people are OK driving a short distance at 11 MPH but get frustrated doing so for longer distances.
They also know that distance has an effect on how safe and comfortable people are with a given route. The longer the route the greater the ratio must be. While 2:1 (1000 bikes per day : 500 cars per day) might be fine for a 300 meter distance, they will want to see 4:1 for a 1km route.
Hope this helps?
Last edited by CrankyOne; 04-09-15 at 07:06 AM.
#134
Banned
Since it was the city that provided the free parking in the public domain to motor vehicles, that same city should also provide free parking to cyclists, also for the same reasons... to entice the shopping public. The business did not put in the parking meters nor remove them, why should they put in bike racks.
#135
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Try and take away one on street auto parking spot, or auto parking lot space, and the fight is on between the city and many business owners, something our city is not willing to take on at this time, leaving it up to each business's discretion (and expense) to choose whether to have bicycle parking or not.
Bikes parking can however often be provided on sidewalks, thus not putting a dent in the space for motorists. But until secure bicycle parking space is available, there won't be any take up of cycling... beyond what exists today.
#136
Banned
As of recently, the city officials, along with law enforcement, were advocating a city wide ban on cyclists over the age of 12 for riding bicycles on the sidewalk, and in light of the proposed ban, goes the possibility of sidewalk bicycle parking implementation by the city.
#137
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As of recently, the city officials, along with law enforcement, were advocating a city wide ban on cyclists over the age of 12 for riding bicycles on the sidewalk, and in light of the proposed ban, goes the possibility of sidewalk bicycle parking implementation by the city.
#138
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As of recently, the city officials, along with law enforcement, were advocating a city wide ban on cyclists over the age of 12 for riding bicycles on the sidewalk, and in light of the proposed ban, goes the possibility of sidewalk bicycle parking implementation by the city.
But ultimately yet another display of automobile centric thinking.
#139
Senior Member
Good post on Dutch bicycle streets: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2...et-in-utrecht/
#140
Senior Member
Try and take away one on street auto parking spot, or auto parking lot space, and the fight is on between the city and many business owners, something our city is not willing to take on at this time, leaving it up to each business's discretion (and expense) to choose whether to have bicycle parking or not.
#141
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Try and take away one on street auto parking spot, or auto parking lot space, and the fight is on between the city and many business owners, something our city is not willing to take on at this time, leaving it up to each business's discretion (and expense) to choose whether to have bicycle parking or not.
#142
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Exactly. Seattle has been providing more bike racks and more bike lanes in the city centre lately, resulting in the loss of some on-street car parking. That has sparked some outrage from the local business owners who fear it will drive customers away.
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#143
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They have pretty good data on the volume of cars, trucks, and bikes along various routes and good data on how road and building changes affect that. They can usually come pretty close to predicting the volumes of each on a new route be that a cycle street or something with more motor volume and segregated bikeways (cycletracks or side paths as they generally no longer install painted bike lanes). They know for instance that better facilities that feel safer and more comfortable will increase the number of people riding bicycles and decrease the number driving. They know that in a fairly dense area that a 3:1 ratio cycle street will encourage more people to ride bicycles for various trips than a 2:1 ratio.
If a proposed cycle street is predicted to have 1000 cars per day but only 1500 bikes then they will either try to reduce the number of cars or install a protected cycletrack as this ratio as-is would be inappropriate for a cycle street. A key method of reducing the number of cars is filtered permeability. At some point the street is blocked for cars but allows people walking or riding bikes to pass through. This forces drivers to stay on a main road and enter the calmed area closer to their destination. Another is the use of opposing one-ways. Here a street is one-way in one direction for about half it's length and one-way in the other direction for the other half. The purpose of both of these is to encourage drivers to stay on main routes (connector or arterial in the U.S.) for most of their journey and to not use lessor routes (residential streets, bike streets, etc.) as rat-run shortcuts. This also lessens the likelihood of conflict causing drivers to get frustrated and tailgate bicycle riders. Most people are OK driving a short distance at 11 MPH but get frustrated doing so for longer distances.
They also know that distance has an effect on how safe and comfortable people are with a given route. The longer the route the greater the ratio must be. While 2:1 (1000 bikes per day : 500 cars per day) might be fine for a 300 meter distance, they will want to see 4:1 for a 1km route.
Hope this helps?
If a proposed cycle street is predicted to have 1000 cars per day but only 1500 bikes then they will either try to reduce the number of cars or install a protected cycletrack as this ratio as-is would be inappropriate for a cycle street. A key method of reducing the number of cars is filtered permeability. At some point the street is blocked for cars but allows people walking or riding bikes to pass through. This forces drivers to stay on a main road and enter the calmed area closer to their destination. Another is the use of opposing one-ways. Here a street is one-way in one direction for about half it's length and one-way in the other direction for the other half. The purpose of both of these is to encourage drivers to stay on main routes (connector or arterial in the U.S.) for most of their journey and to not use lessor routes (residential streets, bike streets, etc.) as rat-run shortcuts. This also lessens the likelihood of conflict causing drivers to get frustrated and tailgate bicycle riders. Most people are OK driving a short distance at 11 MPH but get frustrated doing so for longer distances.
They also know that distance has an effect on how safe and comfortable people are with a given route. The longer the route the greater the ratio must be. While 2:1 (1000 bikes per day : 500 cars per day) might be fine for a 300 meter distance, they will want to see 4:1 for a 1km route.
Hope this helps?
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#144
Banned
Many businesses in the U.S. do not think that people who ride bicycles are valid customers. Their view of bicycle riders is that they are primarily MAMILs (who they would like to run over for blocking the lane and who they don't want clickety clacking through their store with BO) along with a few SS hipsters thrown in for fun. They don't see normal people riding bicycles.
#145
Senior Member
Yeah, thanks. I need some time to absorb it all, but I think I have a good idea what you're talking about. My only question at this point is, can we apply the same principle to the various cities in the U.S.? For instance, the city I live in is quite hilly - much more so than the flat Dutch cities. Would we be able to expect a similar bike-to-car ratio here if we had the same type of road arrangement and bike infrastructure as, say, Utrecht?
If we want as many people riding as who are willing to then we still need to design each street, roadway, and junction to Dutch standards. Or better. If the ratios don't work for a bicycle street then we likely need to either make them work or not use a bicycle street and instead install cycletracks or side paths.
Hills are not necessarily a major roadblock though. Amsterdam and northern parts of The Netherlands are flat but southern areas are quite hilly (think spring classics and Amstel Gold) and yet these still have high numbers of bicycle riders. Also, just because there's a hill a mile from me doesn't mean that I can't ride my bike to the grocery that's a fairly flat mile the other way (the vast majority of bicycling in The Netherlands is not commuting to work but going to dinner, grocery, and school).
You may have other things going for you like better weather or employers willing to pay incentives to ride so that they can reduce healthcare costs (Employers pay about $9,000 per employee per year in healthcare with an estimated $3700 of this due to chronic diseases caused by obesity and lack of activity) and the costs of providing free employee parking.
Last edited by CrankyOne; 04-10-15 at 06:56 AM.
#146
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And has it? Or are bicycle riding customers now arriving?
#147
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Locally, many local business owners have given a name to a number of cyclists.... GMOBs, (grown men on bikes)....... not wearing helmets, smoking cigarettes while riding, wearing street clothes....and riding around slowly on BMXs.... and as business owners see it, in order to case out a neighborhood for soft targets to steal from.
#148
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#149
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The businesses I patronize in the city centre seem to have enough customers today.
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#150
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I haven't verified this yet, but I remember reading an article that talked about the Dutch government changing the traffic laws to allow fast cyclists ('wielrenners') to ride in the general purpose lane so the utility cyclists ('fietsers') can ride more safely in the bike lanes.
In the bicycle paradises people keep talking about, most of the riders ride slowly.