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Gaps in Bike Lane Routes

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Gaps in Bike Lane Routes

Old 04-07-15, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by daihard
I too suspect the issue is more complicated than just the average number of cars a day. I'm also not sure how feasible "500 cars a day" would be. Hopefully @CrankyOne will clarify that.
500 per day (and max 18 mph speed) is the general rule that Dutch traffic engineers use for the practical level where bicyclists and cars can safely share the road. Above 500 per day they look at ratios of bikes to cars beginning with 2:1 up to about 1000 and increasing to 4:1 at 2000. EG, bicycle riders must outnumber cars. If the ratios won't work then they might first try to reroute motor traffic to bring it down to the proper ratio (filtered permeability) or build separate facilities for bicycle riders, typically a protected cycletrack.

The CROW manual says that sharing is OK up to 2,000 per day but most engineers will state that as a practical matter 1,000 to occasionally 1,500 is the maximum (assuming the ratios hold up).

These are based on their experiences of what environment people are willing to bicycle in. If there are too many cars then people will not feel safe on a bicycle and will choose other transportation, like driving a car themselves.

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Old 04-07-15, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by intransit1217
Here's a dumb question. More bikes equals less fuel. Fuel that is taxed and some of that goes into infrastructure.
We may be along way from the tipping point of not enough revenue but then there are already revenue problems in most cities I would bet.
Approximately 48% of road building & maintenance comes from user fees (vehicle sales tax, vehicle license tax, gas tax). The rest comes from general funds and typically apportioned out of property taxes.

Each mile someone chooses not to drive, while decreasing revenue from gas taxes, decreases costs (buildouts, maintenance, LE) considerably more. Put another way, if everyone stopped driving today and began riding bicycles instead, revenues from user fees would go to zero but the required funds from general funds to support the road network would drop by about 60% vs today.
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Old 04-07-15, 08:03 AM
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This post gives good information about cycling root. Thanks to all for your suggestions.
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Old 04-07-15, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
While that may be true in your area, in other places, changes in local politics and building codes DO put ample bike parking in place.

Streets were not paved by local businesses, nor were parking meters installed by local businesses; this sort of thing is done at the municipal level, and paid for by city monies. To get the same done for cyclists means that cycling must be recognized by city leaders as a viable means of transportation.
Locally, our city officials removed all of the on street parking meters, and replaced them with 2 hour free on street parking, this was done to entice the shopping public back after losing them to newly built shopping malls on the outskirts of the city(with free parking). Also added were inexpensive longer term metered parking lots to accommodate business employees working within the city shopping area.
As I see it, our city officials are not going to mandate local businesses to add bike parking to their parking agenda any time soon, and leaving it up to the individual business' discretion.
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Old 04-07-15, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
Locally, our city officials removed all of the on street parking meters, and replaced them with 2 hour free on street parking, this was done to entice the shopping public back after losing them to newly built shopping malls on the outskirts of the city(with free parking). Also added were inexpensive longer term metered parking lots to accommodate business employees working within the city shopping area.
As I see it, our city officials are not going to mandate local businesses to add bike parking to their parking agenda any time soon, and leaving it up to the individual business' discretion.
Since it was the city that provided the free parking in the public domain to motor vehicles, that same city should also provide free parking to cyclists, also for the same reasons... to entice the shopping public. The business did not put in the parking meters nor remove them, why should they put in bike racks.
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Old 04-07-15, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
Approximately 48% of road building & maintenance comes from user fees (vehicle sales tax, vehicle license tax, gas tax). The rest comes from general funds and typically apportioned out of property taxes.

Each mile someone chooses not to drive, while decreasing revenue from gas taxes, decreases costs (buildouts, maintenance, LE) considerably more. Put another way, if everyone stopped driving today and began riding bicycles instead, revenues from user fees would go to zero but the required funds from general funds to support the road network would drop by about 60% vs today.
And the wear and tear on the roads would drop considerably, thus requiring far less expensive repair. Win Win
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Old 04-08-15, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
500 per day (and max 18 mph speed) is the general rule that Dutch traffic engineers use for the practical level where bicyclists and cars can safely share the road. Above 500 per day they look at ratios of bikes to cars beginning with 2:1 up to about 1000 and increasing to 4:1 at 2000. EG, bicycle riders must outnumber cars. If the ratios won't work then they might first try to reroute motor traffic to bring it down to the proper ratio (filtered permeability) or build separate facilities for bicycle riders, typically a protected cycletrack.
Thanks for the reply. Now, how do they determine if the ratio doesn't work out due to factors other than the volume of motor traffic? I'm no traffic engineer, but if 500 cars a day (i.e. less than one car per minute for 10 hours) doesn't get 2 people out riding per hour (2:1), I'd assume there are other reasons that discourage the use of bicycles as a mode of transport. Or did I not understand your explanation correctly?
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Old 04-09-15, 07:00 AM
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Originally Posted by daihard
Thanks for the reply. Now, how do they determine if the ratio doesn't work out due to factors other than the volume of motor traffic? I'm no traffic engineer, but if 500 cars a day (i.e. less than one car per minute for 10 hours) doesn't get 2 people out riding per hour (2:1), I'd assume there are other reasons that discourage the use of bicycles as a mode of transport. Or did I not understand your explanation correctly?
They have pretty good data on the volume of cars, trucks, and bikes along various routes and good data on how road and building changes affect that. They can usually come pretty close to predicting the volumes of each on a new route be that a cycle street or something with more motor volume and segregated bikeways (cycletracks or side paths as they generally no longer install painted bike lanes). They know for instance that better facilities that feel safer and more comfortable will increase the number of people riding bicycles and decrease the number driving. They know that in a fairly dense area that a 3:1 ratio cycle street will encourage more people to ride bicycles for various trips than a 2:1 ratio.

If a proposed cycle street is predicted to have 1000 cars per day but only 1500 bikes then they will either try to reduce the number of cars or install a protected cycletrack as this ratio as-is would be inappropriate for a cycle street. A key method of reducing the number of cars is filtered permeability. At some point the street is blocked for cars but allows people walking or riding bikes to pass through. This forces drivers to stay on a main road and enter the calmed area closer to their destination. Another is the use of opposing one-ways. Here a street is one-way in one direction for about half it's length and one-way in the other direction for the other half. The purpose of both of these is to encourage drivers to stay on main routes (connector or arterial in the U.S.) for most of their journey and to not use lessor routes (residential streets, bike streets, etc.) as rat-run shortcuts. This also lessens the likelihood of conflict causing drivers to get frustrated and tailgate bicycle riders. Most people are OK driving a short distance at 11 MPH but get frustrated doing so for longer distances.

They also know that distance has an effect on how safe and comfortable people are with a given route. The longer the route the greater the ratio must be. While 2:1 (1000 bikes per day : 500 cars per day) might be fine for a 300 meter distance, they will want to see 4:1 for a 1km route.

Hope this helps?

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Old 04-09-15, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Since it was the city that provided the free parking in the public domain to motor vehicles, that same city should also provide free parking to cyclists, also for the same reasons... to entice the shopping public. The business did not put in the parking meters nor remove them, why should they put in bike racks.
Try and take away one on street auto parking spot, or auto parking lot space, and the fight is on between the city and many business owners, something our city is not willing to take on at this time, leaving it up to each business's discretion (and expense) to choose whether to have bicycle parking or not.
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Old 04-09-15, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
Try and take away one on street auto parking spot, or auto parking lot space, and the fight is on between the city and many business owners, something our city is not willing to take on at this time, leaving it up to each business's discretion (and expense) to choose whether to have bicycle parking or not.
Yup, auto centric thinking is strong in the US. The irony of course is that if more people cycled, there WOULD BE more automobile parking spaces. Sigh.

Bikes parking can however often be provided on sidewalks, thus not putting a dent in the space for motorists. But until secure bicycle parking space is available, there won't be any take up of cycling... beyond what exists today.
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Old 04-09-15, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Bikes parking can however often be provided on sidewalks, thus not putting a dent in the space for motorists. But until secure bicycle parking space is available, there won't be any take up of cycling... beyond what exists today.
As of recently, the city officials, along with law enforcement, were advocating a city wide ban on cyclists over the age of 12 for riding bicycles on the sidewalk, and in light of the proposed ban, goes the possibility of sidewalk bicycle parking implementation by the city.
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Old 04-09-15, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
As of recently, the city officials, along with law enforcement, were advocating a city wide ban on cyclists over the age of 12 for riding bicycles on the sidewalk, and in light of the proposed ban, goes the possibility of sidewalk bicycle parking implementation by the city.
A local shopping center has no skating or bicycling signs posted, but also has bike racks on the sidewalk. The two aren't mutually exclusive.
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Old 04-09-15, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
As of recently, the city officials, along with law enforcement, were advocating a city wide ban on cyclists over the age of 12 for riding bicycles on the sidewalk, and in light of the proposed ban, goes the possibility of sidewalk bicycle parking implementation by the city.
Riding on the sidewalk is not the same as providing for bike parking on sidewalk areas.

But ultimately yet another display of automobile centric thinking.
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Old 04-09-15, 09:08 AM
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Good post on Dutch bicycle streets: https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/2...et-in-utrecht/
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Old 04-09-15, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
Try and take away one on street auto parking spot, or auto parking lot space, and the fight is on between the city and many business owners, something our city is not willing to take on at this time, leaving it up to each business's discretion (and expense) to choose whether to have bicycle parking or not.
Many businesses in the U.S. do not think that people who ride bicycles are valid customers. Their view of bicycle riders is that they are primarily MAMILs (who they would like to run over for blocking the lane and who they don't want clickety clacking through their store with BO) along with a few SS hipsters thrown in for fun. They don't see normal people riding bicycles.
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Old 04-09-15, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
Try and take away one on street auto parking spot, or auto parking lot space, and the fight is on between the city and many business owners, something our city is not willing to take on at this time, leaving it up to each business's discretion (and expense) to choose whether to have bicycle parking or not.
Lately, particularly in my neighborhood and some adjacent ones, we have been losing car parking for bike parking in front of a few new and popular places. There are new bike corrals every few months that replaced the street parking. One street in particular has added a couple, and I can think of an additional location that needs one. There are few businesses on the street, but it is a popular cycling route. The newer businesses are quite popular with people on bikes (I ride there, my sister walks) and it is near a denser residential area so most visitors live pretty close. The one place that really "needs" parking has a private lot, and the nearby streets are quiet enough that parking is readily available most times of day.
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Old 04-09-15, 10:19 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
Yup, auto centric thinking is strong in the US. The irony of course is that if more people cycled, there WOULD BE more automobile parking spaces. Sigh.
Exactly. Seattle has been providing more bike racks and more bike lanes in the city centre lately, resulting in the loss of some on-street car parking. That has sparked some outrage from the local business owners who fear it will drive customers away.
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Old 04-09-15, 10:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
They have pretty good data on the volume of cars, trucks, and bikes along various routes and good data on how road and building changes affect that. They can usually come pretty close to predicting the volumes of each on a new route be that a cycle street or something with more motor volume and segregated bikeways (cycletracks or side paths as they generally no longer install painted bike lanes). They know for instance that better facilities that feel safer and more comfortable will increase the number of people riding bicycles and decrease the number driving. They know that in a fairly dense area that a 3:1 ratio cycle street will encourage more people to ride bicycles for various trips than a 2:1 ratio.

If a proposed cycle street is predicted to have 1000 cars per day but only 1500 bikes then they will either try to reduce the number of cars or install a protected cycletrack as this ratio as-is would be inappropriate for a cycle street. A key method of reducing the number of cars is filtered permeability. At some point the street is blocked for cars but allows people walking or riding bikes to pass through. This forces drivers to stay on a main road and enter the calmed area closer to their destination. Another is the use of opposing one-ways. Here a street is one-way in one direction for about half it's length and one-way in the other direction for the other half. The purpose of both of these is to encourage drivers to stay on main routes (connector or arterial in the U.S.) for most of their journey and to not use lessor routes (residential streets, bike streets, etc.) as rat-run shortcuts. This also lessens the likelihood of conflict causing drivers to get frustrated and tailgate bicycle riders. Most people are OK driving a short distance at 11 MPH but get frustrated doing so for longer distances.

They also know that distance has an effect on how safe and comfortable people are with a given route. The longer the route the greater the ratio must be. While 2:1 (1000 bikes per day : 500 cars per day) might be fine for a 300 meter distance, they will want to see 4:1 for a 1km route.

Hope this helps?
Yeah, thanks. I need some time to absorb it all, but I think I have a good idea what you're talking about. My only question at this point is, can we apply the same principle to the various cities in the U.S.? For instance, the city I live in is quite hilly - much more so than the flat Dutch cities. Would we be able to expect a similar bike-to-car ratio here if we had the same type of road arrangement and bike infrastructure as, say, Utrecht?
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Old 04-09-15, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
Many businesses in the U.S. do not think that people who ride bicycles are valid customers. Their view of bicycle riders is that they are primarily MAMILs (who they would like to run over for blocking the lane and who they don't want clickety clacking through their store with BO) along with a few SS hipsters thrown in for fun. They don't see normal people riding bicycles.
Locally, many local business owners have given a name to a number of cyclists.... GMOBs, (grown men on bikes)....... not wearing helmets, smoking cigarettes while riding, wearing street clothes....and riding around slowly on BMXs.... and as business owners see it, in order to case out a neighborhood for soft targets to steal from.
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Old 04-10-15, 06:51 AM
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Originally Posted by daihard
Yeah, thanks. I need some time to absorb it all, but I think I have a good idea what you're talking about. My only question at this point is, can we apply the same principle to the various cities in the U.S.? For instance, the city I live in is quite hilly - much more so than the flat Dutch cities. Would we be able to expect a similar bike-to-car ratio here if we had the same type of road arrangement and bike infrastructure as, say, Utrecht?
Possibly (probably?) not. But that doesn't change the principles any. What does or does not feel safe doesn't change and it's impact on how many people ride doesn't change. Nobody is going to say that because there are hills here I will decide to feel safer on lessor facilities.

If we want as many people riding as who are willing to then we still need to design each street, roadway, and junction to Dutch standards. Or better. If the ratios don't work for a bicycle street then we likely need to either make them work or not use a bicycle street and instead install cycletracks or side paths.

Hills are not necessarily a major roadblock though. Amsterdam and northern parts of The Netherlands are flat but southern areas are quite hilly (think spring classics and Amstel Gold) and yet these still have high numbers of bicycle riders. Also, just because there's a hill a mile from me doesn't mean that I can't ride my bike to the grocery that's a fairly flat mile the other way (the vast majority of bicycling in The Netherlands is not commuting to work but going to dinner, grocery, and school).

You may have other things going for you like better weather or employers willing to pay incentives to ride so that they can reduce healthcare costs (Employers pay about $9,000 per employee per year in healthcare with an estimated $3700 of this due to chronic diseases caused by obesity and lack of activity) and the costs of providing free employee parking.

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Old 04-10-15, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by daihard
Exactly. Seattle has been providing more bike racks and more bike lanes in the city centre lately, resulting in the loss of some on-street car parking. That has sparked some outrage from the local business owners who fear it will drive customers away.
And has it? Or are bicycle riding customers now arriving?
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Old 04-10-15, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by dynodonn
Locally, many local business owners have given a name to a number of cyclists.... GMOBs, (grown men on bikes)....... not wearing helmets, smoking cigarettes while riding, wearing street clothes....and riding around slowly on BMXs.... and as business owners see it, in order to case out a neighborhood for soft targets to steal from.
Yet they don't see people cruising around in darkened window cars as also doing the same thing? Or as van drivers as being the thieves? Amazing myopic vision by those business owners.
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Old 04-10-15, 09:37 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
And has it? Or are bicycle riding customers now arriving?
A large portion of the downtown businesses are dependent on people coming in from out of town, not locals. It may have a negative effect on those not close to parking facilities.
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Old 04-11-15, 02:09 AM
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Originally Posted by kickstart
A large portion of the downtown businesses are dependent on people coming in from out of town, not locals. It may have a negative effect on those not close to parking facilities.
The Seattle Times had an article that said the commercial parking facilities in downtown Seattle are 40 percent vacant on average. If businesses want people driving in from out of town, they should provide their own parking space or expect the customers to pay the market price for those commercial lots.

The businesses I patronize in the city centre seem to have enough customers today.
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Old 04-11-15, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by daihard
I haven't verified this yet, but I remember reading an article that talked about the Dutch government changing the traffic laws to allow fast cyclists ('wielrenners') to ride in the general purpose lane so the utility cyclists ('fietsers') can ride more safely in the bike lanes.
It wouldn't surprise me.

In the bicycle paradises people keep talking about, most of the riders ride slowly.
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