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This guy gets it. Hazards of NYC bike lanes

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This guy gets it. Hazards of NYC bike lanes

Old 04-29-15, 07:22 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Gee, is the freeway system this screwed up? Or is it just for cyclists that this nightmare [hordes of policemen enforcing MBL laws on every cyclist who steps out of line] exists?
Just for cyclists prone to hyperbolic rhetoric stimulated by their own over-active, agenda driven nightmares.

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Old 04-29-15, 08:08 AM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
Yeah I've seen that video.

From NACTO: "A cycle track is an exclusive bike facility that combines the user experience of a separated path with the on-street infrastructure of a conventional bike lane. A cycle track is physically separated from motor traffic and distinct from the sidewalk. Cycle tracks have different forms but all share common elements—they provide space that is intended to be exclusively or primarily used for bicycles, and are separated from motor vehicle travel lanes, parking lanes, and sidewalks. In situations where on-street parking is allowed cycle tracks are located to the curb-side of the parking (in contrast to bike lanes)."

Any on-street facility for bikes that is not directly adjacent to a regular travel lane but has some form of separation between it and the travel lanes is, by definition, a cycle track. Mandatory bike lane laws, by their wording, do not apply to cycle tracks.
Unsurprisingly, you are wrong.

Just wondering. Have *you* ridden in Manhattan?

-mr. bill
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Old 04-29-15, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
If the results are "the same", then bike lanes don't make things safer or more convenient. If the results are "the same", then bike lanes have no purpose.

The video is making the argument that bike lanes make those complaints harder to deal with because they limit the amount of roadway available to use to maneuver around problems.
It does make it safer in other cities. One has to remember that NYC is not necessarily a template for the rest of the world.
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Old 04-29-15, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
It does make it safer in other cities. One has to remember that NYC is not necessarily a template for the rest of the world.
The person who made the video was taking about NYC.
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Old 04-29-15, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
The person who made the video was taking about NYC.
Perhaps, but don't believe the OP qualified his "This guy gets it" seal of approval and label of "segregated crap" exclusively to the NYC cycling environment.
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Old 04-29-15, 10:18 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Perhaps, but don't believe the OP qualified his "This guy gets it" seal of approval and label of "segregated crap" exclusively to the NYC cycling environment.

I very much doubt OP has ever ridden a bike here in NYC.
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Old 04-29-15, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Daniel4
It does make it safer in other cities. One has to remember that NYC is not necessarily a template for the rest of the world.
We still have to question the actual "safety" of bike lanes... there really is no definitive proof of safety... at least not for BL done in the American way. Other countries include things like special light phases, and physical separation, and even laws protecting vulnerable road users... In the US, we get lines of paint, maybe some buffer zones, a rare light phase... and you are real lucky if you get actual separation from traffic and any enforcement of laws protecting BL or cyclists. All that means that while BL may offer a sense of comfort to cyclists, they may not really offer much else... especially if other road users simply do not heed BL or know what to do around cyclists.

Some cities do a better job with BL than others... but overall the "jury" is still out on the safety of basic painted BL, at least for BL built in the usual American fashion.
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Old 04-29-15, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
... but overall the "jury" is still out on the safety of basic painted BL, at least for BL built in the usual American fashion.
Not for the OP, nor the Vehicular Cycling Poobahs and their disciples who announced the final verdict over 40 years ago, and have never deviated from it come heck or high water.
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Old 04-29-15, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Perhaps, but don't believe the OP qualified his "This guy gets it" seal of approval and label of "segregated crap" exclusively to the NYC cycling environment.
Yes.

You need to go back to what I was commenting on. If "the complaints are no different" with and without bike lanes, why have bike lanes (in NYC)?

A major point of the video was that bicycle lanes (in NYC) make dealing with "the pedestrians, the motorists, the road maintenance, etc" harder.

You don't have to agree with that point but you really have to understand that that is the point being made before criticizing the video (in a useful/meaningful way). And, it's the video Daniel4 was, it would seem, commenting on, not the OP.

Originally Posted by Daniel4
I only watched half the video. The complaints are no different than without bike lanes, so the problem isn't bike lanes. It's the pedestrians, the motorists, the road maintenance, etc.
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Not for the OP, nor the Vehicular Cycling Poobahs and their disciples who announced the final verdict over 40 years ago, and have never deviated from it come heck or high water.


If Genec (a fairly vigorous proponent of bicycle specific infrastructure) isn't convinced that bicyle lanes are safer, you can't expect the "Poobahs" to be convinced.

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Old 04-29-15, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
If Genec (a fairly vigorous proponent of bicycle specific infrastructure) isn't convinced that bicyle lanes are safer, you can't expect the "Poobahs" to be convinced.
A proponent of segregated infrastructure is not convinced that bike lanes are safer???

Unpossible!!!

The use of bike-specific signalling made that a very good facility by North American standards. The only real issue I have with it were the sections that were parking infrastructure masquerading as a bike facility. Bike facilities should never be used to promote motoring.
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Old 04-29-15, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
A major point of the video was that bicycle lanes (in NYC) make dealing with "the pedestrians, the motorists, the road maintenance, etc" harder.
Actually, the major point of the video is definitively demonstrating where to ABSOLUTELY *NEVER* mount a camera on a bicycle.

But to the minor point of the video, yeah, he's saying the bike lanes make it harder. That's simply not true, but that's what he's saying.

For example, here's the awful awful bike lane versus the open road of wonderful wonderful wonderful 9th ave beckoning on an early morning (just one truck, thats what the?):


Here's what 9th really looks like (yes, note the van parked IN the bike lane up ahead):


And btw, salmon are *everywhere* (except maybe 12th Ave/11th Ave/NY-9A) - not just in bike lanes:


-mr. bill

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Old 04-29-15, 11:29 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill

It's sad that in Europe these types of regressive laws are being overturned while in the USA they are still celebrated by some "bike advocates".
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Old 04-29-15, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
It's sad that in Europe these types of regressive laws are being overturned while in the USA they are still celebrated by some "bike advocates".
It's sad that these types of regressive laws are being overturned in so many places in the USA but some "bike advocates" still don't know that.

However, NYC is not one of those places.... But even in NYC with its regressive must use laws, you can leave the bike lanes for lots of reasons. "But officer there's a dangerous dangerous unacceptable dangerous really really really dangerous utility cover in the middle of the bike lane!" On a sunny Sunday morning that is *probably* not one of the reasons.

Luckily in Massachusetts we've never had these types of regressive laws.

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 04-29-15 at 11:48 AM.
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Old 04-29-15, 11:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Actually, the major point of the video is definitively demonstrating where to ABSOLUTELY *NEVER* mount a camera on a bicycle.
No, almost certainly, that wasn't the point. Possibly, it could be the major result.
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Old 04-29-15, 12:04 PM
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The question of "safer" and "harder" is subjective. Infrastructure benefits the average person by improving their cycling experience in challenging conditions. The issues shown in the video simply demonstrate the issues faced by the advanced enthusiast who is unwilling to adjust to their environment. Even limited access freeways have challenges, and restrictions.
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Old 04-29-15, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Yes.

You need to go back to what I was commenting on. If "the complaints are no different" with and without bike lanes, why have bike lanes (in NYC)?

A major point of the video was that bicycle lanes (in NYC) make dealing with "the pedestrians, the motorists, the road maintenance, etc" harder.

You don't have to agree with that point but you really have to understand that that is the point being made before criticizing the video (in a useful/meaningful way). And, it's the video Daniel4 was, it would seem, commenting on, not the OP.







If Genec (a fairly vigorous proponent of bicycle specific infrastructure) isn't convinced that bicyle lanes are safer, you can't expect the "Poobahs" to be convinced.
I just want to clarify something here... I am a proponent of well designed bike specific infrastructure... I too have seen stuff so bad I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy. I think that the US has lots and lots of experience designing pretty good roads and that generally speaking, cyclists have had the short shrift in things... and road engineers/traffic engineers/et. al. can do a lot better... if there is a demand for good high quality cycling infra.... but that won't happen as long as there is negativity towards bike infra... based on poor designs of the past, and there is any influential voice saying "we don't need any..."

Do also note I specifically stated "but overall the "jury" is still out on the safety of basic painted BL, at least for BL built in the usual American fashion."

Last edited by genec; 04-29-15 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 04-29-15, 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
A proponent of segregated infrastructure is not convinced that bike lanes are safer???

Unpossible!!!

The use of bike-specific signalling made that a very good facility by North American standards. The only real issue I have with it were the sections that were parking infrastructure masquerading as a bike facility. Bike facilities should never be used to promote motoring.
Amen to that... and yet right here in my city, we have bike facilities specifically built to promote safer motoring... a BL used as a buffer zone to narrow a roadway to hold speeding motorists' speeds down.

It would be one thing if there were a buffer between the BL and the road where there are speeding motorists, but no, this BL is built with a buffer near the curb, so cyclists ride further out, in an effort to get motorists to slow down... nice design eh?

Not exactly what I would call a "safe design." Yet quite par for the course in the US of A.
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Old 04-29-15, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
We still have to question the actual "safety" of bike lanes... there really is no definitive proof of safety... at least not for BL done in the American way. Other countries include things like special light phases, and physical separation, and even laws protecting vulnerable road users... In the US, we get lines of paint, maybe some buffer zones, a rare light phase... and you are real lucky if you get actual separation from traffic and any enforcement of laws protecting BL or cyclists. All that means that while BL may offer a sense of comfort to cyclists, they may not really offer much else... especially if other road users simply do not heed BL or know what to do around cyclists.

Some cities do a better job with BL than others... but overall the "jury" is still out on the safety of basic painted BL, at least for BL built in the usual American fashion.
Where did I just read it? Was it here? Anyway, what I read is that bike collisions have gone down markedly since the introduction of bike lanes, and this is during a period of big increase of cycling. Now, you could argue that it had nothing to do with the new facilities, and that might be a reasonable argument, but I could not claim that the lanes make things worse. That's just my own opinion.

I looked up NY State law. In section § 1234, it says you must use a bike lane where you can, but you don't have to use one where you can't use one. This isn't the worst law, but it's also not the best. To me, it leaves me with at least a little leeway to judge that a lane doesn't suit my purposes and that therefore, I shall not use it. Again, as I said, in practice, it doesn't matter, because law enforcement rarely enforces the must-use law.
§ 1234. Riding on roadways, shoulders, bicycle or in-line skate lanes and bicycle or in-line skate paths. (a) Upon all roadways, any bicycle or in-line skate shall be driven either on a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane or, if a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane has not been provided, near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway or upon a usable right-hand shoulder in such a manner as to prevent undue interference with the flow of traffic except when preparing for a left turn or when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions that would make it unsafe to continue along near the right-hand curb or edge. Conditions to be taken into consideration include, but are not limited to, fixed or moving objects, vehicles, bicycles, in-line skates, pedestrians, animals, surface hazards or traffic lanes too narrow for a bicycle or person on in-line skates and a vehicle to travel safely side-by-side within the lane.
(b) Persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates upon a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast. Persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates upon a shoulder, bicycle or in-line skate lane, or bicycle or in-line skates path, intended for the use of bicycles or in-line skates may ride two or more abreast if sufficient space is available, except that when passing a vehicle, bicycle or person on in-line skates, or pedestrian, standing or proceeding along such shoulder, lane or path, persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates shall ride, skate, or glide single file. Persons riding bicycles or skating or gliding on in-line skates upon a roadway shall ride, skate, or glide single file when being overtaken by a vehicle.
(c) Any person operating a bicycle or skating or gliding on in-line skates who is entering the roadway from a private road, driveway, alley or over a curb shall come to a full stop before entering the roadway.
And "cycle track" isn't a term used anywhere in NY State law. The word "track" isn't even used in the context of bicycles.
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Old 04-29-15, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
And "cycle track" isn't a term used anywhere in NY State law. The word "track" isn't even used in the context of bicycles.
Look in § 102 for the definition of Bicycle, Bicycle Lane and Bicycle Path.

Then look up NYC Traffic Rules §4-01(a), §4-01(b) & 4-12(p)(1).

§4-01(a) Vehicle and Traffic Law definitions apply. Whenever any words and phrases used in these
rules are not defined herein but are defined in Article 1 of the New York State Vehicle and Traffic
Law, any such definition shall be deemed to apply to such words and phrases used herein.

§4-01(b) Definitions. The following words and phrases, when used in these rules, shall, for the purpose of
these rules, have the meanings respectively ascribed to them as follows:
Bicycle. A "bicycle" shall mean every two- or three-wheeled device upon which a person or
persons may ride, propelled by human power through a belt, a chain or gears, with such wheels
in a tandem or tricycle, except that it shall not include such a device having solid tires and
intended for use only on a sidewalk by pre-teenage children.

4-12(p)(1) Bicycle riders to use bicycle lanes. Whenever a usable path or lane for bicycles has been
provided, bicycle riders shall use such path or lane only except under any of the following
situations:
(i) When preparing for a turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
(ii) When reasonably necessary to avoid conditions (including but not limited to, fixed or
moving objects, motor vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, pushcarts, animals, surface hazards)
that make it unsafe to continue within such bicycle path or lane.

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Old 04-29-15, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
you can leave the bike lanes for lots of reasons
At the risk of a citation and/or time wasted in traffic court. Woohoo!

It's sad that these types of regressive laws are being overturned in so many places in the USA but some "bike advocates" still don't know that.
Link please.
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Old 04-29-15, 01:18 PM
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ugh I hate state laws that say "bicyclists have the same rights and duties as the drivers of motor vehicles" and then go right on to list various statutes that take away some of those rights. NY is one of only 3 states that also have a mandatory shoulder use law in addition to the mandatory bike lane law.

"Here you go little cyclists, you have the same rights as motorists, but you really don't. Here's a nice [probably full of debris] shoulder for you to cycle on where you'll be safer from all the dangerous cars".

What a bunch of bull.
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Old 04-29-15, 01:26 PM
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Yet oddly, with our worse-looking laws, conditions seem better in NY than they are in NJ. Much better to my eyes. I lived in NJ from 1987 through 2013. NJ has some good new laws but a lot of catching up to do in facilities.

When a shoulder is full of debris, I'll consider it impassable, so I won't use it. The law seems to allow me to make that judgment call.
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Old 04-29-15, 01:38 PM
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
Link please.
Link.

CO mandatory use repealed
CT mandatory use only with limited access highways/parkways
GA enabling but not operative
IA state preemption of local mandatory use by decision
NM mandatory use repealed
NY exceptions added
OK mandatory use repealed (except for state parks with side paths)
PA mandatory use repealed
VT mandatory use repealed
WY mandatory use repealed

There are only a few states left with mandatory use laws. Yours is one of them. Get advocating!

Though it wouldn't be my highest priority if I were you.
(Technically you have must use. No public hearings have been held to enable the law as far as I know.)

-mr. bill

Last edited by mr_bill; 04-29-15 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 04-29-15, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_bill
Link.

CO mandatory use repealed
CT mandatory use only with limited access highways/parkways
GA enabling but not operative
IA state preemption of local mandatory use by decision
NM mandatory use repealed
NY exceptions added
OK mandatory use repealed (except for state parks with side paths)
PA mandatory use repealed
VT mandatory use repealed
WY mandatory use repealed

There are only a few states left with mandatory use laws. Yours is one of them. Get advocating!

Though it wouldn't be my highest priority if I were you.
(Technically you have must use. No public hearings have been held to enable the law as far as I know.)

-mr. bill
Thanks...that was a genuine request!

City bike plans and city council meetings qualify as "public hearings" in OR.
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Old 04-29-15, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by noglider
Yet oddly, with our worse-looking laws, conditions seem better in NY than they are in NJ. Much better to my eyes. I lived in NJ from 1987 through 2013. NJ has some good new laws but a lot of catching up to do in facilities.

When a shoulder is full of debris, I'll consider it impassable, so I won't use it. The law seems to allow me to make that judgment call.
The thing I don't really like about the NY law is this:
Upon all roadways, any bicycle or in-line skate shall be driven either on a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane or, if a usable bicycle or in-line skate lane has not been provided, near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway or upon a usable right-hand shoulder...
There is nothing in that statement that says "practicable." It says "near the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway." That means you are supposed to hug the curb... or at least that is how it can be interpreted.

I did like this:

in such a manner as to prevent undue interference with the flow of traffic except when preparing for a left turn or when reasonably necessary to avoid conditions...
First in bold, it gives priority to cyclists over the flow of other traffic when cyclists are to make a left turn... thus the law recognizes that there are times when cyclists may delay others.

And of course there is the usual "exception clause," regarding the use of BL in the first place... however, like all other "exception clauses" it is up to the cyclist to determine that which others may not anticipate as being "a condition." That is where court cases will come in... that is where your "judgement call" goes up against the judge and others that are strictly motorists... OUCH.
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