Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Advocacy & Safety Cyclists should expect and demand safe accommodation on every public road, just as do all other users. Discuss your bicycle advocacy and safety concerns here.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-09-15, 06:20 AM   #26
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,868
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
You have the earbuds in, you're out-to-lunch. That person who you come up behind and is oblivious to your repeated calls of "on your LEFT!", that becomes you. It simply isn't courteous and by making you oblivious makes you less safe. I'd also add that in order for earbuds to drowned out ambient noise you have to crank the volume so high that people can hear your muzak 20+ft away...and in doing so are doing hearing damage to your one and only pair of ears you ever get.
Your strawman argument about cranking the volume that high is irrelevant; the OP did not propose doing that.
Your argument is similar to stating that everyone who rides a bike "is out to lunch" because some cyclists crank their speed up so high that they are a danger to themselves and others in their vicinity especially on MUPs.

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 05-09-15 at 06:24 AM.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 06:28 AM   #27
Marcus_Ti 
Furry Cruise Missile
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2
Posts: 2,374
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 574 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Your strawman argument about cranking the volume that high is irrelevant; the OP did not propose doing that.
Your argument is similar to stating that everyone who rides a bike "is out to lunch" because some cyclists crank their speed up so high that they are a danger to themselves and others in their vicinity especially on MUPs.
He didn't "propose" doing that...but that is what every single person I ever hear using earbuds out doors does when riding or walking in an urban or road setting. Whether they mean to or not. Everyone cranks them loud enough to be heard by people 20+ft away, otherwise urban settings are loud enough you cannot hear the earbuds. They're out to lunch. Every single time. MUT or out on the road, the earbud wearers I see daily are always surprised when someone comes up behind them and wants to pass... The funny part is when they write in to the local newspaper to complain about how no one says "on your left" anymore, when the simple fact is thanks to earbuds no one can hear you shouting anymore. About the only thing that gets through to the earbud crowd is a campy hub freewheeling.


You call it a strawman, fine. I call it my experience commuting and riding every single road ride. If you're the one and only person who uses the damn things and can hear someone on your tail wanting to pass you, then congratulations on being unique.
Marcus_Ti is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 06:31 AM   #28
CrankyOne
Senior Member
 
CrankyOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 2,244
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
It fascinates me how BF posters throw around "safety" statements about how this or that activity has "greater" risk than another activity without referencing any credible source.
Agree. And disagree. These are discussion posts not academic papers. Footnoting every comment with sources would require five to twenty times as long. I've posted numerous sources before and can do so again. If there is something you want sourced just ask politely and respectfully.
CrankyOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 06:40 AM   #29
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,868
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
Agree. And disagree. These are discussion posts not academic papers. Footnoting every comment with sources would require five to twenty times as long. I've posted numerous sources before and can do so again. If there is something you want sourced just ask politely and respectfully.
Could you please provide a source for your statement that people who wear buds may have a greater chance of crashing in the first place because of the buds?

I assume that you did not use the word "may" as a weasel word that means anything is possible.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 06:58 AM   #30
CrankyOne
Senior Member
 
CrankyOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 2,244
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Could you please provide a source for your statement that people who wear buds may have a greater chance of crashing in the first place because of the buds?

I assume that you did not use the word "may" as a weasel word that means anything is possible.
Sure, let's start with this Sights unseen
CrankyOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 07:10 AM   #31
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,868
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
Sure, let's start with this Sights unseen
Yes, people should pay attention to what they are doing, a nice all-purpose safety slogan.
Didn't see anything about bicycling accidents and an association with headphones, ear buds, or listening to road noise, music, podcasts, or audiobooks.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 07:26 AM   #32
CrankyOne
Senior Member
 
CrankyOne's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Bikes:
Posts: 2,244
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 243 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Yes, people should pay attention to what they are doing, a nice all-purpose safety slogan.
Didn't see anything about bicycling accidents and an association with headphones, ear buds, or listening to road noise, music, podcasts, or audiobooks.
We know what you didn't see in the article. What did you see?
CrankyOne is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 08:03 AM   #33
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,868
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
We know what you didn't see in the article. What did you see?
I already posted a bottom line synopsis of the conclusion of the research:
People should pay attention to what they are doing, a nice all-purpose safety slogan.

But as also already posted, nothing in the research to indicate that passive headphone use while cycling has any impact on the attention levels of bicyclists or their cycling risk.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 09:53 AM   #34
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by raymond1354 View Post
I believe that there is some scientific evidence that wearing earphones increases risks for both cyclists and pedestrians who are using them.

r
I believe that there is some scientific evidence that reality is a hologram.
Cite please.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 09:55 AM   #35
kickstart
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 5,445
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 376 Post(s)
I don't have any "research", or "evidence", but I can say for sure from a lifetime of experience that that I feel safer on a bicycle or motorcycle than in a car specifically because I'm more aware of my environment, as I'm immersed in it rather than insulated from it, and hearing is a part of that.
On the same token, I have encountered joggers and cyclists who are not aware of their environment, and are nearly impossible to communicate to, which is an issue if they are blocking the way, stop, or flip a U-turn.

I agree about the usual suspects spouting their hysterical nonsense, but its not a consideration that is black and white. Some people don't like the the distraction, and others don't use them safely or responsibly.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 09:56 AM   #36
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
I don't see it as heated at all.

You have the earbuds in, you're out-to-lunch. That person who you come up behind and is oblivious to your repeated calls of "on your LEFT!", that becomes you. It simply isn't courteous and by making you oblivious makes you less safe. I'd also add that in order for earbuds to drowned out ambient noise you have to crank the volume so high that people can hear your muzak 20+ft away...and in doing so are doing hearing damage to your one and only pair of ears you ever get.

: Get off my lawn, you punk!
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 09:58 AM   #37
Marcus_Ti 
Furry Cruise Missile
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2
Posts: 2,374
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 574 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by spare_wheel View Post
: Get off my lawn, you punk!
WHAT!!!??? DiD SOMEONE SAY SOMETHING??
Marcus_Ti is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 09:59 AM   #38
spare_wheel
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Bikes: NA
Posts: 4,281
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrankyOne View Post
What did you see?
I saw someone using an unrelated web post to justify their unsupported claim of risk.
spare_wheel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 10:52 AM   #39
The Pusher Man
Member
 
The Pusher Man's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Bikes:
Posts: 46
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Biking is 99% visual and 1% audible. If you want to increase your situational awareness put mirrors on your bike.
The Pusher Man is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 11:49 AM   #40
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,333
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2067 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
I already posted a bottom line synopsis of the conclusion of the research:
People should pay attention to what they are doing, a nice all-purpose safety slogan.

But as also already posted, nothing in the research to indicate that passive headphone use while cycling has any impact on the attention levels of bicyclists or their cycling risk.
Probably because NO ONE is doing such research. It isn't a pressing problem, no one* really cares about cyclists in general... and no statistical database is going to reflect injuries by cyclists roughly attributable to headphone use.

So there is no funding for any such research, and there is no one to gather the data that you insist upon.

We do know however that distraction from any activity can lead to poor performance in that activity... so if you are listening to music via headphones so you can be distracted... well your performance can be reduced.

But go on and continue to deny the obvious... it is what you are best at.

Have a nice day.



*no one except cyclists themselves... otherwise, no public agency, police or insurance department really gives a hoot... and some of these groups would wish cyclists just went away.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 12:12 PM   #41
howsteepisit
Senior Member
 
howsteepisit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Eugene, OR
Bikes: Mecian
Posts: 4,362
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 497 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Probably because NO ONE is doing such research. It isn't a pressing problem, no one* really cares about cyclists in general... and no statistical database is going to reflect injuries by cyclists roughly attributable to headphone use.

So there is no funding for any such research, and there is no one to gather the data that you insist upon.

We do know however that distraction from any activity can lead to poor performance in that activity... so if you are listening to music via headphones so you can be distracted... well your performance can be reduced.

But go on and continue to deny the obvious... it is what you are best at.

Have a nice day



*no one except cyclists themselves... otherwise, no public agency, police or insurance department really gives a hoot... and some of these groups would wish cyclists just went away.

If it were the case that nobody cares about cyclist safety can you explain the interest and research on helmets and bike lanes?
howsteepisit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 01:16 PM   #42
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,868
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
Probably because NO ONE is doing such research. It isn't a pressing problem, no one* really cares about cyclists in general... and no statistical database is going to reflect injuries by cyclists roughly attributable to headphone use.

So there is no funding for any such research, and there is no one to gather the data that you insist upon.

We do know however that distraction from any activity can lead to poor performance in that activity... so if you are listening to music via headphones so you can be distracted... well your performance can be reduced.

But go on and continue to deny the obvious... it is what you are best at.

Have a nice day.



*no one except cyclists themselves... otherwise, no public agency, police or insurance department really gives a hoot... and some of these groups would wish cyclists just went away.
Same old, same old A&S BSing about bicycling safety and comparative risk; no data, no stats, no facts of any kind therefore anything stated is just as true or false as anything else; except for what you want to believe, which just must be true!

Any distraction can lead to poor performance? What a mealy mouth pile of vague nothingness! Of course "distraction" can be anything you want to claim is a distraction to include scratching an itch; "can lead to" or doesn't lead to, take your pick, eh? "Poor performance" as measured by what metric?

Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 05-09-15 at 01:23 PM.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 01:32 PM   #43
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,333
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2067 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by howsteepisit View Post
If it were the case that nobody cares about cyclist safety can you explain the interest and research on helmets and bike lanes?
Uh, did you notice this little tidbit in my message:
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec
*no one except cyclists themselves..
Any other interest is due to business people thinking they can make money... hence the reason that styrofoam hats, made with less material than a $15 ice cooler, sell for upwards of $100... even $200.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 01:38 PM   #44
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,333
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2067 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Same old, same old A&S BSing about bicycling safety and comparative risk; no data, no stats, no facts of any kind therefore anything stated is just as true or false as anything else; except for what you want to believe, which just must be true!

Any distraction can lead to poor performance? What a mealy mouth pile of vague nothingness! Of course "distraction" can be anything you want to claim is a distraction to include scratching an itch; "can lead to" or doesn't lead to, take your pick, eh? "Poor performance" as measured by what metric?
Yup, sad but true... even that good looking girl on the corner...

But you want hard and fast statistics... which others of course will deny and say there is no correlation... so there really is no point in all of this.

As far as metrics... try any activity with and without distractions (including scratching an itch) and see how you fare before and after.

Oh and BTW... if you can come into any thread and be the curmudgeon, and deny anything... I can point out the obvious truths and state that they are true.
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 01:40 PM   #45
BobbyG
Senior Member
 
BobbyG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Colorado Springs, CO
Bikes: 2015 Charge Plug, 1997 Nishiki Blazer, 1984 Nishiki International
Posts: 2,490
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 269 Post(s)
The headphone/earbud, music/podcast thing has been mentioned many times before, but I want to reiterate what I do since it has enriched my riding and my life, and perhaps others will benefit from it. Based on personal experience and what I read on this site a few years ago, I began wearing one earbud, curbside and I limit the audio to spoken word podcasts at a reasonable volume. I find I can still hear and locate vehicles around me (and I wear a take-a-look, glasses mounted mirror). However, if the podcast begins playing music, I find I loose the ability to locate taffic. I think this is due to how the human brain works. I hypothosize that human speech is recognized as being separate from the environment, and processed in a separate part than interpreting more abstract sounds. This would have come in handy in hunting societies, where coordination between the hunters is necessary while still being able to discern animal and nature sounds for a sucessful hunt. My unfounded hypothesis aside, I find keeping my mind occupied and entertained with spoken-word podcasts helps keep my mind off any physical discomfort (up to a point). Also, by listening to educational and semi-educational podcasts, I learn something new everyday. Conversational podcasts like interviews work best for me. Audio books seem to demand too much attention and become frustrating. For fun I like the Nerdist Podcast, the WTF Podcast and Gilbert Gottfried's Amazing Colossal Podcast (He has a co-host, and if you can put up with GG's annoying personality he has some remarkable guests). For more educational entertainment I listen to 99 Percent Invisible, Freakonomics, NPR (but nothing political from them) the Infinite Monkey Cage, and the BBC Program podcasts (once again nothing political).

I also use a monophnic earbud with a microphone on the cord which I tuck under my helmet's chinstrap. I set the phone to auto-answer so if the wife calls, or somebody else, I can answer without stopping.

With one earbud curbside, spoken word only, I can still hear traffic, birds, streams, squeaks, rattles and more!
BobbyG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 01:52 PM   #46
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,868
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by genec View Post
As far as metrics... try any activity with and without distractions (including scratching an itch) and see how you fare before and after.

Oh and BTW... if you can come into any thread and be the curmudgeon, and deny anything... I can point out the obvious truths and state that they are true.
Really? Ya mean the "obvious truth" that is true is that cyclists who scratch itches have more accidents or suffer more severe injuries than those that don't scratch? No, then what do you mean by "how you fare"? Is that related to the trope about cyclists faring best who..."?

That isn't what you mean? Maybe you mean what ever you claim to be "the obvious truth" is true because you think so and say so. End of story.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 02:02 PM   #47
Matariki
Not quite there yet
 
Matariki's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Monkey Bottom, NC
Bikes: A bunch of old steel bikes + an ICE trike
Posts: 1,001
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikemig View Post
I wouldn't wear headphones for two reasons. First, I want to be able to hear cars coming up behind me. Second, as much as I love music, I like listening to what is going on around me when I am outside.
These are pretty much my reasons as well. They can cause a bit of a sensory detachment from your primary activity affecting your situational awareness. To those who say this this is bunk, then why do lawyers frequently ask defendant drivers in collision cases if their radio was on?

When I want music when I am cycling, I sing.

Last edited by Matariki; 05-09-15 at 02:28 PM.
Matariki is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 02:09 PM   #48
I-Like-To-Bike
Been Around Awhile
 
I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Posts: 24,868
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Matariki View Post
When I want music when I am cycling, I sing.
According to Genec, that is just another distracting activity than can lead to poor performance! Whatever than means.
I-Like-To-Bike is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 02:53 PM   #49
kickstart
Senior Member
 
kickstart's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Posts: 5,445
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 376 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Same old, same old A&S BSing about bicycling safety and comparative risk; no data, no stats, no facts of any kind therefore anything stated is just as true or false as anything else; except for what you want to believe, which just must be true!

Any distraction can lead to poor performance? What a mealy mouth pile of vague nothingness! Of course "distraction" can be anything you want to claim is a distraction to include scratching an itch; "can lead to" or doesn't lead to, take your pick, eh? "Poor performance" as measured by what metric?
I'm not disputing your point as I do agree, but have you never encountered someone jogging, walking a dog, cycling, ect. on a MUT or other situation where they weren't paying attention to their surroundings, and you were unable to communicate your presence to them?

I can't imagine anyone who has never encountered a person distracted or unaware of their surroundings because of headphones, or can't recognize that it could be problematic for some people under some circumstances.

No, not immediate danger, but something to be aware of so it doesn't become dangerous. For those of us willing to admit our limitations, that means not doing it.
kickstart is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-15, 03:07 PM   #50
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Posts: 25,333
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2067 Post(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike View Post
Really? Ya mean the "obvious truth" that is true is that cyclists who scratch itches have more accidents or suffer more severe injuries than those that don't scratch? No, then what do you mean by "how you fare"? Is that related to the trope about cyclists faring best who..."?

That isn't what you mean? Maybe you mean what ever you claim to be "the obvious truth" is true because you think so and say so. End of story.
hooo boy...

I suppose you want to know the meaning of "IS" also....
genec is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:35 PM.


 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION