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Old 05-09-15, 03:11 PM   #51
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I'm not disputing your point as I do agree, but have you never encountered someone jogging, walking a dog, cycling, ect. on a MUT or other situation where they weren't paying attention to their surroundings, and you were unable to communicate your presence to them?

I can't imagine anyone who has never encountered a person distracted or unaware of their surroundings because of headphones, or can't recognize that it could be problematic for some people under some circumstances.

No, not immediate danger, but something to be aware of so it doesn't become dangerous. For those of us willing to admit our limitations, that means not doing it.
Amazing... on one hand you are "not disputing the point," while at the same time you acknowledging the point... "I can't imagine anyone who has never encountered a person distracted or unaware of their surroundings because of headphones..."

Gee, so it must be true, eh?
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Old 05-09-15, 03:16 PM   #52
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Oh BTW as far as the actual undocumented un-statistical real life danger of wearing headphones while cycling... meh... depends on the rider, the conditions, and what is being listened to... This is as subjective as wearing a helmet. Use your own judgement as to the situation... after all... WHO KNOWS...
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Old 05-09-15, 05:34 PM   #53
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Amazing... on one hand you are "not disputing the point," while at the same time you acknowledging the point... "I can't imagine anyone who has never encountered a person distracted or unaware of their surroundings because of headphones..."

Gee, so it must be true, eh?
Well, not being black or white.......it must be gray, right?

Essentially both points have a foundation in truth. Wearing earphones isn't a clear and present danger in of itself, but its also not entirely free of possibly negative effects. Like lights, infrastructure, or helmets as you mentioned, there's no quantifiable guarantees, or absolute truths.

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Old 05-09-15, 05:39 PM   #54
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I'm not disputing your point as I do agree, but have you never encountered someone jogging, walking a dog, cycling, ect. on a MUT or other situation where they weren't paying attention to their surroundings, and you were unable to communicate your presence to them?
Of course some people are not paying 100% attention to their surroundings, some might be wearing headphones and some not; some might be scratching an itch or something else "distracting". Of course it does not mean bicyclists are totally unaware of what they are doing just because they are not paying attention to other bicyclists who want to "communicate" with them.

In fact, assuming that a bicyclist is riding in a safe manner how important is it to hear what other cyclists wish to "communicate"?
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Old 05-09-15, 05:41 PM   #55
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It's worth noting (forgive me if someone has already said this) that, at least in some places, it's illegal to wear earbuds in both ears while operating a vehicle. I see a lot of cyclists completely flout that law here in California. It's definitely a good idea to keep one ear open to other people trying to signal to you. I adore listening to music but don't like the one-ear option (I find it confusing to listen to two sets of sounds), so I don't use earbuds on the bike. And people who just blast the music from small bike-mounted speakers are annoying.
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Old 05-09-15, 06:28 PM   #56
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Of course some people are not paying 100% attention to their surroundings, some might be wearing headphones and some not; some might be scratching an itch or something else "distracting". Of course it does not mean bicyclists are totally unaware of what they are doing just because they are not paying attention to other bicyclists who want to "communicate" with them.

In fact, assuming that a bicyclist is riding in a safe manner how important is it to hear what other cyclists wish to "communicate"?
Even those doing their best to ride in a safe manner will not have 100% awareness at all times. Ringing a bell, and repeatedly saying Hello to communicate ones presence to pass, and them not being able to hear it in one of those lapses is a consideration to those who want to pass in a safe and responsible manner.
When they finally become cognizant of anothers presence with a start, and awkward, loud apology, they to usually realize why its important........at least for a moment........and sticks for some of us who recognize we're fallible.

Just because using headphones doesn't guarantee one will spontaneously combust, doesn't mean they will never degrade ones situational awareness.
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Old 05-09-15, 09:55 PM   #57
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Even those doing their best to ride in a safe manner will not have 100% awareness at all times. Ringing a bell, and repeatedly saying Hello to communicate ones presence to pass, and them not being able to hear it in one of those lapses is a consideration to those who want to pass in a safe and responsible manner.
When they finally become cognizant of anothers presence with a start, and awkward, loud apology, they to usually realize why its important........at least for a moment........and sticks for some of us who recognize we're fallible.

Just because using headphones doesn't guarantee one will spontaneously combust, doesn't mean they will never degrade ones situational awareness.
Well stated!
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Old 05-09-15, 10:23 PM   #58
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Even those doing their best to ride in a safe manner will not have 100% awareness at all times. Ringing a bell, and repeatedly saying Hello to communicate ones presence to pass, and them not being able to hear it in one of those lapses is a consideration to those who want to pass in a safe and responsible manner.
Cyclists who want to pass in a safe and responsible manner can do so without "communicating" a darn thing to cyclists riding (or pedestrians walking) in a safe manner in front of them. Give them enough room and do so; there should be no reason for a cyclist riding properly to have to respond to a cyclist who likes to "communicate" before passing everybody. And if there isn't enough room to pass properly located cyclists (or walkers/joggers/pedestrians) safely without "communicating" that they should move over and get outta the way! (whether expressed politely or not) then don't pass or find a wider road to ride.

Do you try to "communicate" with every motor vehicle that you pass while driving?
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Old 05-09-15, 10:50 PM   #59
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Do you try to "communicate" with every motor vehicle that you pass while driving?
Absolutely, by using turn signals as all vehicles except some bicycles have several rear view mirrors. MUTs and trails are different, being more spatially restricted, and less formal in comportment, I use audible signals.

Here in Washington state, using turn signals on the road, and bell or voice on MUTs, and trails are required by law when passing.
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Old 05-10-15, 12:23 AM   #60
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Absolutely, by using turn signals as all vehicles except some bicycles have several rear view mirrors. MUTs and trails are different, being more spatially restricted, and less formal in comportment, I use audible signals.

Here in Washington state, using turn signals on the road, and bell or voice on MUTs, and trails are required by law when passing.
What are the vehicles about to be passed supposed to do in response to your turn signals, if they should bother to pay attention to signals from vehicles that are behind them? I presume the exact same thing as if you never made the attempt at "communicating."
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Old 05-10-15, 06:39 AM   #61
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Cyclists who want to pass in a safe and responsible manner can do so without "communicating" a darn thing to cyclists riding (or pedestrians walking) in a safe manner in front of them. Give them enough room and do so; there should be no reason for a cyclist riding properly to have to respond to a cyclist who likes to "communicate" before passing everybody. And if there isn't enough room to pass properly located cyclists (or walkers/joggers/pedestrians) safely without "communicating" that they should move over and get outta the way! (whether expressed politely or not) then don't pass or find a wider road to ride.

Do you try to "communicate" with every motor vehicle that you pass while driving?
What if you are on a bike path... and the peds are walking 4 abreast with headphones on... or even without headphones on. A bit of communication can make the difference.

Your "find a wider road to ride" is akin to motorists telling us to not ride on the road. We can all share if we just make a bit of room for one another and don't treat what ever facility we are using as an "I own this" affair. That means you have to be conscious and aware of others.
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Old 05-10-15, 06:57 AM   #62
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Quite frankly I dont understand people that think they should wear earphones while cycling. First of all it is not safe if you cant hear what is going on around you. Second one the great things about cycling is to be able to see, hear, and smell all of your surrounding.

I might add that sight and sound is necessary for situational awareness. REMEMBER there are hundreds of incidents of cyclist being hit from behind, and it ends up that the driver is not charged, or at most just gets a slap on the wrist. Until laws are changed or prosecutors actually do their job, the sad fact is cyclist have to be super alert to their surroundings, and need to take action for their own safety.

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Old 05-10-15, 07:17 AM   #63
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What if you are on a bike path... and the peds are walking 4 abreast with headphones on... or even without headphones on. A bit of communication can make the difference.
Do the same thing you would do if any other obstacle is in your way, go around it or communicate if you think it will do any good.

BTW, what does rude people blocking a bike path have to do with a bicyclist using headphones?
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Old 05-10-15, 07:22 AM   #64
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Quite frankly I dont understand people that think they should wear earphones while cycling. First of all it is not safe if you cant hear what is going on around you. Second one the great things about cycling is to be able to see, hear, and smell all of your surrounding.
Smell your surroundings? Ha, Ha, that is even better than the need to hear "communication" from strangers.

I will grant you one place I have ridden where that was a great benefit, ridding through hyacinth fields in Holland.
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Old 05-10-15, 07:25 AM   #65
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Smell your surroundings? Ha, Ha, that is even better than the need to hear "communication" from strangers.

I will grant you one place I have ridden where that was a great benefit, ridding through hyacinth fields in Holland.
65 posts on this thread (counting this one) and 15 of them are from I like to bike all repeating variations on the same theme. How cool is that?

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Old 05-10-15, 08:36 AM   #66
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65 posts on this thread (counting this one) and 15 of them are from I like to bike all repeating variations on the same theme. How cool is that?
It means at least 15 posts have something rational to "communicate" vis--vis the same old bicycling correctness, alleged safety drivel and emotional know-nothing ranting that passes so often on this list for bicycling safety and/or advocacy advice, opinion or "obvious truth".

Read it and learn something.
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Old 05-10-15, 08:45 AM   #67
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Just curious...why on earth is hearing cars important? I personally can't think of any scenario where hearing a car could possibly impact my safety while riding.
Personally, there has many times that being able to hear a car or truck has been beneficial, usually with motorists that are approaching from behind me, and have equipped their vehicles with loud exhausts. I can generally detect the individual's mood by the tone of their vehicle's exhaust note.
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Old 05-10-15, 09:09 AM   #68
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I believe that there is some scientific evidence that wearing earphones increases risks for both cyclists and pedestrians who are using them.
my statement

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I believe that there is some scientific evidence that reality is a hologram.
Cite please.

For Pedestrians:

Lichenstein R, Smith D, Ambrose J, Moody L. "Headphone use and pedestrian injury and death in the United States: 2004-2011." Injury Prevention. Published online January 17, 2012. doi10.1136/injuryprev-2011-040161.




For Cyclists

The use and risk of portable electronic devices while cycling among different age groups C. Goldenbeld a, ⁎, M. Houtenbos a , E. Ehlers b , D. De Waard c
Journal of Safety Research, 11 January 2012



There are also numerous news articles where the wearing of earphones has been implicated in cyclist injury or death. They are, however, just news reports. I also found that this link: Sights unseen from elsewhere in this thread to be interesting and relevant.

I hope this helps.

r









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Old 05-10-15, 09:54 AM   #69
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As much as I enjoy music while I ride, my wife has convinced me that its safer without the Beach Boys, The Rolling Stones and my other favorites. I guess the primary logic for her position has to do with being completely attentive at all times we're on two wheels, in traffic and on trails. Since I can't think of good reasons to disagree, I leave the music at home.

For those who insist on riding with music, there are head sets that contact the bones behind the ears rather than going into the ears. The bone contact devices may be safer because they don't block sounds from our surroundings like car engines, the sound of cars braking, other bikers announcing their intent to pass, etc.
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Old 05-10-15, 11:07 AM   #70
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Do the same thing you would do if any other obstacle is in your way, go around it or communicate if you think it will do any good.

BTW, what does rude people blocking a bike path have to do with a bicyclist using headphones?
Roads and laws allow vehicles to make safe passes without active participation of the one being overtaken. Passing a cyclist on the road can indeed be safely done without their knowledge as with any other type of vehicle, but that doesn't quantify what works for all situations. MUTs and bike facilities are often limited in space, placing users in very close proximity to each other, requiring a cooperative effort from all users. That cooperation can't be achieved with those who block the primary means of awareness and communication for those conditions.

Blanket statements like saying "safe" use of headphones will never have a negative impact, is like saying "safe" dogmatic lane taking will never have a negative impact. They're both acts justified by deferring responsibility onto others.
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Old 05-10-15, 11:09 AM   #71
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65 posts on this thread (counting this one) and 15 of them are from I like to bike all repeating variations on the same theme. How cool is that?
Too bad that "same theme" seems to always be "safety nannies must provide statistics."
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Old 05-10-15, 01:15 PM   #72
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Too bad that "same theme" seems to always be "safety nannies must provide statistics."
Whatz "too bad" about reminding you that your (and other A&S safety nannys) repetitious rants about bicycling risk, based on unsubstantiated "obvious truths", are nothing but unsubstantiated guesswork (at best), and remain so no matter how much you believe these "obvious truths" and/or how many times you repost/repeat them without any credible support.
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Old 05-10-15, 01:23 PM   #73
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MUTs and bike facilities are often limited in space, placing users in very close proximity to each other, requiring a cooperative effort from all users. That cooperation can't be achieved with those who block the primary means of awareness and communication for those conditions.

Blanket statements like saying "safe" use of headphones will never have a negative impact, is like saying "safe" dogmatic lane taking will never have a negative impact. They're both acts justified by deferring responsibility onto others.
What exactly do you expect a headphone wearing cyclist who is riding to the right on an MUT or bike facility to do after being "communicated to" by a speedier cyclist approaching from behind? What additional responsibility would you like to assign to that already "safe cyclist"?
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Old 05-10-15, 02:38 PM   #74
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Whatz "too bad" about reminding you that your (and other A&S safety nannys) repetitious rants about bicycling risk, based on unsubstantiated "obvious truths", are nothing but unsubstantiated guesswork (at best), and remain so no matter how much you believe these "obvious truths" and/or how many times you repost/repeat them without any credible support.
I suppose we should just not bother responding to the questions asked over and over again on the safety forum... after all, apparently without "credible support" such things just don't matter and those newbies should just find out for themselves.

BTW it appears that there is at least some form of credible support regarding the potential risk of portable electronic devices while cycling...
The use and risk of portable electronic devices while cycling among different age groups C. Goldenbeld a, ⁎, M. Houtenbos a , E. Ehlers b , D. De Waard c
Journal of Safety Research, 11 January 2012

But hey, perhaps you should investigate it and then deny their statistical methods or something.
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Old 05-10-15, 02:54 PM   #75
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What exactly do you expect a headphone wearing cyclist who is riding to the right on an MUT or bike facility to do after being "communicated to" by a speedier cyclist approaching from behind? What additional responsibility would you like to assign to that already "safe cyclist"?
I would expect him to stay right, but if he doesn't hear me because of the headphones he could meander left instead of right to avoid a rock, glass, pothole, because he doesn't know/isn't aware that I am passing... What are the chances? I don't know, but the chance is certainly there...
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