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  1. #251
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    I hate just having to walk and chew gum at the same time...I get soooo confused!
    Look I know you are trying to give me a hard time, but its one of those cases where you have to be there. Lots of traffic (merging into right turn lane, coming in and out of driveways) and peds. There is enough going on in front of me and to my left/behind that focusing on some rambo cyclists and preparing for them to blatently break the law was a concern of mine, but way down in priorities. Like most cyclists I am very cyclist aware when driving and will always wait before crossing a side street, always wait until safe to pass, etc. But I won't stop in the middle of a right turn lane on green, turn around and scan looking for some cyclists I saw 200yrd up the road because they might decided to run the light in front of me. Going slow and cautious was right.

    Al

  2. #252
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    Look I know you are trying to give me a hard time, but its one of those cases where you have to be there. Lots of traffic (merging into right turn lane, coming in and out of driveways) and peds. There is enough going on in front of me and to my left/behind that focusing on some rambo cyclists and preparing for them to blatently break the law was a concern of mine, but way down in priorities. Like most cyclists I am very cyclist aware when driving and will always wait before crossing a side street, always wait until safe to pass, etc. But I won't stop in the middle of a right turn lane on green, turn around and scan looking for some cyclists I saw 200yrd up the road because they might decided to run the light in front of me. Going slow and cautious was right.

    Al
    Actually, I wasn't giving you a hard time at all, I was making light of all the millions of things that we have to note, process and plan for when driving, cycling or even walking and chewing gum!
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  3. #253
    Senior Member tomcryar's Avatar
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    I think we can pretty much end this thread because I don't think some people will ever come to an agreement on anything, much less riding on the sidewalk--which was what this was all about........it came down to two people who are better off arguing their case in a philosophical classroom-under the guise of "knowledge" rather than genuine discussion..........what happened to telling your story and letting go when someone disagrees?? It's really not that important!
    Wise up and take your track wherever you find...........just be courteous to other people.

  4. #254
    kwv
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    Quote Originally Posted by chipcom
    I hate just having to walk and chew gum at the same time...I get soooo confused!
    I get so confussed too.

    Some people thinks it is okay for cyclists to ride on the side walk and run the red but not drivers???

    Okay let change the law to allow drivers to drive on the sidewalk and run the red, what people won't like this okay then we shouldn't allow cyclists to ride on the sidewalk and some shouldn't thinks it is okay for cyclists to run the red.

    In other words you cannot have one rule for one group of legal road users and another rule for another group of road users or an opinion for one group of road users and another opinion for another road users group doing the same thing.

  5. #255
    (((Fully Awake))) Serendipper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA
    My credentials are that I'm not an expert. I've referred many people to John S. Allen's writings but, when it comes to his views on sidewalk riding, he's full of it. It's too bad he accepts the party line and is unwilling to take a critical look at the evidence.
    Huh? I know I can be slow on the uptake at times, but WTF????????
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  6. #256
    domestique squeakywheel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nick burns
    I've been riding an awfully long time & the only people I see on the sidewalk are kids.
    OMG! Don't these children's parents realize how dangerous the sidewalk is?

  7. #257
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Those folks who really understand the risks of sidewalk riding could very likely ride the sidewalk in an equally safe way as on the road. They would know the hazards to look out for, they would stop and look before crossing driveways, know they are invisible to drivers, would ride at walking speed near pedestrians, would go slower looking out for debris and invisible ledges, etc. But riding this way relative to the traffic integrated way on the road is less efficient. You can't go as fast, you need to stop more often, etc. Unfortunately many folks (not you forum members) who ride on the sidewalk don't understand in depth and in many cases even casually the risks and don't take adequate precautions. There is also a barrier to riding in the street - if you don't take the thought to learn about making your ride as safe and effcient as possible you don't put enough thought into learning how to ride with traffic on the street and if you are not putting thought into how to be safe you stick on the sidewalk and ride unaware of the implications, but once one really considers the options one is more likely to ride in the street where one feels comfortable and on the sidewalk each on a case by case basis, but with knowledge and thought about why.

    Al

  8. #258
    Senior Member tomcryar's Avatar
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    What???? what rambling is this?

  9. #259
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Me or the thread?

    Al

  10. #260
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    I recently rode the sidewalks in an urban area, next to a 45 mph road for about 1.5 miles.I did it because I rarely ride on streets and am not comfortable riding with cars. I was almost hit or run over several times by cars going in/out of driveways or shopping center entrys.
    I realized that when drivers get ready to cross the sidewalk, they look far enough to
    make sure they will clear any pedestrians. On a bike, you're beyond their field of vision, yet going fast enough to get to the contact point at the same time. Not good and not the drivers fault. What are you doing there? Now, I stick to the trails. bk

  11. #261
    Senior Member ken cummings's Avatar
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    A tiny little bit of real data here; 4 cycling fatalities in my area in 2 years. Two by drunk drivers, one of whom is still in jail on full-on homocide charges. One, cause not known, on a narrow, busy, shoulderless road. Last, young woman, riding on sidewalk, rolls into crosswalk, hit by truck already making turn. He was turning with a green light. In this town it was legal where she was to ride on the sidewalk but not to ride across the pedestrian crossing. She paid the ultimate price.

    If she had been on the road she would likely be alive today.

    I have seen lots of discussion about lanes and sidewalks here. Many good thoughts and reasoning. I have just the one thought. A life was lost by a sidewalk rider.
    Last edited by ken cummings; 12-24-05 at 09:42 PM. Reason: rechecked the road shoulder

  12. #262
    Sumanitu taka owaci LittleBigMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bkaapcke
    I recently rode the sidewalks in an urban area, next to a 45 mph road for about 1.5 miles.I did it because I rarely ride on streets and am not comfortable riding with cars. I was almost hit or run over several times by cars going in/out of driveways or shopping center entrys.
    When I rode on sidewalks years ago (for a very brief period) I learned the same lesson.

    To be a very efficient sidewalk rider, it would help to have a head like an owl.
    No worries

  13. #263
    Senior Member Bruce Rosar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LittleBigMan
    To be a very efficient sidewalk rider, it would help to have a head like an owl.
    I agree. IMHO, it would also help to have maneuverability like you were on foot (the design of sidewalks, and the rules for using them, assume that you're in that category of maneuverability). In other words, it would help to be able to;
    • come to a complete stop almost instantly without falling over
    • move directly sideways
    • move straight back
    • step up and over a curb
    • make any combination of the above moves
    Tip: it's easier on a unicycle, Segway or wheelchair
    Last edited by Bruce Rosar; 12-31-05 at 11:26 PM.

  14. #264
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    I vote to "unsticky" this thread. It's pretty dead, and only reached 264, I mean 265 posts. That's nothing by our standards!

  15. #265
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    Im sorry but isn't this why way such a right of way is called a side "walk" and not a side "ride"?
    It also comforms to pedestrians needs and not bikers.. I dont know.. I dont find it safe for the same reasons that I would wonder about the reasonning of having pedestrians use my bike path.

  16. #266
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    I know some localities prohibit cycling on the sidewalk.
    I know it would not go over well to prohibt sidewalk cycling in many places, especially suburban where there are long stretches of sidewalk adjacent to fast arterials.
    But what about law prohibiting cycling over 10mph on sidewalk?

    Al

  17. #267
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    But what about law prohibiting cycling over 10mph on sidewalk?
    What about it?

    Who is proposing such an unenforceable solution to an undefined problem? Who wants such a law? For whose benefit? Why 10mph? Why not 5mph or 25mph? Who came up with 10 mph as having any safety significance at all?

    What municipality would place ANY emphasis or devote ANY resources for enforcement? And last but not least, how are bicyclists supposed to measure their speed?

  18. #268
    Senior Member oilfreeandhappy's Avatar
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    Sidewalks are definitely more dangerous. Drivers often don't look at the sidewalks. If you slow down to under 5 MPH at intersections and parking lot entrances, it may be OK.
    Jim
    Make a BOLD Statement While Cycling!

  19. #269
    That darn Yankee TexasGuy's Avatar
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    yes Sidewalks are very dangerous because drivers pull up to the road and then stop, thus effectively crossing your pathg and wham you slam right into their door. Our city also has a notorious habbit of putting up construction signs that obstruct 3/4+ of the sidewalk. Even funnier is our habbit of either ending the sidewalk on grass or having a straight 2-4 inch drop
    Life is about hanging onto what you think is important and finding out what really is important.
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  20. #270
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    I ride on sidewalks a lot, with traffic, when I have to go along major arterials. I cut through parking lots and alleys. I also ride on quiet streets on most of my daily commute. if you keep your eyes and ears open there's no problem. there's no way I'm getting my slow 5-10 MPH butt out on the major arterials where cars are going 50 mph.

  21. #271
    Senior Member tomcryar's Avatar
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    Wtf??

    It's been a long time since I posted anything, but I just had to say one more thing: STOP! stop talking about this because it's one of those unsolvable things..............ride your bike wherever and however you want--as long as you're responsible for your own actions......there should be no further discussion about this. treat drivers and pedestrians and other bicyclists the same exact way you want to be treated....thats also the basis of life in general....get over your petty bs

  22. #272
    your nightmare gal chipcom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tomcryar
    It's been a long time since I posted anything, but I just had to say one more thing: STOP! stop talking about this because it's one of those unsolvable things..............ride your bike wherever and however you want--as long as you're responsible for your own actions......there should be no further discussion about this. treat drivers and pedestrians and other bicyclists the same exact way you want to be treated....thats also the basis of life in general....get over your petty bs
    ...or we could discuss whatever we darn well feel like discussing in relation to the topic, since I believe this IS a discussion forum.
    "Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey

  23. #273
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    I ride on sidewalks a lot, with traffic, when I have to go along major arterials. I cut through parking lots and alleys. I also ride on quiet streets on most of my daily commute. if you keep your eyes and ears open there's no problem. there's no way I'm getting my slow 5-10 MPH butt out on the major arterials where cars are going 50 mph.
    Do you also use the sidewalk along arterials when the arterial has a bike lane?

    Al

  24. #274
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    Do you also use the sidewalk along arterials when the arterial has a bike lane?

    Al
    there are none of those along my route! I use bike lanes when I can! I use the bike lanes on college and 13th, Dorsey and other streets in Tempe. a significant part of my route is along Broadway, that's just too much for me!!

    I will say that I altered my route one day and had to be on a 45 mph road for a short distance and it didn't freak me out too much... the cagers did not squeeze or run me down, like has happened to some others...but I would still rather be on a less busy road.
    Last edited by rando; 04-11-06 at 07:49 PM.

  25. #275
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    there are none of those along my route! I use bike lanes when I can! I use the bike lanes on college and 13th, Dorsey and other streets in Tempe. a significant part of my route is along Broadway, that's just too much for me!!

    I will say that I altered my route one day and had to be on a 45 mph road for a short distance and it didn't freak me out too much... the cagers did not squeeze or run me down, like has happened to some others...but I would still rather be on a less busy road.
    What is your comfort on riding on arterials (or other >30mph roads) that have a wide outer lane (WOL). This usually mean the lane is 15ft or wider. A way to visualize this is as if the left BL stripe has been removed on a road that was striped with a BL.
    I am not offhandedly aware of a road in the vicinity of where you seem to ride that has a WOL, but perhaps you know of one and have tried it?

    Al

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