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  1. #276
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    I'm not sure I know of one. If I find one I will let you know. one strange thing I've noticed is that N/S roads seem to have bike lanes but not the E/W... Priest has bike lanes, I think Rural might and definitely College which isn't even a major road BUT leads right to ASU and is always crowded with bikes. even 52nd St has a bike lane that I've never seen anybody on. they do seem to create bike lanes where nobody wants to go. it was the stretch of Broadway just before 52nd ST that I was on briefly before turning right to 52nd. Not really that scary. But I was happy to get off of it.

  2. #277
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    CA specific sidewalk question

    I stuck this in here rather than create a new thread, hopefully someone can provide an answer.

    The California vehicle code Division 11 (Rules of the Road), section 21200 (a) states, "Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division..." Included in Division 11 is section 21663 which states, "Except as expressly permitted pursuant to this code, including Sections 21100. 4 and 21114.5, no person shall operate or move a motor vehicle upon a sidewalk except as may be necessary to enter or leave adjacent property."

    Since 21200 states that bicycles are subject to the requirements of Division 11 doesn't that make it illegal to ride a bike on any sidewalk in CA??

    In addition the definition of sidewalk specifies that it is for "pedestrian travel" (section 550). The current definition of pedestrian (section 467) specifically excludes cyclists.

    I ask only to help construct arguments against the motor vehicle drivers who tell me I should be on the sidewalk. Some cities I ride in have specific ordinances against sidewalk cycling (which I'm thinking are redundant in light of the vehicle code) and some do not.

  3. #278
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignatz
    I stuck this in here rather than create a new thread, hopefully someone can provide an answer.

    The California vehicle code Division 11 (Rules of the Road), section 21200 (a) states, "Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division..." Included in Division 11 is section 21663 which states, "Except as expressly permitted pursuant to this code, including Sections 21100. 4 and 21114.5, no person shall operate or move a motor vehicle upon a sidewalk except as may be necessary to enter or leave adjacent property."

    Since 21200 states that bicycles are subject to the requirements of Division 11 doesn't that make it illegal to ride a bike on any sidewalk in CA??
    Offhand without digging into CA laws, I would guess the difference is that bicycle drivers have rights and are subject to provisions applicable to drivers of vehicles, but Sec. 21100 prohibits motor vehicles, not vehicle drivers.

    Al

  4. #279
    Banned. Helmet Head's Avatar
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    The vehicle code is not as consistent as one would like, but I think that it's pretty clear that the "responsibilities" that cyclists are given by 21200 (same as drivers of vehicles) does not include the responsibility of MOTOR vehicle drivers to not drive on sidewalks.

    Also, we only have the same rights and responsibilities as vehicle drivers per 21200 when we are "riding upon a highway". When we're on a sidewalk, we're not "riding upon a highway"...

    I know, I know, I should have been a lawyer.

  5. #280
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Helmet Head
    I know, I know, I should have been a lawyer.
    Nope. A mime would have been a lot better. Never thought there could be anything more obnoxious; but silence would be golden
    Attached Images Attached Images

  6. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    Offhand without digging into CA laws, I would guess the difference is that bicycle drivers have rights and are subject to provisions applicable to drivers of vehicles, but Sec. 21100 prohibits motor vehicles, not vehicle drivers.
    Seems reasonable (as does HH's response). What about the contention that sidewalks are designated for pedestrian use and the definition of pedestrian specifically excludes cyclists:

    467. (a) A "pedestrian" is any person who is afoot or who is using any of the following:
    (1) A means of conveyance propelled by human power other than a bicycle.


    550. "Sidewalk" is that portion of a highway, other than the roadway, set apart by curbs, barriers, markings or other delineation for pedestrian travel.

    Just being anal....

  7. #282
    JRA
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ignatz
    I ask only to help construct arguments against the motor vehicle drivers who tell me I should be on the sidewalk.
    Bicyclists are hardly ever required to use the sidewalk. Motorists suggesting otherwise and suggesting that bicyclists are banned from the roadway in all likelyhood simply do not know what they're talking about. The exact wording varies in different states but, in general, bicyclists have the rights and responsibilities of drivers of vehicles. This includes the right to use roads set aside for vehicle use, which is essentially every road.

    The preceeding is true regardless of whether a bicycle is defined as a 'vehicle' as in my home state or a 'device', as it is in CA.

    There are some rare exceptions (see the thread: Where are cyclists banned besides freeways?), but bicyclists are hardly ever banned from using the roadway.

    ------------------------------

    Whether bicyclists are banned from riding places other than the roadway is a totally separate issue:


    Quote Originally Posted by Ignatz
    What about the contention that sidewalks are designated for pedestrian use and the definition of pedestrian specifically excludes cyclists...
    This does not necessarily mean that bicyclists are prohibited from riding on the sidewalk. Sidewalks are designed for pedestrians but use by others is often permitted.

    In most states, motor vehicle use of sidewalks is prohibited. But bicycle use of sidewalks is usually permitted. Where bicycling on the sidewalk is permitted, bicyclists have few if any rights on the sidewalk; the rights bicyclists have when on the road are gone. In some states, bicyclists on the sidewalk have the rights and responsibilities of pedestrians (bicyclists become POWs, 'pedestrians on wheels'). In other states, bicyclists on the sidewalk have even fewer rights than pedestrians.

    In some cases, misguided safety nannies and others who simply see bicycling as a nuisance have succeeded in getting the rights of bicyclists to choose where to ride taken away entirely. Even some so-called bicycling advocates either support laws against sidewalk riding or don't actively oppose them. This despite a total lack of credible evidence that sidewalk riding is inherently dangerous. Sidewalk riders don't meet the lofty appearance and mileage standards of these so-called advocates and don't fit their cycling paradigm (sorry for the use of the word "paradigm" but that fairly useless but important-sounding (pretentious) word is often used by people who apparently think it gives some kind of validity to their highly limited world view ).
    Last edited by JRA; 04-15-06 at 11:02 AM.
    "It may even be that motoring is more healthful than not motoring; death rates were certainly higher in the pre-motoring age."- John Forester
    "Laws cannot be properly understood as if written in plain English..."- Forester defending obfuscation.
    "Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks." - Forester, sociologist in his own mind
    "'There are no rules of the road on MUPs.' -John Forester" - Helmet Head quoting 'The Great One'

  8. #283
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    JRA and SBhikes for presidents.

    yes, there should be two.

    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  9. #284
    henna hackles , halt! deathskid5000's Avatar
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    i dont know what the "truth" is as far as actual personal safety but i believe that sidewalk riding in urban settings discourages the non cycling public from taking cyclists seriously as vehicles who have a right to the road. we cyclists cant have it both ways. we either claim roads as ours to ride safely and with respect from other vehicles, or we can putter along at a "safe" 5mph on the sidewalk. does that mean you shouldnt ride onto a sidewalk to go half a block to the coffe shop? probably not (i usually will walk my bike in such a case but thats me) just remember those old ladys you are whizzing by and scaring the hell out of on the sidewalk will hop in their suvs and take it out on all of us trying to claim our rightful place in our city streets.

  10. #285
    henna hackles , halt! deathskid5000's Avatar
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    12 year old BMXers in the suburbs obviously have a right to the sidewalk and that is probably the safest place for them to be riding with a helmet. my post was in regard to adult cyclists in cities. people who rather than go through an intersection or having to ride a couple blocks farther in the road hop curbs and ride at oncoming traffic at full speed. here in philly i see it all the time by everyone ranging from trek hybrid riding commuters to messengers and food deliverers, chicks on cruisers, spandexed road bikers....yeah some are going slow enough that they'll probably only hurt themselves when they get doored or run into a hydrant. Most are zig-zagging around unexpecting soft fragile pedestrians.

    if someone lives in sprawl and are doing a ten mile commute and it makes sense to bypass a dangerous stretch of road by riding an empty sidewalk who the hell cares. anyone doing that much riding hopefully is careful all the time.

  11. #286
    a77impala a77impala's Avatar
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    After suffering a broken shoulder when a fellow bicyclist hit me headon on the sidewalk I will never
    choose to ride the sidewalk rather than the street, I have lost my confidence that the other rider
    knows what to do when meeting. It is sad that I have lost that trust.
    Treks, 85-420, 87-560, 90-930,92-970, 95-930, 96-1220, LeMonds, 2000 Zurich, 05-Etape, 06-Versailles

  12. #287
    Senior Member savage24's Avatar
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    Avid cyclist met his end on routine trip
    By CHRISTINE VENDEL
    The Kansas City Star


    John W. Triggs, 65, had traveled the world on his bicycle.

    He had survived accidents, hardships and extreme temperatures on trips that spanned thousands of miles.

    But it was a three-mile jaunt from his home to the Kansas City Public Library that ended his life Friday. While returning home, Triggs’ bike collided with a loaded cement-mixing truck.


    John Triggs was riding east on a sidewalk along 12th Street when he encountered the truck at Grand Boulevard about 4 p.m. Friday, police said. Triggs saw the truck and stopped, witnesses told police. edit by savage24 - the cement truck was also traveling east on 12th St. then turning south on Grand.)

    The truck paused as its driver prepared to make a wide turn to avoid the curb and head south on Grand to a construction site.

    Triggs may have thought the truck had stopped to let him proceed, police said. Triggs rode into the street. The truck, which was halfway into its turn, clipped his bike and knocked Triggs to the asphalt.

    The truck’s rear dual tires ran over Triggs, who became entangled in the tires and was dragged a block before the driver realized what had happened.

    The driver told police he did not see Triggs.

    Police said Tuesday they could not determine who was at fault.

    “It could be a draw,” police Detective Paul Luster said. “Right now, we can’t place the blame on either person.”

    It took police several days to identify the bicyclist because of his traumatic injuries. The victim had a bank card bearing Triggs’ name in his pocket, and relatives and friends identified the damaged bike as his.

    Investigators on Tuesday matched fingerprints found in Triggs’ home to those on the body.
    Quote Originally Posted by catatonic
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  13. #288
    bragi bragi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA
    The alledged "proof" of the dangers of sidewalk cycling is a joke.




    OK, let's all drive cars. Cycling is just too dangerous.




    OMG! 1.8 times. Is that the risk of death or simply the risk of an accident of any kind?




    Wow, what a revelation! And this is relevant how?


    Give me a frickin' break! Show me some evidence that sidewalk cycling is actually more dangerous than cycling on the road. The burden of proof is on those who claim sidewalk cycling is dangerous.

    They've been trying for years and haven't come up with diddly squat so far.

    I've always respected Mr. Allen but it's interesting that he is LAB Regional Director, New York/New England, and 'sidewalk riding is dangerous' is the LAB party line.

    If it weren't for the fact that some people actually believe the party line propaganda, it'd be laughable.
    Why do you insist on riding on the sidewalk, anyway? It's slower, and it's very rude to pedestrians, too: they're walking along at 3 mph, having a good time, and then they suddenly have to deal with some person on a bike who wants to go 15-20 mph. In addition, let's be honest: bike riders who use the sidewalk don't just use the sidewalk, do they? They switch back and forth between road and sidewalk, as it suits them, which is highly unpredictable to both motorists and pedestrians, and that's just asking for it. Traffic is not a good venue for anarchists. You're using a VEHICLE. Be a mensch, and let pedestrians have the sidewalk.
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

  14. #289
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    you're envisioning a sidewalk full of happy pedestrians interrupted in their walking joy by a cyclist going very fast, mowing them down. that is hardly the picture I get when I talk about sidewalk cycling. Keep in mind sidewalk cycling is legal, or permitted, in many cities (like mine). Add to that the fact that most of the 6-ft sidewalks on my routes are totally deserted any time of day in my car-culture town. If I pass three peds in my five mile commute that is a lot. I also go slower on the sidewalk than I would on the road or BL. when approaching the rare pedestrian, I slow to around 5 mph and slowly pass them on their left. under these conditions, I see no reason NOT to use the sidewalk along this busy 6-lane 50-mph arterial. It's NOT unsafe, and I'm NOT mowing down pedestrians. under the proper conditions and with the right level of skill and care, sidewalk riding is not any more dangerous than riding anywhere else; you just have to pay attention to different things. would I try riding on the sidewalk in a densely-populated downtown area? probably not. but That is not where I'm riding.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  15. #290
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Uhh rando I ride on the streets with the sidewalks you describe (Rural, McClintock, Southern, Apache, Broadway, Baseline, etc.) and they are far more dangerous than you realize
    -peds at every bus stop, peds at every arterial intersection
    -blind alleys
    -lots of side streets and business driveway
    -it is rare not to have a driver position their car fully across the sidewalk while waiting to enter street
    -uneven pavements, especially across all the side entrances with very steep off angled slopes

    I'd take the bus long before I ride any distance >1mi on the sidewalk

    Al

  16. #291
    Senior Member dingster1's Avatar
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    Well you guys have convinced me! I see fully attired grown ups on expensive bicycles on the side walks here in Md and I'm like hmmmm???!!! I mean helmets and all. I live in a nice suburb and there and plenty of schools and kids around that traffic is plenty sane enough. I"ll be in the road!!! THat and the fact that I grew up in the country and thats all I'm really used to!

  17. #292
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by noisebeam
    Uhh rando I ride on the streets with the sidewalks you describe (Rural, McClintock, Southern, Apache, Broadway, Baseline, etc.) and they are far more dangerous than you realize
    -peds at every bus stop, peds at every arterial intersection
    -blind alleys
    -lots of side streets and business driveway
    -it is rare not to have a driver position their car fully across the sidewalk while waiting to enter street
    -uneven pavements, especially across all the side entrances with very steep off angled slopes

    I'd take the bus long before I ride any distance >1mi on the sidewalk

    Al
    yes, I know, Al-- those are the things you have to watch out for! keep in mind I am riding AFTER rush hours are over. there's not that many peds in the middle of the morning on Broadway. I can't talk about the other streets. I know Southern is more busy. after my recent accident I am super vigilant.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  18. #293
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    yes, I know, Al-- those are the things you have to watch out for! keep in mind I am riding AFTER rush hours are over. there's not that many peds in the middle of the morning on Broadway. I can't talk about the other streets. I know Southern is more busy. after my recent accident I am super vigilant.
    I wasn't very clear about my point. The danger is not pedestrian, it is all the other sidewalk factors, primarily intersections, that are the real concern.
    From the road, I see several times a week sidewalk cyclist having to struggle with motorist interaction at intersection, last minute swerves when they pull over sidewalk, nearly getting clipped when riding across x=walks. In a few cases I've had wrong way sidewalk rider jump into the oncoming traffic lane (with me in it) to avoid a car that is pulling out of driveway. In one case I nearly was clipped by the cyclist jumping off the curb at me.

    Al

  19. #294
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Yep, I have experienced some of this as well. usually people back up when they see me to be out of the sidewalk. if not, I go behind them and around. this doesn't happen often. No problems with intersections yet. I like this route because it saves me 20 minutes a day! I will probably get tired of it later and go back to the quiet route. thanks for the reminder!
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  20. #295
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    I always ride on the road... Drivers here are stupid!

  21. #296
    bragi bragi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rando
    you're envisioning a sidewalk full of happy pedestrians interrupted in their walking joy by a cyclist going very fast, mowing them down. that is hardly the picture I get when I talk about sidewalk cycling. Keep in mind sidewalk cycling is legal, or permitted, in many cities (like mine). Add to that the fact that most of the 6-ft sidewalks on my routes are totally deserted any time of day in my car-culture town. If I pass three peds in my five mile commute that is a lot. I also go slower on the sidewalk than I would on the road or BL. when approaching the rare pedestrian, I slow to around 5 mph and slowly pass them on their left. under these conditions, I see no reason NOT to use the sidewalk along this busy 6-lane 50-mph arterial. It's NOT unsafe, and I'm NOT mowing down pedestrians. under the proper conditions and with the right level of skill and care, sidewalk riding is not any more dangerous than riding anywhere else; you just have to pay attention to different things. would I try riding on the sidewalk in a densely-populated downtown area? probably not. but That is not where I'm riding.
    In your situation, as described, I might do the same thing. (In my own cycling, I just avoid roads like that entirely, and take side streets, but that may not be possible where you live.)
    If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.

  22. #297
    JRA
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    Quote Originally Posted by bragi
    Why do you insist on riding on the sidewalk, anyway?
    Huh! What thread are you reading?

    Quote Originally Posted by bragi
    It's slower, and it's very rude to pedestrians, too:
    The first part of that is true as I'm sure I've said earlier in this thread. The second part could be true, but only if there are pedestrians. Many sidewalks almost never see pedestrians (the sidewalks don't go anywhere, so why would anybody walk on them? :-)).

    I don't insist on riding on the sidewalk. Actually, I probably ride according to the vehicular rules of the road as much, if not more, than most self-proclaimed 'VC' cylists do.

    I don't ride on the sidewalk much but, if I did, I wouldn't feel the need to justify the way I ride on this forum.

    I do reserve the right to ride on the sidewalk. Anyone who favors laws against sidewalk riding is not a friend of mine. I would like to be given a ticket for riding (at pedestrian speed and yielding to all pedestrians) on the sidewalk because I'd like to challenge that law in court. Such a law, in the absence of any evidence that riding in that manner is dangerous, is total BS.

    The accepted wisdom that sidewalk riding is inherently dangerous is a big lie. There aren't any studies that show that. I've been looking for years and I can't find any (for any sidewalk riding haters out there: if you know of such a study, please, 'show me the beef' (I'm not holding my breath)).

    Sidewalk riding IS inefficient, no doubt about it. I don't think anybody argues that. What annoys me is those who promote the 'big lie' about sidewalk riding simply because sidewalk riding does not conform to their bicycling "paradigm" (as they like to call it). These people are being dishonest.

    Granted, some people ride too fast on the sidewalk and don't yield to pedestrians.

    That doesn't mean that sidewalk riding should be illegal.

    By that same reasoning, riding on the street should be illegal since many cyclists who ride on the street ride in a dangerous manner.

    If somebody feels compelled to pass a law, they should pass a law against riding dangerously (on the sidewalk or elsewhere). How hard is that? We have laws against careless and imprudent driving. Those laws could apply to bicycles. Anti-bicycling laws that prevent bicyclists from choosing where to ride aren't needed.

    Most sidewalk accidents occur to youth and/or inexperienced cyclist, a fact the promoters of the 'big lie' never seem to mention. They're fond of comparing acccidents that occur to youth on the sidewalk to accidents that occur to adults on the road. It's an invalid comparison.

    Sure, there are hazards to riding on the sidewalk. But the hazards are no greater than the hazards of riding on the street (if accident severity is considered, they're probably less).

    Laws against sidewalk riding are anti-bicycling. They are virtually unenforceable. The only purpose they've ever served is as a means to harass bicyclists (you generally won't be stopped for riding on the sidewalk BUT if you ever want to exercise your right to free speech, don't be caught with a bicycle on the sidewalk - the cops will nail you for sure - "darn bicyclists! lock 'em all up!" :-)).

    So-called advocates who throw a hissy fit every time someone paints a white line a on the pavement but stand idly by when laws against sidewalk riding are passed, are not advocates as far as I'm concerned. They're just out of touch.
    Last edited by JRA; 07-03-06 at 10:17 PM.
    "It may even be that motoring is more healthful than not motoring; death rates were certainly higher in the pre-motoring age."- John Forester
    "Laws cannot be properly understood as if written in plain English..."- Forester defending obfuscation.
    "Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks." - Forester, sociologist in his own mind
    "'There are no rules of the road on MUPs.' -John Forester" - Helmet Head quoting 'The Great One'

  23. #298
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    I agree with JRA, and was going to post something along the same lines. More than once, I've been stopped at a light and told by a motorist that I was crazy riding on the road, and I was going to get myself killed or something. I was tempted to, but thankfully didn't, tell them that the sidewalks are more dangerous. This is what the statistics showed, I thought. It seems so counter-intuitive, but it must be true, I thought. The road feels dangerous, but it's actually safer, I thought.

    Then I started to reconsider, since the kind of cyclist who rides on the sidewalk is generally less experienced and rides less cautiously than the kind of cyclist who rides on the road. And I remembered seeing statistics showing that cyclists who rode rain-or-shine got in fewer accidents than cyclists who avoided rain and snow. Which clearly demonstrated not that rain and snow is safer than dry weather, but that experienced (all-weather) cyclists get in fewer accidents. So I thought, what if the same is true with sidewalk riders versus road riders? The roadways, perhaps, aren't inherently safer; rather, road riders tend to get in fewer accidents than sidewalk riders, because of their skill, experience, and greater caution.

    I was going to post a new thread here, with my hypothesis (sidewalk riding is not inherently more dangerous, as long as you're aware of the dangers), but then I discovered this thread, skimmed the beginning and end of it, and decided against posting. Now, JRA, you've said pretty much everything I was going to say.

    So, rather than trusting "statistics" over my instinct and common sense (about how safe/dangerous a certain road or sidewalk is under certain conditions), I'm going to ride on the road or on the sidewalk, whatever seems safest and most convenient to me in any particular situation, and with full awareness of the dangers (including driveways, alleys, pedestrians, turning cars whose drivers don't see you, etc.). And I'm not going to make a fool of myself by telling drivers that I'm riding on the road because the sidewalk is more dangerous. They probably wouldn't believe me anyway.

  24. #299
    Been Around Awhile I-Like-To-Bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA
    Sure, there are hazards to riding on the sidewalk. But the hazards are no greater than the hazards of riding on the street (if accident severity is considered, they're probably less).
    There is no qualifying "if" about considering accident severity when evaluating the risk from hazards. Severity must be considered along with probability to do a credible hazard analysis.

    UNLESS the the so-called evaluator (i.e. John Forester or similar acolyte) is an agenda driven snake oil salesman promoting BS as some sort of scientific evidence of the validity of his theories.

  25. #300
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    I've always found it amazing that so many people parrot the "sidewalks are more dangerous" lie, and seem to accept it as truth with no solid evidence or studies to back it up. it's classic propaganda... it's repeated so often by so many, people just believe it. the argument SOUNDs like it might be reasonable, so it must be true. It IS a convenient lie for advocates who want to get people to ride on the road only, all the time. I will continue to ride sidewalks where appropriate. my one accident happened in my driveway. so far THAT is the most dangerous place for ME to ride!
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

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