meanwhile

Riding on the sidewalk may sometimes be safer than the road. That doesn't mean that it is completely safe, even at those times. And often it will be more dangerous.

Neither bike lanes or sidewalks are safe in an absolute sense, and neither is necessarily safer than riding on the road - I've seen very dangerous bike lanes in my time. Riders on the sidewalk are much more likely to be the victims of cars pulling out of driveways; drivers not only won't be looking for cyclists on the sidewalks, they often won't be able to see them.

Really? What if the road is a dead-end in a suburban housing estate that doesn't see any traffic except when drivers pull out or into their drives? Etc.

hotbike

I was on the sidewalk briefly yesterday, as I was trying to adjust the barrel adjuster on my rear deraileur.
Two cars went by and it looked like they were drag racing (4 lane road). About 5 seconds later I heard a "BOOM!".
One of the cars had left the roadway, went across three front lawns, knocked down an insurance agents sign, destroyed a concrete planter, and come to rest on a wheelchair ramp in front of a nail salon.

I have concluded that the sidewalk is dangerous, even to adjust or fiddle with your bike. (I had my bike upside down while I was adjusting the deraileur).

Jepeux

I came to the same conclusion when I saw a 5 car pileup in a fairly quiet road. I have concluded that the road is dangerous.

See what I did there?

hotbike

Yeah, I see what you did. Okay, the sidewalk generally is not dangerous, it's very rare to see drag racers go out of control and jump the curb. I shouldn't have used the word "concluded".
I rarely use the sidewalk, I just had to fiddle with a barrel adjuster on my deraileur.
I did not expect a hot-rod Honda to jump the curb within 200 feet of me.

The driver looked funny with his airbag depolyed, and his pit-bull sitting in his lap. I think the dog may have played a part in the accident.

City_Smasher

This sounds like complete BS. Yeah, cycling is dangerous. Afterall, those who drive don't have to be afraid of being involved in an accident with a bicycle. They won't be hurt, and their car will hardly be scratched.

But then, walking down the street is dangerous also. How many times do you hear about someone plowing into a crowded bus stop, or a crowd of people somewhere.

Cars cause WAY more fatalities, then bicycles.

Hot Potato

First post of this thread cites a study done outside the USA, in a culture and infrastructure distinctly different than the USA. I say prove it applies to the USA before asking USA residents to take it seriously. Sorry, didn't read the 23 previous pages to see if this has already been discussed.

But from Mr. Mortiz SURVEY:

In December, 1996, 20% (4712) of the League of American Bicyclist members were surveyed about their cycling experiences during CY 1996. The 33 questions included: bicycle type and equipment, distribution of bicycle trips by purpose (e.g. work, on-road recreation), total distance cycled, commuting habits, accidents, and demographic data. The survey was designed to update one done by Kaplan in 1975. By the March 31, 1997, deadline over 2400 (52%) had been returned. Of these 19% were rejected due to incompleteness or inconsistent responses leaving 1956 valid surveys.

Now from a more updated, 2008 Hot Potato survey:

67% of adult cyclists who ride to my place of employment (that's me and my buddy) were surveyed. Of these 50% responded in a complete fashion and were included (that would be me). Extensive analysis, interviews, and questions clearly demonstrated that sidewalk riding is prefered and even safer in many circumstances.

Now there folks, is your "proof." LOL!

MiltotheStilt

Here in suburban Atlanta, GA, we have no bike lanes and sometimes no sidewalks. Metro-Atlanta is regarded by some as one of the least bicycle-friendly cities in the U.S. When I do my commute I first drive to a point where I can ride on the sidewalk the whole way, about 4.5 miles. Riding suburban arteries in Atlanta during rush hour (morning or afternoon) is just too dangerous, in my opinion. Of course, I'm breaking the law. Riding bicycles on sidewalks is illegal in Georgia. But the suburban sidewalks are almost devoid of pedestrians, and appear to me the best alternative. All of the main intersections I cross have pedestrian crosswalks and signals, which I use like a pedestrian. I have to be very vigilant at curb cuts, and often come to a complete stop at certain high volume curb cuts (Wendy's, etc.).

I try to make myself as visible as possible. Flashing red lights front and rear. Neon green jerseys. Polite waves to drivers who give me the right-of-way.

Nothing is perfect or perfectly safe, but in suburban Atlanta, I feel better on the sidewalks for now. Should bike lanes be constructed or pedestrian use of sidewalks increase dramatically, I might change my mind.

FredOak

If I see a cyclist shooting between curbs with total disregard to stop lights and traffic signs, I'd say their risk is increased. If I see a cyclist on the road with the same disregard, same kind of elevated risk factor. Which is safer?...I think it depends more on the rider then the enviorment.

Based on MY observation ONLY, in my area anyway, road riders are more cautious, sidewalk riders think they are above and beyond all rules and invincible.

sweetprince

[I try to make myself as visible as possible. Flashing red lights front and rear. Neon green jerseys. Polite waves to drivers who give me the right-of-way.

[/QUOTE]

Be careful in the cross walks. The worst bike accident I have seen happened to a guy riding on the sidewalk in Columbus Oh. A car pulled up into the crosswalk right in front of him to try to make a right on red. The guy hit the car and flipped over the guy's hood landing on the other side. No amount of visibility would have prevented this accident. There weren't bike lanes, but if he was in the road this wouldn't have happened. I'm not trying to judge, just giving some warning.

perico

I live in Peachtree City Georgia, we have over 100 miles of bicycle-running-golf cart paths (yes WTF). And people soup-up their golf carts and its awesome. I ride on the bike paths to do errands but when I want to work out and go fast and really log some miles I ride on the road. Now in Georgia the road biking law says that a bike can use the road unless a police officer can judge that it is safer for the cyclist to ride on near by sidewalks or bicycle paths. The bike paths are hella dangerous, there are blind turns, they arent always well maintained, there are lots of runners, children, old people, dog walkers with leashes (trip wires), and golf carts. It is legal for a 15 year old to drive a golf cart in PTC, and a 12 year old can drive one if they are accompanied by an adult, doing this is like arming the blind, it makes the paths noting but a glorified death row and I refuse to ride my street bike on them.

FredOak

And then last night I'm riding towards one of our larger parks and I hear this motorcycle coming up behind me, I do a head turn and don't see him, one seconds later he blows by me doing at least 40...on the sidewalk..goes up a couple blocks turns around and comes back, popping wheelies, cranking it out, still on the sidewalk.

Point...don't matter where you ride...expect the unexpected.

richardg

Doesn't matter whether the bike is on the road or the sidewalk, since it's stopped for the red light.

ped42

Jepeux regarding the above what do you think of a US cycling group saying allowing sidewalk cycling is both stupid and dangerous idea?

And my question is how can novice riders get the experience of riding on the road, is they are riding on the sidewalk?

ped42

As I got a no response from QLD Transport Cycling Section for their opinion, I would considered allowing cyclists of all ages to ride on the footpath (sidewalk) is both dangerous and stupid.

And encourages not a few but many Brisbane cyclists to break the law and put themselves and others in danger, by not only running the red, but riding straight off the footpath onto a pedestrian crossing.

Like many at the Intersection of Boundary and Vulture St West End, the crossing on North Quay end of the Victoria Bridge and the 2 young cyclists (one with a black top and the other pink top) who rode straight off the footpath onto the crossing and back onto to the footpath in Melbourne St South Brisbane Monday 11th August.

ped42

Well at least JRA you admitted in public you are not an expert?

Also looking at what John S Allen has done, can you do any better?

And have you taken a critical look at the evidence?

Or is this evidence one sided and is full of it?

Like when some saying speeding does not kill, the so called evidence is full of it and one sided to be made up to what these who thinks speeding is ok, wanted to read and hear what they wanted to read and hear and not what reality is, like the motoring group that has only 1 member (Michael Lane) National Motorists Association Australia.

ped42

And I would say this applies not to only a few but many Brisbane riders, who thanks to Local Law allowing cyclists to ride a legal road vehicle on the footpath, encourages cyclists to ride in a dangerous and stupid manner, because they think they are beyond all rules and invincible, especially when a marked police car is close by and does nothing.

ped42

And your education and experience is City_Smasher?

Hot Potato

To settle the question, you do what Mr. Harry Hurt did for motorcycles a few decades ago. Mr. Hurt and his team responded to every single police and ambulance call involving a motorcycle in a large metropolitan area. Yes, he trained enough responders so that at any given time, at any point in the defined large area, someone who was trained in the standardized data gathering methods would be on scene to examine evidence and talk to witnesses. All in a standardized manner, so that the data could be analyzed later. This was a monumental study, and illuminated the cause of nearly all motorcycle accidents. With the analysis, a motorcyclist could modify his behavior to lessen risk.

So, you do what Mr. Harry Hurt did. Assemble a large team, collect data in a standardized manner for every police, ambulance, and Emergency room visit involving a bicycle. Any incident that didn't result in a police, ambulance, or ER visit would be deemed insignificant. This would be objective. It would be a true "snapshot" for that geographic area and time. It would not be ridiculous and biased like some survey of admitted and dedicated road riders.

I think we would all be surprised at the results.

joejack951

In one breath you chide others for making a sweeping generaliztion and in the next sentence (bolded) you make one yourself. My personal opinion is that if you are putting that much faith in bike lanes for making the roads safer for you, you don't know a whole lot about safe cycling in the first place.

Novice cyclists should choose their roads wisely. A local cyclist was recently killed while riding along a major arterial. He was riding against traffic on the sidewalk, lost control of his bike, fell into traffic, and was killed. If you don't know how to handle the traffic on a road, you're much better off choosing less trafficked roads to build up your cycling skills first.

JRA

You know what an expert is, don't ya?

An expert is someone from out of town.

This thread long ago reached the point after which nothing new can be said.

uke

Where I live, I typically ride 60% MUP, 40% sidewalk when getting to campus. On campus, it's ~100% sidewalk. When going to the grocery store, it's 90% sidewalk, 10% road, depending on if the stretch close to home is clear or not. I live in a sidewalk friendly town. It's great! Where I used to live, there were almost no walks to speak of. Very few cyclists, too.

sdlm

Well, I think that there are many kinda extreme views being propagated here. I use the sidewalk about 10-20% of the time, and I always feel safe, and I think in fact I am safer. I do not think that the average person who rides on the sidewalk is however.

Let me relay this bit of admittedly anecdotal evidence to this story: Once when I was driving in downtown Richmond, VA in a Freightliner Columbia with a 53' Trailer, that had a pretty bad dogleg to the right, a Biker zoomed in front of me as I was making a right hand turn, I must have missed him by mere inches.

Now, this event shook me up a bit, I didn't at all see the cyclist, and I made sure to check my mirror the whole time taking the turn (if you don't do this you will hit everything with your tractor trailer). What had happened is, the cyclist who was directly behind me (where he cannot be seen from the cab of the Tractor-trailer) had moved onto the sidewalk apparently frustrated by how fast my truck was moving (I was taking the turn at 5-7mph, as fast as is safe in a tractor trailer downtown) and he darted onto the sidewalk and past my truck, and then moved across the road I was turning on, to hit the sidewalk that was on the other side of the street.

Now, I consider myself a good driver, but no amount of looking at my mirror would let me see a cyclist on my passenger side of my truck. The fact is, most sane people would never pass on the right especially not in a bicycle beside a Massive 70' long, 14' high, 80,000lb truck, but he did, and after passing me, he went right in front of me while I was still making my turn. This is not what a responsible cyclist would do I would never attempt to pass someone on the right, in my car, and I certainly wouldn't proceed to pull in front of them.

My point is, that I ride just as if I were on the road in my car or truck when I am on my bike, even if I am on the sidewalk, I stop before I cross the street, and I cross at intersections with crosswalks, not the middle of the road such as happened to me.

I believe rather firmly that the cyclists who actually think of their bikes as vehicles, and stop before crossing, look both ways, etc are not in any more danger regardless of where they are riding as long as they realize the risks (i.e. 20mph on the road is nothing, but 20mph on a sidewalk is well, dangerous and stupid in most places).

It is the people like the guy who ran in front of my truck (who btw had his pants falling off and no shirt, much less a helmet) who usually are riding on sidewalks, and they think that they don't need to follow any rules of road, as if those only apply to cars, these are the people who account of the majority of sidewalk (and probably all) accidents. Or at least that is my theory.

ped42

Yes JRA I know what an expert is, it is you putting people to sleep with comments that are nothing new and put people to sleep.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

ped42

With stats like this, have you thought of becoming the next US President?

Hey if it can work with The Bush's, it could work for you?

ped42

But sdlm and The Queensland Government especially The Cycling Unit of Queesland Transport and Councils like Brisbane, did they ask if pedestrians well always feel safe and are in fact safer, with the law allowing all cyclists to ride a legal road vehicle, with many cyclists not a few but many especially in Brisbane riding a unsafe manner like riding straight off the footpath (sidewalk) onto the crossing?