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  1. #701
    Senior Member skye's Avatar
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    Take a LAB Road Skills 101 course, and get on the road. You'll be much safer and much happier.

    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    I always ride on the sidewalk especially when just cruising on through. If I wish to ride fast, I ride either on a bike trail, or in the alley. From my point of view, riding in the street is far more dangerous than riding on the sidewalk, especially a sidewalk in a residential or industrial neighborhood. Street bikers face too many hazards when riding in the street, for instance, getting whacked by an opening car door, getting broadsided and/or even rear ended by a reckless driver, getting crushed between vehicles at a left turn, and getting mowed down by truckers, especially when it is an 18 wheeler. And in many of those kinds of cases, a helmet would provide no protection, as when you are on a bicycle, an impact as low as 25 miles per hour can and will still kill or maim you by breaking your neck. And I am sure that there are hundreds of quadriplegics out there who were once avid bikers and then one day while riding in the street and wearing their helmets, they got hit by a motor vehicle and the impact left them permanently wheelchair bound. Even outside of Illinois, not all drivers will watch where they are going, and in fact, Illinois travellers have driven through every single other state in the nation, including Alaska and Hawaii.

  2. #702
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    Quote Originally Posted by skye View Post
    Take a LAB Road Skills 101 course, and get on the road. You'll be much safer and much happier.
    Until all car drivers are required to take the LAB Road Skills 101 course, I'm with Observer on this one. I've spent 45 years bike racing and commuting, and after being hit twice by cars in the last 20 years, I take to the sidewalks wherever I judge it to be the safer option. I bike commute in Baltimore and in Washington DC every work day, and I use the sidewalk for about half of each commute. Taking the lane in dangerous conditions is a loser's game. Share the sidewalk!

  3. #703
    Senior Member r0ckh0und's Avatar
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    This book is a pretty good read.................. http://www.amazon.com/Art-Urban-Cycl.../dp/0762727837 ..............well worth checking out. It offers a couple of different rider perspectives and theories.
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  4. #704
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skye View Post
    Take a LAB Road Skills 101 course, and get on the road. You'll be much safer and much happier.


    wrong!
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  5. #705
    Senior Member GraysonPeddie's Avatar
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    Really? Are you thinking of this?

    "Take a LAB Sidewalk Skills 101 course, and get on the sidewalk. You'll be much safer and much happier running over the pedestrians and get hit by oncoming cars."

    LOL!

  6. #706
    Senior Member mikeybikes's Avatar
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    I didn't personally find the TS 101 course to be all that compelling. Its a good course though to learn some techniques and gain confidence for when you need to travel in the road.

    In all honesty, I can't think of any place in Denver city and county where one has to travel on the sidewalk, so I can't see the big deal about riding in the road. We don't have many high speed arterials, and where they do exist, there's a parallel adjacent route...
    My Bikes: 2010 Breezer Uptown EX | 1980 Miyata 610 | 1970 Hercules | 198? Miele ?
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  7. #707
    Senior Member Shadowex3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GraysonPeddie View Post
    Really? Are you thinking of this?

    "Take a LAB Sidewalk Skills 101 course, and get on the sidewalk. You'll be much safer and much happier running over the pedestrians and get hit by oncoming cars."

    LOL!

    I doubt any pedestrians would mind if you ran over them considering the oncoming cars that are also on the sidewalk probably beat you to it.

  8. #708
    Senior Member aMull's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    I always ride on the sidewalk especially when just cruising on through. If I wish to ride fast, I ride either on a bike trail, or in the alley. From my point of view, riding in the street is far more dangerous than riding on the sidewalk, especially a sidewalk in a residential or industrial neighborhood. Street bikers face too many hazards when riding in the street, for instance, getting whacked by an opening car door, getting broadsided and/or even rear ended by a reckless driver, getting crushed between vehicles at a left turn, and getting mowed down by truckers, especially when it is an 18 wheeler. And in many of those kinds of cases, a helmet would provide no protection, as when you are on a bicycle, an impact as low as 25 miles per hour can and will still kill or maim you by breaking your neck. And I am sure that there are hundreds of quadriplegics out there who were once avid bikers and then one day while riding in the street and wearing their helmets, they got hit by a motor vehicle and the impact left them permanently wheelchair bound. Even outside of Illinois, not all drivers will watch where they are going, and in fact, Illinois travellers have driven through every single other state in the nation, including Alaska and Hawaii.
    Your point of view is wrong. Enjoy getting ran over on your "safe", uncomfortable, slow, inconvenient, illegal, sidewalk.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hertsgaard
    The car is not only tainting the present but devouring the past and threatening the future.

  9. #709
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aMull View Post
    Your point of view is wrong. Enjoy getting ran over on your "safe", uncomfortable, slow, inconvenient, illegal, sidewalk.
    He likes riding on the sidewalk, let him. it may be legal where he is. it is here. I do it all the time, and I haven't been "ran over" yet.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  10. #710
    Senior Member aMull's Avatar
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    He can do whatever he likes, obviously he's scared of the road for whatever reason, but his view that the street is "far more dangerous" than the sidewalk is simply not true.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mark Hertsgaard
    The car is not only tainting the present but devouring the past and threatening the future.

  11. #711
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    It's true for him.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  12. #712
    Senior Member Shadowex3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by aMull View Post
    He can do whatever he likes, obviously he's scared of the road for whatever reason, but his view that the street is "far more dangerous" than the sidewalk is simply not true.
    I'd say citation needed but I know you'd just spam us with those wonderfully convenient "studies" that don't differentiate between someone getting a bad flat and skinning their knee on the way down and someone getting hospitalized.

    But then again I'm trying to argue with facts and logic against someone that seems to genuinely consider ad hominem to be a legitimate form of argument. Think we can get a godwin next?

  13. #713
    Back on big wheels again
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    I'm back to the road now. a week of good riding and getting my legs back into shape really helped. I dont have much of a problem staying infront or with traffic for a few blocks on a sprint and feel comfortable when just cruising and having traffic pass me. Much better than the sidewalk.

    A funny little story a few friends and I were riding and I of course took the street, they took sidewalks. Everything was fine for them until they confronted a curb that their big beach cruisers couldnt manage.

  14. #714
    Senior Member Pieralberto's Avatar
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    Ilegal to ride sidewalk in Florida. this is my story
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8AM3u7Cr9I

  15. #715
    Powerful-Ugly Creature Greyryder's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Observer View Post
    It is very unlikely for a car to run over someone on the sidewalk. Especially since approximately 95% of all sidewalks are shielded from the street by the curb, and any driver that hits a concrete curb risks blowing out his tires, denting his rims, damaging his suspension and undercarriage, and even rendering his car undrivable. And not to mention other obstacles between the street and the sidewalk such as trees, street lights, and signs that can leave the car stopped dead in it's tracks.
    That's not how people get hit, when riding on sidewalks. They get hit by people pulling out of or into driveways and side streets. Being on the sidewalk not only moves you out of the mind of a driver pulling into a driveway/parking lot/side street, because they don't pay as much attention to what's on the sidewalk, and you're moving faster than what it normally expected of sidewalk traffic, but it also makes you harder to see when pulling out of a driveway/parking lot/side street that has obscured views to the side.

    It's especially bad in places like my town where there are narrow alleys running between close set buildings. The sidewalks do not stop for these alleys, which can make you forget about them. Even with a car moving out of the alley slowly and cautiously, there's still a good probability of a collision with a bike there. Wisely, my town has illegalized riding bicycles on the sidewalk in that part of town.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burton
    When some wild eyed eight foot tall maniac grabs you by the throat and taps the back of your favorite head head against the barroom wall, and he looks crooked in the eye, and he ask you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."

  16. #716
    Senior Member Shadowex3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pieralberto View Post
    Ilegal to ride sidewalk in Florida. this is my story
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8AM3u7Cr9I
    May I direct you to Florida Statute 316.2065 (10-11)

    (10) A person propelling a vehicle by human power upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, has all the rights and duties applicable to a pedestrian under the same circumstances.

    (11) A person propelling a bicycle upon and along a sidewalk, or across a roadway upon and along a crosswalk, shall yield the right-of-way to any pedestrian and shall give an audible signal before overtaking and passing such pedestrian.
    That's not how people get hit, when riding on sidewalks. They get hit by people pulling out of or into driveways and side streets. Being on the sidewalk not only moves you out of the mind of a driver pulling into a driveway/parking lot/side street, because they don't pay as much attention to what's on the sidewalk, and you're moving faster than what it normally expected of sidewalk traffic, but it also makes you harder to see when pulling out of a driveway/parking lot/side street that has obscured views to the side.

    It's especially bad in places like my town where there are narrow alleys running between close set buildings. The sidewalks do not stop for these alleys, which can make you forget about them. Even with a car moving out of the alley slowly and cautiously, there's still a good probability of a collision with a bike there. Wisely, my town has illegalized riding bicycles on the sidewalk in that part of town.
    So in other words people get hit because they behave irresponsibly and do not pay attention to their surroundings? Are you claiming that sidewalks emit magical stop-paying-attention rays and they will suddenly stop being irresponsible the instant their tires touch asphalt?

    Your argument is a logical fallacy.
    Last edited by Shadowex3; 05-26-10 at 08:09 PM.

  17. #717
    Powerful-Ugly Creature Greyryder's Avatar
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    My argument is fine. Your reading comprehension is what has failed.

    Drivers tend to pay less attention to what is on the sidewalk, because it's usually people walking. People walking more slowly than a bike moves, and able to stop much more quickly. It's also not where most drivers' attention is focused. Being on the sidewalk moves you further from the drivers center of attention and field of view. The sidewalk is not where the driver's attention is focused. It's not magic, it's human nature.

    There's still the issue of drivers pulling out of someplace, and onto the road. Being on the sidewalk puts you that much closer to the car, before the driver is physically able to see you, no matter how much attention they're paying.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Burton
    When some wild eyed eight foot tall maniac grabs you by the throat and taps the back of your favorite head head against the barroom wall, and he looks crooked in the eye, and he ask you if ya paid your dues, you just stare that big sucker right back in the eye, and you remember what ol' Jack Burton always says at a time like that: "Have ya paid your dues, Jack?" "Yessir, the check is in the mail."

  18. #718
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Hey! Let the guy ride on the sidewalk already. That's where he belongs. Why would you want him on the street slowing down bicycle traffic? These are the same people who, when they DO ride in the street and need to make a left turn, turn onto the sidewalk or go the wrong way on the bike lane rather than make a normal, vehicular left hand turn.

    These folks invariably wear helmets, which would make me laugh if I wasn't busy dodging them as they come at me on the wrong side of the road.
    Sidewalk riding is for children and other beginners and people riding as slowly as pedestrians walk. The street is for vehicles.
    DISCLAIMER: Nothing here should be taken as legal advice, even if it seems silly enough to have been written by a legislator, and especially not if it appears (by remote chance) to display any evidence of erudition.

  19. #719
    Senior Member SunnyFlorida's Avatar
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    Sidewalk conditions/legalities can vary like the rider. Best not to make blanket statements concerning them.

    Observer - The only true consideration is whether you are breaking the law. If not, common sense rules here. If the sidewalk is heavy with pedestrians, then you may want to go to the street rather than risk riding among so many pedestrians. Beyod this, put away your stats and enjoy your ride.

    Shadowex - How would you interpret this section of the Florida Bike Law (section 316):

    (14) Every bicycle shall be equipped with a brake or brakes which will enable its rider to stop the bicycle within 25 feet from a speed of 10 miles per hour on dry, level, clean pavement.

    One LBS owner says it means that you can't go over 10 mph on the sidewalk. I think the 10 mph limit applies to the street too because it says pavement not sidewalk. Of course bikes can go faster than 10 mph but saying it explicitly in this section can imply that this is the speed limit for bikes. What do you think or anyone else familiar with this section?

    BTW, my speed is increasing. I'm going at a super sonic speed of 6 mph on my trike. Yayyyyy!!!

  20. #720
    JRA
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyMiami View Post
    (14) Every bicycle shall be equipped with a brake or brakes which will enable its rider to stop the bicycle within 25 feet from a speed of 10 miles per hour on dry, level, clean pavement.

    One LBS owner says it means that you can't go over 10 mph on the sidewalk. I think the 10 mph limit applies to the street too because it says pavement not sidewalk. Of course bikes can go faster than 10 mph but saying it explicitly in this section can imply that this is the speed limit for bikes. What do you think or anyone else familiar with this section?
    The 10 mph figure is not a speed limit at all; it's just a specification for a braking performance test. The brake test also specifies dry, level, clean pavement. It doesn't mean it's illegal to ride down a hill in the rain.

    The braking performance test is half-way reasonable, as opposed to the skid test that some states have. The skid test is a farce because, as anyone familair with the physics involved in stopping a bicycle knows, skidding is not stopping.

    But, of course, I've gone off topic.

    As long as I've already skidded off track, I might as well also note that "pavement" in British English is what is called a sidewalk in U.S. English. "Pavement" in U.S. English does not generally mean sidewalk.
    "It may even be that motoring is more healthful than not motoring; death rates were certainly higher in the pre-motoring age."- John Forester
    "Laws cannot be properly understood as if written in plain English..."- Forester defending obfuscation.
    "Motorist propaganda, continued for sixty years, is what has put cyclists on sidewalks." - Forester, sociologist in his own mind
    "'There are no rules of the road on MUPs.' -John Forester" - Helmet Head quoting 'The Great One'

  21. #721
    Senior Member Shadowex3's Avatar
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    Sunnymiami: I would say that LBS is not one you should shop at, just in case the owner is also firmly convinced you should put Winter Air in your tires and avoid riding too far south in case you fall off the earth.

    The way the language is constructed it's clearly and obviously stating that your brakes should be at least good enough to stop you in those conditions at that speed. It's not saying anything else. As JRA said if you read that to say a 10mph speed limit then you must also read it to say you cannot ride it in any conditions other than on clean and level pavement. So no riding in grass, no uneven ground, the ground must be clean, and it can't be wet.

    According to that LBS owner the best way to keep bicycles out of somewhere is to rub a little damp mud on the ground like a magic circle... Then again a lot of people in A&S are equally certain that crosses, garlic, and salt circles can keep VCers away so maybe it's not so crazy.

  22. #722
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    10 mph? Even an old fart like me can do 30 and the pros can hit 50+ mph. Vehicles at those speeds do not belong on sidewalks. I repeat: sidewalks are for kids and pedestrians and bicyclists going the same speed as pedestrians.
    DISCLAIMER: Nothing here should be taken as legal advice, even if it seems silly enough to have been written by a legislator, and especially not if it appears (by remote chance) to display any evidence of erudition.

  23. #723
    Senior Member SunnyFlorida's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JRA View Post
    The 10 mph figure is not a speed limit at all; it's just a specification for a braking performance test....
    Thanks JRA for clearing this up. It does make sense now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowex3 View Post
    Sunnymiami: I would say that LBS is not one you should shop at, just in case the owner is also firmly convinced you should put Winter Air in your tires and avoid riding too far south in case you fall off the earth......
    Oh don't be so hard on my LBS. He's a sweetie but a tad overprotective maybe. I guess he wants to make sure I'm going slow - real slow, as if I'm not going slow enough now.

    Quote Originally Posted by danarnold View Post
    10 mph? Even an old fart like me can do 30 and the pros can hit 50+ mph. Vehicles at those speeds do not belong on sidewalks. I repeat: sidewalks are for kids and pedestrians and bicyclists going the same speed as pedestrians.
    Yes, riding faster than 30 is pretty good for an ole fart like you.

    Frankly I wouldn't want someone riding 30 mph or more on the sidewalk either. That's a pretty fast clip.

    However, I disagree about cyclists going as fast as pedesterians. Even going at the slow range of 5 or 6 mph, you're still going faster than the average adult pedesterian which is about 3-4 mph. The average jogger goes around 5-7 mph. Again, even a slow cyclist like me can easily past a fast jogger by bike or trike.

    Just thought I'd clear this up since there seems to be this general notion (among others) that if you're cycling really slow on the sidewalk then why bother biking. Obviously it beats walking.

    Again, I'm lucky. I can bike on the street or the sidewalk in Florida. I go back and forth on both, as conditions permit.

    If a bike lane or side street is handy and/or the traffic is not heavy, I ride on the street which usually gives me a faster and smoother ride but it is also more dangerous for me being a newbie rider.

    If traffic is insane and/or there is no bike lane or side street route I can take, I go for the sidewalk and go a bit slower not necessarily because of walkers (cause I hardly see any) but because those sidewalks are rough on me and my trike.

  24. #724
    Kaffee Nazi danarnold's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SunnyMiami View Post
    ....

    However, I disagree about cyclists going as fast as pedesterians. Even going at the slow range of 5 or 6 mph, you're still going faster than the average adult pedesterian which is about 3-4 mph. The average jogger goes around 5-7 mph. Again, even a slow cyclist like me can easily past a fast jogger by bike or trike. .
    And that's why you should stay off the sidewalk; unless you're going their speed you're dangerous to them and especially to old folk and children who are going even slower. Get some balls and some legs and ride in the street like a cyclist, not the sidewalk like a kid.
    DISCLAIMER: Nothing here should be taken as legal advice, even if it seems silly enough to have been written by a legislator, and especially not if it appears (by remote chance) to display any evidence of erudition.

  25. #725
    Al noisebeam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by danarnold View Post
    Get some balls and some legs and ride in the street
    It takes neither 'balls' nor 'legs' to ride in the street. With basic physical ability all it takes is a brain and the ability to use it to learn and develop the skills to comfortably ride with traffic.

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