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  1. #901
    Still spinnin'..... Stealthammer's Avatar
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    Bicycles can be as dangerous to pedestrians as cars are to us. Sidewalks are for pedestrian traffic and tricycles. Bike trails are shared access for pedestrians and bicycles. Roads are for shared access for cars and bicycles. Simply rules. If you want to be respected on the roads, respect users of the sidewalks as well as the roads.

    If a sidewalk needs to be redesignated as a bike path for safety reasons petition to get it changed or buy a car of paint to warn pedestrians that thatsection is shared use.

    If anyone wants to complain about "defacing" public property, I suggest that it is simply a "non-violent" social protest against the non-responsive local government. I guarantee that most pedestrians will appreciate the warning rather that having a cyclist blast past unexpectedly.
    Last edited by Stealthammer; 09-16-11 at 09:11 AM.
    Just your average 'high-functioning' lunatic, capable of passing as 'normal' for short periods of time.....

    “The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.” - Albert Einstein

    “We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak.” - Albert Einstein

  2. #902
    Still spinnin'..... Stealthammer's Avatar
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    Sidewalks in the US are NOT bike paths and are far to narrow to be used for them.
    Just your average 'high-functioning' lunatic, capable of passing as 'normal' for short periods of time.....

    “The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.” - Albert Einstein

    “We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak.” - Albert Einstein

  3. #903
    Senior Member Eclectus's Avatar
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    Sidewwalk riding vs. street riding, figure out each of their "rules". Sidewalk riding, including wide-pathway MUPs, be ready to stop. Pedestrians, dog-walkers, slow down. Cross streets and driveway exits, look at what cars are doing. Laws requiring stopping before sidewalks and crosswalks are often ignored. You decide whether you want to be inconvenienced by having to slow down, or being involved in a collision.

    Street/road riding, use a taillight, maybe a good blinking headlight. If you can afford it, check out DiNotte, or something equivalent. These aren't legally required in the daytime, but they do alert drivers. For the DiNotte taillight, it's a "What's that ahead?" wakeup/ alert device.

    At night, a Monkeylectric side-illumination device is a really nice light.

    Fundamentally, if you ride a lot, you want to send an alert to motor vehicle drivers, "I'm in this space." The vast majority of drivers will give you your space. Dinotte taillights are really good at this, if you ride on-streeet/on road.

  4. #904
    Just smang it. EpicSchwinn's Avatar
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    This was published in my school paper today... oof

    Our city does have roads where cycling on the street is illegal which explains cyclists moving up and out of the way. But to say the safest thing is for bicyclists to ride on sidewalks all the time???

  5. #905
    Senior Member No Whey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EpicSchwinn View Post
    This was published in my school paper today... oof

    Our city does have roads where cycling on the street is illegal which explains cyclists moving up and out of the way. But to say the safest thing is for bicyclists to ride on sidewalks all the time???
    Do you have time to write a reasoned response and send it to the paper? You should.

  6. #906
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EpicSchwinn View Post
    This was published in my school paper today... oof

    Our city does have roads where cycling on the street is illegal which explains cyclists moving up and out of the way. But to say the safest thing is for bicyclists to ride on sidewalks all the time???
    This article is exactly why I'm against establishment of bikepaths.
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

    -- Paul Dirac

  7. #907
    Senior Member FastRod's Avatar
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    This is just my own opinion and based on personal experiences. I do ride on the road and I do ride on the pavement "to me" I feel that riding on the pavement is safer as in I don't have to worry so much of a bloody car ramming you from the back. I feel that the pavement is safer even though there are more incidents that will happen for example cars coming in and out of their driveways and because drivers expect slow moving pedestrians instead of cyclist. I ring my bell and overtake on the grass when passing pedestrians thus causing less problems with them ( some do purposely not move ) .

    To me knowing your route and the dangers of your commute makes your commute safer not whether you ride on the road or not but I do agree that if a person does not know his or her route and is going at same pace on the pavement and the road, the pavement would be more dangerous due the the number of incidents can occur but to me their not life threatening like cars but their my own opinions based on what I believe. Feel free to object anything I say with facts or your own opinions.

  8. #908
    Senior Member FastRod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john gault View Post
    This article is exactly why I'm against establishment of bikepaths.
    In Perth, there are a lot of bike paths and actually they help a lot. Their pretty much the safest thing to be on reason being we have bike paths that runs parallel beside the highway so their straight and allows you to get to the city quicker ( no traffic lights =D )

  9. #909
    Senior Member Eclectus's Avatar
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    I have a couple problems with riding the sidewalk, and so-called parallel-to-street "bike paths" that have been glommed onto by pedestrians.

    Two/three-abreast walkers, dog-walkers with extendo leashes totally blocking the "bike path". "There's a walking space right here, it's meant for us." Not what it was funded for...

    It's okay. But then you have to deal with car-and-truck drivers who glibly illegally cross over the sidewalk/crosswalk line, even though it is illegal, they never get ticketed, and learn to stop. So, if you're riding a bike on the sidewalk/street-parallel "bike path", you have to stop for them to accommodate their illegal behavior. If you are on the street, riding right-way, at least they see you. Because they are looking at in-the-street cross traffic.

  10. #910
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    Here's an article that shows states with laws concerning bikes on sidewalks. However, what I found interesting is that the laws (not just on sidewalks) treat cyclists the same as motorists with respect to right of way with pedestrians. In other words, although they don't say it directly, pedestrians always have the right of way. http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...nd_pedestrians
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

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  11. #911
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    Quote Originally Posted by john gault View Post
    Here's an article that shows states with laws concerning bikes on sidewalks. However, what I found interesting is that the laws (not just on sidewalks) treat cyclists the same as motorists with respect to right of way with pedestrians. In other words, although they don't say it directly, pedestrians always have the right of way. http://bicycling.com/blogs/roadright...nd_pedestrians
    Could you explain to me how the suggestion that bikers should ride on the sidewalks, will make you be against bike paths?

  12. #912
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Could you explain to me how the suggestion that bikers should ride on the sidewalks, will make you be against bike paths?
    I'm not sure what you're saying. I was just linking an article about states and their laws about sidewalk riding. What caught my eye was the last paragraph, which applies regardless if you're riding on a sidewalk, bikelane, bikepath or the road. I guess it caught my eye because around my area I'm always having to look out for pedestrians and I ride in the road.

    copied here:

    Everywhere

    You’ll likely encounter pedestrians who break the rules. But even if you have the right of way, it’s your legal duty to prevent a collision if possible.
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

    -- Paul Dirac

  13. #913
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    Quote Originally Posted by john gault View Post
    I'm not sure what you're saying. I was just linking an article about states and their laws about sidewalk riding. What caught my eye was the last paragraph, which applies regardless if you're riding on a sidewalk, bikelane, bikepath or the road. I guess it caught my eye because around my area I'm always having to look out for pedestrians and I ride in the road.

    copied here:

    Everywhere

    You’ll likely encounter pedestrians who break the rules. But even if you have the right of way, it’s your legal duty to prevent a collision if possible.
    Oh. Sorry. I quoted the wrong post. Should have been #906!

  14. #914
    Senior Member work4bike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hagen2456 View Post
    Oh. Sorry. I quoted the wrong post. Should have been #906!
    In post #906 I was expressing my concern of giving people (who want cyclists off the road) a foot to stand on, i.e. more bike paths will give them a foundation to get us off the road. And it's not just that article that I copied in the above post. Check out this thread http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...if-path-exists

    P.S. There is no such thing as a bike path, they're all MUPs, and if we're forced off the roads that means we're relegated to narrow paths in which we must bob&weave everyone, because pedestrians always have the right of way.
    "The aim of science is to make difficult things understandable in a simpler way; the aim of poetry is to state simple things in an incomprehensible way. The two are incompatible."

    -- Paul Dirac

  15. #915
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    Quote Originally Posted by john gault View Post
    In post #906 I was expressing my concern of giving people (who want cyclists off the road) a foot to stand on, i.e. more bike paths will give them a foundation to get us off the road. And it's not just that article that I copied in the above post. Check out this thread http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...if-path-exists

    P.S. There is no such thing as a bike path, they're all MUPs, and if we're forced off the roads that means we're relegated to narrow paths in which we must bob&weave everyone, because pedestrians always have the right of way.
    Okay, I guess that discussion had perhaps better be kept elsewhere. Suffice to say that what works is a matter of how you actually do things. Bike paths/tracks/whatever can work beautifully, or they may be almost impossible to use. The existence of crappy bike infrastructure certainly shouldn't in itself be enough to make one state that bikes belong in the (car) lanes. One cyclist will say that bikes belong in the road because that's safest and because it's our right as bikers to be there. Both statements are highly contestable, to say the least, and I think one would do right in recognizing this. Others will say that you'll never get a larger share of the potential cyclists to actually bike when they have to do so in often heavy and fast traffic.

  16. #916
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    wow 37 pages and 915 posts - this is certainly a hot topic for most of us! Just goes to show what we are passionate about here

  17. #917
    Resident smartass. Fargo Wolf's Avatar
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    For me, it depends on the situation and what part of town I'm in. It's extremely rare that I need to take to the sidewalk, except for a very short stretch downtown between a park and a mall parking lot.

  18. #918
    Senior Member tony_merlino's Avatar
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    Whenever I take to the sidewalk, I walk the bike. Then there's no ambiguity - for that period of time, I AM a pedestrian. Until very recently, I was very adamant about taking almost any road I wanted to. Lately, I'm wondering about that position, after a number of close calls on the same road, all within the last couple of weeks.

    The article posted earlier in this thread claimed that cyclists slowing traffic by going 20 - 25 mph slower than the speed cars would do on that road, and blocking lanes during periods of heavier traffic, contributes to road rage and drives pathological motorist behavior. I never would entertain that notion, but I'm coming to understand that there's some merit to it.

    But the answer isn't to ride on the sidewalk with the pedestrians - that just creates a whole different set of safety issues, not to mention making cycling a pretty useless way to get around. In my case, because of where I am, there are alternate routes that don't present those problems. I'm not out to push laws. But, for myself, I'm sort of developing the following set of rules of thumb - strictly as a matter of survival (mine):

    1) If the speed limit (or prevailing traffic speed) on a road is 25 mph or less, take the lane and act like a vehicle.

    2) If the speed limit is higher, ride the shoulder if there is one. Avoid taking a lane except when making a left turn, and give plenty of notice prior to doing that.

    3) On a higher speed road, if there is no shoulder, but the road is more than one lane in each direction, use the road only when traffic is light. At those times, take the right lane, since the left lane is mostly clear for passing cars.

    4) Avoid shoulderless, one lane each way higher speed roads except when traffic is VERY light.

    These are just part of a pragmatic set of survival rules that I'm developing as I ride more in my area. I've had too many incidents lately of drivers passing me with barely inches to spare, or cutting in front of me for the right hook, or just honking and cursing and wishing me dead. I think, at 59 years old, I'm finally starting to understand that my bike and I aren't going to win an argument with 3000 lbs of steel being piloted by someone who's REALLY pissed off at me for being in his/her way.
    L'asino di Buridano...

  19. #919
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stealthammer View Post
    Bicycles can be as dangerous to pedestrians as cars are to us. Sidewalks are for pedestrian traffic and tricycles. Bike trails are shared access for pedestrians and bicycles. Roads are for shared access for cars and bicycles. Simply rules. If you want to be respected on the roads, respect users of the sidewalks as well as the roads.
    too true - I read in the NY post this weekend some woman was cycling in Central park (NYC) and ran into a jogger - chipping the joggers elbow/bone

    She is now suing the jogger for causing her undue mental duress and physical illness (even though she just cam 2nd in a triathlon a couple of months later!!)

    Cases like these are not going to win and just make the rest of us who fight for being taken seriously on the roads look like tossers

  20. #920
    Senior Member Eclectus's Avatar
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    I just got hit by a car on Wednesday. I've gone down lots of times, this was the first bike/car collision in 53 years of riding, mostly on streets and roads.

    I was going to make a certain right-turn, quickly move to the left lane to turn left, but afternoon rush-hour traffic was extremely heavy. So, I elected to ride on the city-designated sidewalk/MUP trail parallel to the street. I stopped at a walk-button signal. After about a minute, it gave me the white "Walker" symbol, after the cross-traffic light turned red. I left the curb, in the crosswalk, and I got about a third the way across, I suddenly saw a car, coming opposite initially, and turning left, imminently colliding with me. (Left hook), I stood up and rolled onto its hood, rather than being smashed to the ground.

    The driver was completely at fault, legally, because pedestrians always have the right of way, along with legally-riding cycliists within a crosswalk--the law doesn't require walking a bike across the street, I was going ca. 5 mph, starting from a dead stop, if I had been a runner jogging across the street, I would have been nailed.

    The sun was low on the horizon, perhaps making it difficult for the west-to-south turner to see me. But I had a high-viz yellow jacket. I was not riding "stealth mode" in dark clothing. Arguably, street signals should have separate lights for crosswalk-crossers and cars. In this case, the driver and I got simultaneous "go" signals, which are pretty universal. f had waited for left-turners to go through, my "walk" light would have gone blinking red. So, if I waited for most cars to go through, and then went against the blinking red, and got hit, I could have been judged wrong. But I patiently stood still until I got the white "walker" signal, left the sidewalk and got smashed under a white "walk" light.

    Anyway, the driver said to the on-site police officer that he got a green light (true), made his turn normallyh legally, and didn't see me and invaded the crosswalk. Kansas has a "no fault" law. He has insurance, I don't have cyclist's insurance--it's not required here. Does he have to pay my ER medical bills and bike-damage repair, or is it, his insurance has to pay for my helmet and shoulder cracking his windshield, and my injuries and helmet bike damages are at my own expense, even though the driver broke the law, I clearly did not,and clearly drove inatentively and negligently and caused the collision, which he could have avoided by looking ahead where he was turning?

  21. #921
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    wow - sorry to hear it man - its funny after posting last week on another thread I left for work and got "doored" first time since living in NYC.

    Luckily for me the car driving behind me had time to slam on the brakes as I rolled into the road after bouncing off his door - had he been speeding I would have been run over for sure.

    Let us know how you get on with your insurance claim

  22. #922
    Senior Member rando's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tony_merlino View Post

    But the answer isn't to ride on the sidewalk with the pedestrians - that just creates a whole different set of safety issues, not to mention making cycling a pretty useless way to get around.
    nope. it depends entirely on your own location, conditions, and riding style as to whether it's "Useless" or not. I do it all the time.
    "Think of bicycles as rideable art that can just about save the world". ~Grant Petersen

    Cyclists fare best when they recognize that there are times when acting vehicularly is not the best practice, and are flexible enough to do what is necessary as the situation warrants.--Me

  23. #923
    Senior Member Eclectus's Avatar
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    I'm recovering, with back pain three weeks after the collision. For advisement FWIW, I think riding in the streets is safer. This was a case where there was extremely heavy rush hour traffic. I could have made an in-street right turn but I had to get to a left turn lane in ca. 100 feet (crossing three lanes), and in a situation where I usually did this in light, I decided, I didin't think I could. So I took the designated on-sidewalk "bike path" for 100 feet south, and took the crosswalk east-west/west-east, hitting the "walk" button to go east, waiting for north-south traffic to get a red light and I got a "walk" light, and I determined that no south-bound drivers were trying to "beat" the red light. West-bound drivers got a simultaneous green-circle light, not a left arrow light, so they were supposed to yield to straight-going west-toeast traffic, and they were supposed to see a crosswalker proceed light, rather than invade the crosswalk by turning into it.

    If the driver had ignored the walk light and blocked my passage, I might have been able to stop (and just be pissed off), but he entered the crosswalk when I was direcrtly in front of him, so his bumper took my bike out. (Left hook). I saw him just before collision, so I stood up and leaned left to go onto his hood, and then smashed his windshield with my head and shoulder, rather than being pushed down to the asphalt and being run over. I think I made the right move in this regard. But still, a car going 15 mph vs. a human body on the bike. the latter is damaged more than the driver.

    Unconsciously, I supposed that left turners would go partway into the intersection, but not invade the crosswalk. It's almost always true.

    This driver had a minimal-state-required liability insurance policy for high-risk drivers. Some people came immediately to my aid. I hope they gave favorable-to-me witness statements. My insurer is still waiting for the police report.

    One lesson I have learned is, I'm getting a Helmet-mounted video cam, so there is an indisputable record of things in the future. Cyclist safeguarding isn't here. Car-car colision safeguaring isn't either, but if I were driving my big SUV, and this guy hit me, I'd just have suffered dented metal, instead of nasty bodily injury, in addition to a ruined fork and front bike wheel, and a now-useless expensive helmet that protected my brain in smashing the car's windshield, absorbing impact by cracking. (Better the helmet than my skull and brain, I realize.)

    You have to be careful out there. You can try to make yourself visible (I always use a flashing DiNote tailight daytime, and wear bright clothing ((a vellow jacket on this occurrence)) but as effective as these measures are, the vast majority of the time, you can still be hit by inattentive drivers. In retrospect, if I had been running my headlight flasher, maybe the driver would have seen me, so I'll probably go to that in the future at all times, to give myself greater daytime visibility, even though it isn't legally required. Would the driver have seen me with my 1300-lumen headlight flashing? I don't know. But I'm feeling I want to maximize my visibility in the future, beyond what the law requires.

    At any rate, it's no fun to be on a bike and run into by a car. Cyclists lose (physically) in these events.

    Leson learned.
    Last edited by Eclectus; 12-18-11 at 05:19 AM.

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    Thanks for the update mate - let us know how you get on with the insurance company

    Nice idea on the helmet cam...any idea how much they go for?

  25. #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aussie_Al View Post
    Thanks for the update mate - let us know how you get on with the insurance company

    Nice idea on the helmet cam...any idea how much they go for?
    They range. Google POV camera (point of view camera). I have the Go Pro in the mail. $300. Shoots in 1080p and should be thoroughly awesome.

    Here's a question: How much would a video of you getting run down help? At some point in the video the car that hits you will have appeared. A lawyer could argue that you saw the car but proceeded anyways.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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