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Old 06-29-05, 07:19 PM   #176
Helmet Head
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
...staring down moving motorists who DO have the right of way?
Do you believe that at an uncontrolled intersection moving motorists have the right-of-way over pedestrians trying to cross?
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Old 06-29-05, 07:27 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Do you believe that at an uncontrolled intersection moving motorists have the right-of-way over pedestrians trying to cross?
Indeed they do in the East and Midwest. And I don't give a dang what is or is not true in California when crossing a street elsewhere. How can you be so dang unaware of the world outside of SergeWorld and still expect anyone to buy your book of idiotic statements of universal truths?
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Old 06-29-05, 11:44 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by Actuarial Spoke
Consider the limitation on bike travel on highways, where they are expressly unallowed and hence their right to travel is curtailed. I don't think that this restriction is in contradiction to the rulings above. There is an obvious safety issue.
Since the Basic Speed rule* (USA model) applies to every public way, the only reason for such a sweeping ban is to ensure that no motorist ever has to share a Fully Control Access Highway (aka freeway) with a mere cyclist.

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Uniform Vehicle Code 11-801 *Basic Speed rule
No person shall drive a vehicle at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing. Consistent with the foregoing, every person shall drive at a safe and appropriate speed when ... special hazards exist with respect to pedestrians or other traffic ...
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... there is an obvious safety issue on roads of lessor speed ...
The following advice from the NOLO legal encyclopedia applies to all roads regardless of speed:
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If someone hits you from behind, it is virtually never your fault, regardless of why you stopped. A basic rule of the road* requires a vehicle to be able to stop safely if traffic is stopped ahead of it.
In other words:

Slower drivers have no responsibility to decrease the risk of a collision with overtaking traffic by traveling faster. That's why there's no rule of the road that imposes a dynamic lower speed limit everywhere for all drivers.

Faster drivers have a responsiblity to decrease the risk of a collision with overtaken traffic by traveling slower. That's why the Basic Speed rule* imposes a dynamic upper speed limit everywhere for all drivers.

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... ask that the user not join in with the traffic unless ...
"Require" (as in require a license) and "ask" are not synonyms.
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Originally Posted by Actuarial Spoke
My ultimate interest is the safety of cyclists ...
There are more fair and effective ways (such as education and encouragment) to improve the behavior of a cyclist (who's vehicle doesn't pose an extraordinary danger to others or their property) than banishment and licensing.
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Last edited by Bruce Rosar; 06-30-05 at 01:24 AM.
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Old 06-30-05, 11:21 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Do you believe that at an uncontrolled intersection moving motorists have the right-of-way over pedestrians trying to cross?
Indeed they do in the East and Midwest. And I don't give a dang what is or is not true in California when crossing a street elsewhere. How can you be so dang unaware of the world outside of SergeWorld and still expect anyone to buy your book of idiotic statements of universal truths?
Is New York not part of the East in your mind?

You make me wonder about what might be the fantastic source of your beliefs.

This is from the NY driver's manual:

"Remember also that pedestrians legally crossing at intersections always have the right-of-way. "

Can you find a source outside of your imagination from any jurisdiction anywhere that specifies that motorists have the right-of-way over pedestrians trying to cross at intersections?
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Old 06-30-05, 11:50 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Is New York not part of the East in your mind?

You make me wonder about what might be the fantastic source of your beliefs.

This is from the NY driver's manual:

"Remember also that pedestrians legally crossing at intersections always have the right-of-way. "

Can you find a source outside of your imagination from any jurisdiction anywhere that specifies that motorists have the right-of-way over pedestrians trying to cross at intersections?
You're going to have a hard time finding anyone outside of Serge World that believes that stepping out in front of moving traffic with a steely gaze to shield them is "legally crossing" at intersections in NYC.
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Old 06-30-05, 12:44 PM   #181
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You're going to have a hard time finding anyone outside of Serge World that believes that stepping out in front of moving traffic with a steely gaze to shield them is "legally crossing" at intersections in NYC.
I never said anything about stepping out in front of moving traffic.

I simply pointed out that if a pedestrian puts one foot on the roadway at an uncontrolled intersection he has the right-of-way. Putting one foot on the roadway establishes the ped's intent to cross and his right-of-way to do so. Motorists are legally obligated to stop and let him cross.

You contend that this is not the case in the "East and Midwest", despite my reference to the NY driver's manual which supports exactly what I'm saying.

Just like you criticize VC without every bothering to learn it, you contend this nonsense without ever researching it.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about, and all you can do is blow smoke.
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Old 06-30-05, 01:10 PM   #182
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IPutting one foot on the roadway establishes the ped's intent to cross and his right-of-way to do so. Motorists are legally obligated to stop and let him cross.

BS!! Take that second step into traffic and see if ANYBODY stops. or thinks you are not deliberatly trying to cause an accident for some perverse reason. No one gives a dang how you and other make pretend lawyer wannabes interpret a dang driver's manual.
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Old 06-30-05, 01:26 PM   #183
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Originally Posted by Helmet Head
Putting one foot on the roadway establishes the ped's intent to cross and his right-of-way to do so. Motorists are legally obligated to stop and let him cross.
BS!! Take that second step into traffic and see if ANYBODY stops. or thinks you are not deliberatly trying to cause an accident for some perverse reason. No one gives a dang how you and other make pretend lawyer wannabes interpret a dang driver's manual.
Just like you criticize VC without every bothering to learn it, you contend this nonsense without ever researching it.

As usual, you have no idea what you're talking about, and all you can do is blow smoke.
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Old 07-03-05, 01:56 PM   #184
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I thought I'd weigh in with some recent experiences. I'm in Fairbanks Alaska for the summer. On some roads, the city actually requires that "all" cyclists use the sidewalk. This is a busy street, but it is no different from other city streets I have ridden in. I find this situation to be more dangerous than riding on the road. There are many blind driveways, there are other cyclists riding the opposite way on a narrow sidewalk and the surface is uneven and covered with gravel. As a result I have altered my riding, namely by slowing down, or even avoiding this route. After riding in every province in Canada and 20 or so states, I have never been mandated to ride on a sidewalk. If someone rides the same way on the sidewalk as they do on the road (in my opinion) they are opening themselves up for an accident. Now, whether that accident is a skinned knee, a broken pelvis or a head injury is up for further research.
If anyone has ridden in Vancouver, BC lately, they have bike routes throughout the city that are combined bike and car ways. Most major intersections are cyclist controlled. You can easily press the cross button while still clipped in. http://www.city.vancouver.bc.ca/engs...ing/routes.htm
I like the Vancouver model the best. In my experience it is safe and effective.
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Old 07-05-05, 09:41 PM   #185
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I have not read all 6 pages. Some comments stick out.

I'm in SD,CA. Most bikers never stop at stop signs, lights. Often travel side by side out of the bike lane. Even singles out of the lane. I really do hate most of you bikers. Sorry, but you all talk about CARS. Tip- the car will win.

Really didnt come here to flame, just frustrating.
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Old 07-05-05, 09:48 PM   #186
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I have not read all 6 pages. Some comments stick out.

I'm in SD,CA. Most bikers never stop at stop signs, lights. Often travel side by side out of the bike lane. Even singles out of the lane. I really do hate most of you bikers. Sorry, but you all talk about CARS. Tip- the car will win.

Really didnt come here to flame, just frustrating.
Oh goody! Another semi-adolescent troll.
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Old 07-05-05, 10:05 PM   #187
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Oh goody! Another semi-adolescent troll.
And what point of mine did you retort?
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Old 07-09-05, 12:02 PM   #188
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I know from the point of view of walking on the busy sidewalk that when I see a grown adult riding on the sidewalk it is annoying. Esspecially since they ride against the flow of walking traffic usually and are going much faster than those walking. I find when I am walking and a cyclist crashes past me almost knocking me over as annoying as almost getting doored when I am on my bike.

Only kids should ride on sidewalks. Adults riding on them only gives people an even worse opinion of cyclists as a whole. To me it has nothing to do with which is statistically safer for the cyclist. It is called a sideWALK.

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Old 07-09-05, 02:41 PM   #189
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Since it is a sideWALK, runners should be in the roadway too, right??? Otherwise, it would be a sideRUN (but that sounds like it would be for dogs), or perhaps a sideJOG.

Here, it is not only legal to ride a bicycle on a sidewalk, but it is the only way to get from some bike paths to the road, as there are not entrances from the curb, except many feet away at either an intersection or a driveway. You must be in an area where more people are on the sidewalks, because here almost everyone is driving, and the sideWALKs are actually almost always abandoned. It is a piece of cement, usually with nothing on it (dogs, people, bicyclists are all missing most of the time). Here, it is pretty easy to simply slow down around a person walking until past them.

On our vacation to Pittsburgh and Philadelphia, I saw bicyclists on many different walkways. In Pittsburgh, I was nearly hit by one woman, but sidestepped the bicycle as she could not steer or break effectively (you know it's a beginner when both feet are off the pedals, trying to stop by friction on the ground, and there are no hand breaks on the bicycle--it was a coaster brake bicycle). I hope she got off the hill okay.

In Philadelphia, even very sophisticated bicyclists would ride up onto the sidewalks and into small parks beside the roadway, all the time with lots of pedestrians and without incident (see photo of cyclists on the road there). But then Philadelphia has very wide walkways (15 to 20 feet at times), and is very welcoming and accomodating to bicyclists. We were there a few days before a major bicycle race through the town, and the public works people were putting grandstands into the middle of one of the main roads.

I think what is needed is awareness and tolerance on the part of all three players, pedestrians, bicyclists, and drivers. Of these, the greatest need is for driver tolerance.

John

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Old 07-09-05, 11:01 PM   #190
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Hmmmm. . .I like the idea of runners in the street. Rollerbladers too.
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Old 07-13-05, 12:06 PM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-Like-To-Bike
The question being: "what possible advantage does it <sidewalk cycling> serve?

The cyclist(s) concerned deem "it" the best choice at that time and that place for that cyclist.

Presumably such cyclists don't give a dang about WAGs and meaningless statistics about relative "risk" that are unquestioned by some individuals on Internet discussion groups
Yup. I agree with this one. I stay on the road as long as it's safer, but there are some heavily traveled and narrow streets where it's obviously safer on the sidewalk. When you find yourself on those streets, you better get on that sidewalk till you get to another street. Otherwise, it's just a matter of time before a wreckless driver gets you.
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Old 07-20-05, 10:57 PM   #192
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I have almost been hit from behind many times by other cyclists who ride on the sidewalk how laughable could that be?
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Old 07-20-05, 10:59 PM   #193
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Well, I ride on the Sidewalk becuase I don't feel comfortable on the street on my BMX and I have no MTB, and I don't exactly know how fast I am going. This is funny, I actually got pulled over by a cop, and was told it was illegal to ride in the street.
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Old 07-26-05, 08:06 AM   #194
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I don't care what your scientific reasoning is. The fact remains - If I ride in the street going down Ames Blvd, I am going to get hit. There is no two ways about it. Since there are only two or three intersecting streets on that long, narrow, hazardous boulevard, it is incredibly safer for me to take the sidewalk. The same applies for Lapalco blvd. Most other streets are safer on the shoulder of the road or in the road itself, but every street is different and your "scientific" studies are obviously not taking that into account.
And does your fact shows that you could be not the only one using that sidewalk or that drivers coming out of only two or is it three intersecting streets might be looking for a cyclist only on the road and not on the sidewalk?

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Old 07-26-05, 08:13 AM   #195
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BS!! Take that second step into traffic and see if ANYBODY stops. or thinks you are not deliberatly trying to cause an accident for some perverse reason. No one gives a dang how you and other make pretend lawyer wannabes interpret a dang driver's manual.
Rumours I heard is drivers in Netherlands do stop once you take take that second step into traffic and another rumour is the driver is charged no matter who is in the wrong.
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Old 07-26-05, 08:13 AM   #196
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BS!! Take that second step into traffic and see if ANYBODY stops. or thinks you are not deliberatly trying to cause an accident for some perverse reason. No one gives a dang how you and other make pretend lawyer wannabes interpret a dang driver's manual.
Rumours I heard is drivers in Netherlands do stop once you take take that second step into traffic and another rumour is the driver is charged no matter who is in the wrong.

So can anyone confirm the rumours are true?
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Old 07-26-05, 08:17 AM   #197
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Originally Posted by powerhouse
I have almost been hit from behind many times by other cyclists who ride on the sidewalk how laughable could that be?
And not only have I almost been hit by cyclists riding straight off the sidewalk (footpath) onto the crossing but I have seen other pedestrians almost hit by cyclist doing the same thing.

So is sidewalk riding safe especially when this happens?
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Old 07-26-05, 08:18 AM   #198
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I have lived in Finland and spent quite a bit of time in Denmark, where my family is fun. Essentially you step up to the side of the road, and (if they haven't stopped yet) you hold up your arm like you're hailing a cab. Cars screech to a halt, you cross, and you proceed. That's if you're walking, of course. Also, because of all that respect for pedestrians, people generally use crosswalks.

It's quite something to experience for an ex-Bostonian like myself. I'm used to things like filtering through traffic, jaywalking, and having cars ignore me. I got a lot of dirty looks the first few times I jaywalked in Denmark.
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Old 07-26-05, 08:23 AM   #199
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Do you believe that at an uncontrolled intersection moving motorists have the right-of-way over pedestrians trying to cross?
In Australia it is the other way around pedestrians has the right of way.
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Old 07-26-05, 08:30 AM   #200
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I think that if you are riding on the sidewalk it is safer than riding in the street. How could it not be? You are further of the road and you even have a curb to protect you, even though occasionally cars run up the curb, how many times have you seen skid marks that hit the curb and then bounce back. If you were in the street you would be dead, but if you were on the sidewalk you would have been protected. Where sidewalks become dangerous is at intersections.
And with the comments "I think that if you are riding on the sidewalk it is safer than riding in the street" did you considered or forgot about other people using the sidewalk?

Yes the pedestrians.

And by saying "but if you were on the sidewalk you would have been protected" do you think you would have a magicial field around you to protect you when you use the sidewalk?

Even those you did say "Where sidewalks become dangerous is at intersections"
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