THIS is what we as cyclists do not do, for the reason shown...
#126
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,228
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4217 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times
in
910 Posts
Quite a few people are excusing the driver. You are too with your story about scorpians which can't transcend their "nature".
The OP is much more concerned with the lack of "civility"of a particular hand gesture than by anything the driver did.
The OP is much more concerned with the lack of "civility"of a particular hand gesture than by anything the driver did.
#127
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,228
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4217 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times
in
910 Posts
The driver is being excused because, well, that gesture happens to be rude.
Go read the deranged original post. The OP credits the driver for his "restraint" and dumps on the cyclist for a few hand gestures!
Last edited by njkayaker; 05-15-15 at 10:02 AM.
#128
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
It is defending the driver when people suggest that the only reason he reacted as he did was that he had been given "The Bird".
#129
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
The parable does not defend the scorpion as I understand it, although it's become such a cliche now that people probably see it that way. It's more about the frog, and the way the world imposes limitations on morality and reason.
#130
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,228
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4217 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times
in
910 Posts
The problem is that you and others are (more than) suggesting that the violent response to a hand gesture is normal.
Flipping people off is bad because it might set-off dangerous, irresponsible, violent psychopaths.
You mean this Dave?
The scorpion is being excused, not defended (the scorpian can't "help it"). Drivers really have no excuse for violent responses (a violent response when driving means the person is a bad/incompetent driver).
Too many people here have more of a problem with the hand gesture than with the violent response to it they appear to think is "required".
Flipping people off is bad because it might set-off dangerous, irresponsible, violent psychopaths.
You mean this Dave?
Too many people here have more of a problem with the hand gesture than with the violent response to it they appear to think is "required".
Last edited by njkayaker; 05-15-15 at 10:41 AM.
#131
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
As with all road rage incidents, once you know the driver is an aggressive maniac, you're supposed to back off and do everything in your power to deescalate. If he hadn't flipped the driver off, the driver wouldn't have stopped. If he hadn't passed the motorist after he stopped (even worse of a decision IMO) and flipped him off again, he would've avoided the second confrontation.
#132
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
You can try to dance around that all day long... but there are very very few judges and juries that will agree with you... the cyclist wasn't hit, and did not wobble or go down... so as I said, technically, it was a safe pass.
#133
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,228
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4217 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times
in
910 Posts
The driver made an agressive close pass (it it's obvious that there was more than enough room to move over safely). The cyclist was already screwed.
#134
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,228
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4217 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times
in
910 Posts
Technically, it was an unsafe pass (based on the common standard of three feet) that fortunately did not have a bad consequence.
Excessive speeding is considered unsafe and it doesn't always have bad consequences. Driving drunk is considered unsafe and doesn't always have bad consequences.
That something doesn't have a bad consequence doesn't make it safe. Saying it does is just plain silly.
Your implication that we can only consider something as unsafe only when there are bad consequences is silly too.
Technically, there aren't always "bright line" differences between safe and unsafe. Technically, it's usually an issue of probabilty and risk.
.
Last edited by njkayaker; 05-15-15 at 11:01 AM.
#135
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Flipping someone off in this day and age is a bad idea. There are too many nut cases out there. It’s dangerous enough riding on the road already. Drivers are eating, texting, reading the paper, reading the ipad, putting on makeup, talking on the phone, arguing with the spouse, updating their Facebook status…. No need to add the hair trigger road rage dude into this mix.
Pure FUD and pure snopes.com.
IMO, it is my duty as a person who cycles to flip off dangerous drivers.
#137
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
Not that this happens often... but I would be careful where you aim that flipped finger... Your mileage may vary.
#138
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
Bear in mind I keep using the term "technically... " as in the cyclist wasn't hit. But take it to a judge and jury and see what they say. (I have a feeling you'll be disappointed)
Frankly I want some distance... I can't tell what the distance is in the OP... so I am not going to judge that.
#139
genec
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 27,079
Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2
Mentioned: 86 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13658 Post(s)
Liked 4,531 Times
in
3,157 Posts
You are the one doing the dancing.
Technically, it was an unsafe pass (based on the common standard of three feet) that fortunately did not have a bad consequence.
Excessive speeding is considered unsafe and it doesn't always have bad consequences. Driving drunk is considered unsafe and doesn't always have bad consequences.
That something doesn't have a bad consequence doesn't make it safe. Saying it does is just plain silly.
Your implication that we can only consider something as unsafe only when there are bad consequences is silly too.
Technically, there aren't always "bright line" differences between safe and unsafe. Technically, it's usually an issue of probabilty and risk.
.
Technically, it was an unsafe pass (based on the common standard of three feet) that fortunately did not have a bad consequence.
Excessive speeding is considered unsafe and it doesn't always have bad consequences. Driving drunk is considered unsafe and doesn't always have bad consequences.
That something doesn't have a bad consequence doesn't make it safe. Saying it does is just plain silly.
Your implication that we can only consider something as unsafe only when there are bad consequences is silly too.
Technically, there aren't always "bright line" differences between safe and unsafe. Technically, it's usually an issue of probabilty and risk.
.
#140
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Hardly pure FUD... had a girlfriend who was assaulted some 30 years ago by a motorist that had first cut her off, and she flipped him off... he stopped and started yelling at her and pushed her... she kept the bike between him and her. He eventually grabbed the bike, threw it to the sidewalk and then stomped off and drove off. This was a tiny woman BTW... so no doubt this guy was empowered by this difference in size. No witnesses... early morning thing. Nothing was really damaged... just scratched paint.
And I know a family member who had a friend of a friend of a friend who died from cyanide laced tylenol.
Not that this happens often... but I would be careful where you aim that flipped finger... Your mileage may vary.
#141
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Because you are essentially saying that flipping the bird was the reason the driver turned aggressive. If the biker had done nothing, then nothing more would have happened. The problem, is that you have no way of knowing that. Like I've said, I've had "encounters" with drivers simply for being on their road and forcing them to maybe slow down and/or be delayed for 15 seconds. To suggest that the biker in anyway escalated the situation is to imply that the driver would have behaved differently had the biker showed more restraint. Most of us who have ridden bikes for any period of time know that that is often not the case at all.
Again, you don't know this. Regardless, I think the biker did the right thing by simply going out and around the truck. He didn't stop (which could have been interpreted as wanting to fight, since according to some people here, he already "consented" to a fight by flipping him off), and he didn't gesture...he simply went out and around. I mean, there's no way I would have stopped out in the middle of nowhere either. For I know it could have been big, bad Dave Cutter behind the wheel...and he has admitted already that he'd happily commit assault and battery if someone dared to give him the finger.
The cyclist only flipped him off again AFTER the motorist buzzed by him for a second time...faster and closer, I might add.
The cyclist only flipped him off again AFTER the motorist buzzed by him for a second time...faster and closer, I might add.
#142
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#143
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Far beyond the pale horizon.
Posts: 14,228
Mentioned: 31 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4217 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times
in
910 Posts
So, you consider even actually hitting someome as "safe".
States that don't have three-foot laws use no standard.
For the states that do (and what is otherwise recommended for a specific distance), three feet is clearly the common standard. A few (one?) specify a four foot distance. (The four foot distance makes your "safe" argument more silly.)
21 US states have 3 foot (meter) laws. As a law, it's common. Some European countries do as well.
https://bicyclensw.org.au/advocacy/ca...sing-distance/
And Georgia (where, it seems, the incident in the OP occurred) has a three foot law.
The notion that the pass was "safe" merely because he was lucky not to have been hit is dopey.
It's as dopey as basing what distance to pass, through telepathy, I guess, on the "nerves" of a particular cyclist.
There was good no reason for that driver to have passed as close as he did. In Georgia it was illegal.
States that don't have three-foot laws use no standard.
For the states that do (and what is otherwise recommended for a specific distance), three feet is clearly the common standard. A few (one?) specify a four foot distance. (The four foot distance makes your "safe" argument more silly.)
21 US states have 3 foot (meter) laws. As a law, it's common. Some European countries do as well.
https://bicyclensw.org.au/advocacy/ca...sing-distance/
And Georgia (where, it seems, the incident in the OP occurred) has a three foot law.
The notion that the pass was "safe" merely because he was lucky not to have been hit is dopey.
It's as dopey as basing what distance to pass, through telepathy, I guess, on the "nerves" of a particular cyclist.
There was good no reason for that driver to have passed as close as he did. In Georgia it was illegal.
Last edited by njkayaker; 05-15-15 at 12:34 PM.
#144
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Bellevue, WA
Posts: 1,606
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
Because you are essentially saying that flipping the bird was the reason the driver turned aggressive. If the biker had done nothing, then nothing more would have happened. The problem, is that you have no way of knowing that. Like I've said, I've had "encounters" with drivers simply for being on their road and forcing them to maybe slow down and/or be delayed for 15 seconds. To suggest that the biker in anyway escalated the situation is to imply that the driver would have behaved differently had the biker showed more restraint. Most of us who have ridden bikes for any period of time know that that is often not the case at all.
You're right, I never flip people off and have found myself in an "encounter" or two in tens of thousands of miles of riding. The difference is, they never escalate.
Again, you don't know this. Regardless, I think the biker did the right thing by simply going out and around the truck. He didn't stop
(which could have been interpreted as wanting to fight, since according to some people here, he already "consented" to a fight by flipping him off), and he didn't gesture...he simply went out and around. I mean, there's no way I would have stopped out in the middle of nowhere either. For I know it could have been big, bad Dave Cutter behind the wheel...and he has admitted already that he'd happily commit assault and battery if someone dared to give him the finger.
(which could have been interpreted as wanting to fight, since according to some people here, he already "consented" to a fight by flipping him off), and he didn't gesture...he simply went out and around. I mean, there's no way I would have stopped out in the middle of nowhere either. For I know it could have been big, bad Dave Cutter behind the wheel...and he has admitted already that he'd happily commit assault and battery if someone dared to give him the finger.
And this is exactly why passing was a really, really bad idea. He already buzzed you aggressively, why give him a second chance??
#145
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,688
Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 672 Post(s)
Liked 410 Times
in
244 Posts
What did he accomplish by waving the bird multiple times? Did he imnprove conditions for himself or other riders? Did he educate the driver? Did he get cosmic retribution?
BB
__________________
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton
#146
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
If he's that nuts, what makes you think he simply won't turn his vehicle around and come after you anyway?
#147
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Well...he did end up getting an aggressive driver arrested...a driver whom we all hope WILL get a substantial fine and, with hope, some community service tacked on as a part of his punishment. So there's that, ya know.
#148
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Kent Wa.
Posts: 5,332
Bikes: 2005 Gazelle Golfo, 1935 Raleigh Sport, 1970 Robin Hood sport, 1974 Schwinn Continental, 1984 Ross MTB/porteur, 2013 Flying Piegon path racer, 2014 Gazelle Toer Populair T8
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 396 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 8 Times
in
7 Posts
Speak for yourself, I've had 3 physical confrontations due to flipping people off. I'm ashamed of my lack of self control, and now work hard at being a better person.
#149
Member
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 42
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I honestly try not to flip off drivers anymore. But I also try to do nothing whatsoever once they go by. I think most any action will result in a confrontation with some drivers. It is difficult sometimes, to simply keep my head down and continue on as if nothing happened.. One thing I found that does sometimes work, though, is to wave and say "SORRY" before they actually get by and have a chance to "express" their anger. I start my wave when I feel them coming out and around, and I look over and mouth the word "SORRY" before they have a chance to do whatever it was they wanted to do. Sometimes it throws them for such a loop that they actually wave back. It's sorta funny, in a strange way.
#150
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: D'uh... I am a Cutter
Posts: 6,159
Bikes: '17 Access Old Turnpike Gravel bike, '14 Trek 1.1, '13 Cannondale CAAD 10, '98 CAD 2, R300
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1571 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 12 Times
in
9 Posts
I am not perfect. I don't live in a perfect world. But.... at least I don't go out starting trouble by flipping people obscene gestures (and calling it free speech) and I am NOT afraid of traffic. I get along VERY WELL in this rough-around-the-edges world.
But don't worry. If... after you "express yourself with free speech" and some one wants "break the law".... just throw your smile in front of his/her fist.... your teeth will stop the punch. Then reach into your saddle bag and get out your law books and wave those around.
Last edited by Dave Cutter; 05-15-15 at 01:37 PM.