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THIS is what we as cyclists do not do, for the reason shown...

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THIS is what we as cyclists do not do, for the reason shown...

Old 05-15-15, 09:49 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
No one here is defending the driver.
Quite a few people are ​excusing the driver. You are too with your story about scorpians which can't transcend their "nature".

The OP is much more concerned with the lack of "civility"of a particular hand gesture than by anything the driver did.
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Old 05-15-15, 09:53 AM
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Originally Posted by bbbean
It isn't "defending the motorist" to note that rude, offensive, defiant, and/or obscene gestures do nothing to improve the situation and frequently exacerbate an already bad situation. If you want to express your anger, pedal harder.
Many people here keep claiming that violence is a natural, unavoidable consequence of a common hand gesture.

The driver is being excused because, well, that gesture happens to be ​rude.

Go read the deranged original post. The OP credits the driver for his "restraint" and dumps on the cyclist for a few hand gestures!

Originally Posted by Rollfast
The man who assaulted him could have done much worse. I can credit him for restraining his anger at least even though I didn't care for his response.

Last edited by njkayaker; 05-15-15 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 05-15-15, 09:54 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by bbbean
It isn't "defending the motorist" to note that rude, offensive, defiant, and/or obscene gestures do nothing to improve the situation and frequently exacerbate an already bad situation. If you want to express your anger, pedal harder.
It is defending the driver when people suggest that the only reason he reacted as he did was that he had been given "The Bird".
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Old 05-15-15, 10:01 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Quite a few people are ​excusing the driver. You are too with your story about scorpians which can't transcend their "nature".

The OP is much more concerned with the lack of "civility"of a particular hand gesture than by anything the driver did.
OP is wrong IMO, but you guys are misreading Dave and me.

The parable does not defend the scorpion as I understand it, although it's become such a cliche now that people probably see it that way. It's more about the frog, and the way the world imposes limitations on morality and reason.
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Old 05-15-15, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by wphamilton
OP is wrong IMO, but you guys are misreading Dave and me.
The problem is that you and others are (more than) suggesting that the violent response to a hand gesture is normal.

Flipping people off is bad because it might set-off dangerous, irresponsible, violent psychopaths.

You mean this Dave?

Originally Posted by Dave Cutter
OH HELL YES!!! I am an old retired senior (and an avid cyclist).... but you flip me off and I am very likely to stop my truck (SUV, or car) to see if you really do want to test this old guy.
Originally Posted by wphamilton
The parable does not defend the scorpion as I understand it, although it's become such a cliche now that people probably see it that way. It's more about the frog, and the way the world imposes limitations on morality and reason.
The scorpion is being excused, not defended (the scorpian can't "help it"). Drivers really have no excuse for violent responses (a violent response when driving means the person is a bad/incompetent driver).

Too many people here have more of a problem with the hand gesture than with the violent response to it they appear to think is "required".

Last edited by njkayaker; 05-15-15 at 10:41 AM.
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Old 05-15-15, 10:16 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by FliesOnly1
It is defending the driver when people suggest that the only reason he reacted as he did was that he had been given "The Bird".
How is that defending the driver? Obviously, the confrontation could have been escalated in other ways (kicking the truck, yelling, what have you). And the driver obviously is crazy and has anger issues, which is exactly why you shouldn't​ flip him off.

As with all road rage incidents, once you know the driver is an aggressive maniac, you're supposed to back off and do everything in your power to deescalate. If he hadn't flipped the driver off, the driver wouldn't have stopped. If he hadn't passed the motorist after he stopped (even worse of a decision IMO) and flipped him off again, he would've avoided the second confrontation.
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Old 05-15-15, 10:42 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
No, safe doesn't mean no contact. Not legally. People get tickets for unsafe passing (without any contact) fairly regularly.

Safe or unsafe relates to risk (not certainty). Technically.
You can try to dance around that all day long... but there are very very few judges and juries that will agree with you... the cyclist wasn't hit, and did not wobble or go down... so as I said, technically, it was a safe pass.
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Old 05-15-15, 10:50 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by degnaw
How is that defending the driver? Obviously, the confrontation could have been escalated in other ways (kicking the truck, yelling, what have you). And the driver obviously is crazy and has anger issues, which is exactly why you shouldn't​ flip him off.
Who else other than you and me have been clear that the driver is "crazy and has anger issues"? Lots of people are suggesting that the violent response is normal! The OP "credits" the driver's restraint. Go back and read it (it's really over the top).

Originally Posted by degnaw
As with all road rage incidents, once you know the driver is an aggressive maniac, you're supposed to back off and do everything in your power to deescalate.
Don't disagree with that.

Originally Posted by degnaw
If he hadn't flipped the driver off, the driver wouldn't have stopped.
The driver made an agressive close pass (it it's obvious that there was more than enough room to move over safely). The cyclist was already screwed.
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Old 05-15-15, 10:54 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by genec
You can try to dance around that all day long... but there are very very few judges and juries that will agree with you... the cyclist wasn't hit, and did not wobble or go down... so as I said, technically, it was a safe pass.
You are the one doing the dancing.

Technically, it was an unsafe pass (based on the common standard of three feet) that fortunately did not have a bad consequence.

Excessive speeding is considered unsafe and it doesn't always have bad consequences. Driving drunk is considered unsafe and doesn't always have bad consequences.

That something doesn't have a bad consequence doesn't make it safe. Saying it does is just plain silly.

Your implication that we can only consider something as unsafe only when there are bad consequences is silly too.

Technically, there aren't always "bright line" differences between safe and unsafe. Technically, it's usually an issue of probabilty and risk.

.

Last edited by njkayaker; 05-15-15 at 11:01 AM.
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Old 05-15-15, 10:54 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by Wingsprint
Flipping someone off in this day and age is a bad idea. There are too many nut cases out there. It’s dangerous enough riding on the road already. Drivers are eating, texting, reading the paper, reading the ipad, putting on makeup, talking on the phone, arguing with the spouse, updating their Facebook status…. No need to add the hair trigger road rage dude into this mix.
The idea that flipping off motorized couch riders is dangerous is the equivalent of razor blade in candy apple mytholgy.
Pure FUD and pure snopes.com.

IMO, it is my duty as a person who cycles to flip off dangerous drivers.
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Old 05-15-15, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
You can try to dance around that all day long... but there are very very few judges and juries that will agree with you... the cyclist wasn't hit, and did not wobble or go down... so as I said, technically, it was a safe pass.
According to this absolutely insane logic someone firing a firearm at someone and missing is "technically" safe firearm handling.
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Old 05-15-15, 10:59 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
The idea that flipping off motorized couch riders is dangerous is the equivalent of razor blade in candy apple mytholgy.
Pure FUD and pure snopes.com.

IMO, it is my duty as a person who cycles to flip off dangerous drivers.
Hardly pure FUD... had a girlfriend who was assaulted some 30 years ago by a motorist that had first cut her off, and she flipped him off... he stopped and started yelling at her and pushed her... she kept the bike between him and her. He eventually grabbed the bike, threw it to the sidewalk and then stomped off and drove off. This was a tiny woman BTW... so no doubt this guy was empowered by this difference in size. No witnesses... early morning thing. Nothing was really damaged... just scratched paint.

Not that this happens often... but I would be careful where you aim that flipped finger... Your mileage may vary.
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Old 05-15-15, 11:02 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel
According to this absolutely insane logic someone firing a firearm at someone and missing is "technically" safe firearm handling.
Worked for Cheney.

Bear in mind I keep using the term "technically... " as in the cyclist wasn't hit. But take it to a judge and jury and see what they say. (I have a feeling you'll be disappointed)

Frankly I want some distance... I can't tell what the distance is in the OP... so I am not going to judge that.
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Old 05-15-15, 11:04 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
You are the one doing the dancing.

Technically, it was an unsafe pass (based on the common standard of three feet) that fortunately did not have a bad consequence.

Excessive speeding is considered unsafe and it doesn't always have bad consequences. Driving drunk is considered unsafe and doesn't always have bad consequences.

That something doesn't have a bad consequence doesn't make it safe. Saying it does is just plain silly.

Your implication that we can only consider something as unsafe only when there are bad consequences is silly too.

Technically, there aren't always "bright line" differences between safe and unsafe. Technically, it's usually an issue of probabilty and risk.

.
There is no such common standard... if there were, states would not have to pass "3 foot laws."
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Old 05-15-15, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by genec
Hardly pure FUD... had a girlfriend who was assaulted some 30 years ago by a motorist that had first cut her off, and she flipped him off... he stopped and started yelling at her and pushed her... she kept the bike between him and her. He eventually grabbed the bike, threw it to the sidewalk and then stomped off and drove off. This was a tiny woman BTW... so no doubt this guy was empowered by this difference in size. No witnesses... early morning thing. Nothing was really damaged... just scratched paint.


And I know a family member who had a friend of a friend of a friend who died from cyanide laced tylenol.

Not that this happens often... but I would be careful where you aim that flipped finger... Your mileage may vary.
I've flipped off many hundreds of motorists without being menaced, assaulted, or shot at.
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Old 05-15-15, 12:00 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by degnaw
How is that defending the driver?
Because you are essentially saying that flipping the bird was the reason the driver turned aggressive. If the biker had done nothing, then nothing more would have happened. The problem, is that you have no way of knowing that. Like I've said, I've had "encounters" with drivers simply for being on their road and forcing them to maybe slow down and/or be delayed for 15 seconds. To suggest that the biker in anyway escalated the situation is to imply that the driver would have behaved differently had the biker showed more restraint. Most of us who have ridden bikes for any period of time know that that is often not the case at all.

Originally Posted by degnaw
As with all road rage incidents, once you know the driver is an aggressive maniac, you're supposed to back off and do everything in your power to deescalate. If he hadn't flipped the driver off, the driver wouldn't have stopped
Again, you don't know this. Regardless, I think the biker did the right thing by simply going out and around the truck. He didn't stop (which could have been interpreted as wanting to fight, since according to some people here, he already "consented" to a fight by flipping him off), and he didn't gesture...he simply went out and around. I mean, there's no way I would have stopped out in the middle of nowhere either. For I know it could have been big, bad Dave Cutter behind the wheel...and he has admitted already that he'd happily commit assault and battery if someone dared to give him the finger.

Originally Posted by degnaw
If he hadn't passed the motorist after he stopped (even worse of a decision IMO) and flipped him off again, he would've avoided the second confrontation.
The cyclist only flipped him off again AFTER the motorist buzzed by him for a second time...faster and closer, I might add.
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Old 05-15-15, 12:04 PM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by genec
Worked for Cheney.
Not really. Cheney technically hit his "target" and then that guy actually apologized for getting his face in the way of Cheney's blast...which is even more awesome!!! Talk about power!!
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Old 05-15-15, 12:16 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by genec
Worked for Cheney.
So, you consider even actually hitting someome as "safe".

Originally Posted by genec
There is no such common standard... if there were, states would not have to pass "3 foot laws."


States that don't have three-foot laws use no standard.

For the states that do (and what is otherwise recommended for a specific distance), three feet is clearly the common standard. A few (one?) specify a four foot distance. (The four foot distance makes your "safe" argument more silly.)

21 US states have 3 foot (meter) laws. As a law, it's common. Some European countries do as well.

https://bicyclensw.org.au/advocacy/ca...sing-distance/

And Georgia (where, it seems, the incident in the OP occurred) has a three foot law.

The notion that the pass was "safe" merely because he was lucky not to have been hit is dopey.

It's as dopey as basing what distance to pass, through telepathy, I guess, on the "nerves" of a particular cyclist.

There was good no reason for that driver to have passed as close as he did. In Georgia it was illegal.

Last edited by njkayaker; 05-15-15 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 05-15-15, 12:24 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by FliesOnly1
Because you are essentially saying that flipping the bird was the reason the driver turned aggressive. If the biker had done nothing, then nothing more would have happened. The problem, is that you have no way of knowing that. Like I've said, I've had "encounters" with drivers simply for being on their road and forcing them to maybe slow down and/or be delayed for 15 seconds. To suggest that the biker in anyway escalated the situation is to imply that the driver would have behaved differently had the biker showed more restraint. Most of us who have ridden bikes for any period of time know that that is often not the case at all.
The driver clearly stopped after the cyclist flipped him off. Are you suggesting that flipping someone off, kicking their car, yelling at them, etc is not going to change their behavior in any way?

You're right, I never flip people off and have found myself in an "encounter" or two in tens of thousands of miles of riding. The difference is, they never escalate.

Originally Posted by FliesOnly1
Again, you don't know this. Regardless, I think the biker did the right thing by simply going out and around the truck. He didn't stop
(which could have been interpreted as wanting to fight, since according to some people here, he already "consented" to a fight by flipping him off), and he didn't gesture...he simply went out and around. I mean, there's no way I would have stopped out in the middle of nowhere either. For I know it could have been big, bad Dave Cutter behind the wheel...and he has admitted already that he'd happily commit assault and battery if someone dared to give him the finger.
The right thing is to stop immediately, i.e. 40-50 feet behind the truck, and make a U-turn if he starts to approach you.

Originally Posted by FliesOnly1
The cyclist only flipped him off again AFTER the motorist buzzed by him for a second time...faster and closer, I might add.
And this is exactly why passing was a really, really bad idea. He already buzzed you aggressively, why give him a second chance??
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Old 05-15-15, 12:58 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by FliesOnly1
It is defending the driver when people suggest that the only reason he reacted as he did was that he had been given "The Bird".
No one said that was the "only" reason. Several have said that the gesture exacerbated a bad situation.

What did he accomplish by waving the bird multiple times? Did he imnprove conditions for himself or other riders? Did he educate the driver? Did he get cosmic retribution?

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Old 05-15-15, 01:07 PM
  #146  
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Originally Posted by degnaw
The driver clearly stopped after the cyclist flipped him off. Are you suggesting that flipping someone off, kicking their car, yelling at them, etc is not going to change their behavior in any way?
Nope. What I'm saying is that waving at the driver...smiling at the driver...or even giving the now the now infamous "wtf shoulder shrug" to the driver might very well have resulted in the exact same result (i.e. the driver stopping).

Originally Posted by degnaw
You're right, I never flip people off and have found myself in an "encounter" or two in tens of thousands of miles of riding. The difference is, they never escalate.
I guess it depends on what you mean by escalate. I've had a couple experiences where me simply catching up to them at a stop sign led to them once again going off on me...even though I said and did nothing during the original encounter.



Originally Posted by degnaw
The right thing is to stop immediately, i.e. 40-50 feet behind the truck, and make a U-turn if he starts to approach you.
I'm not sure I agree with you. For me, it would depend on what lay ahead versus what lies behind.



Originally Posted by degnaw
And this is exactly why passing was a really, really bad idea. He already buzzed you aggressively, why give him a second chance??
If he's that nuts, what makes you think he simply won't turn his vehicle around and come after you anyway?
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Old 05-15-15, 01:12 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by bbbean
No one said that was the "only" reason. Several have said that the gesture exacerbated a bad situation.
My response is mainly for those who say it's better to wave or smile or sit up and give the "wtf shoulder shrug". I'm only saying that if the driver is already pissed off (and I believe that this one was) then doing anything...or maybe even doing nothing...may lead to the same reaction from the driver.

Originally Posted by bbbean
What did he accomplish by waving the bird multiple times? Did he imnprove conditions for himself or other riders? Did he educate the driver? Did he get cosmic retribution?

BB
Well...he did end up getting an aggressive driver arrested...a driver whom we all hope WILL get a substantial fine and, with hope, some community service tacked on as a part of his punishment. So there's that, ya know.
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Old 05-15-15, 01:14 PM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by spare_wheel


And I know a family member who had a friend of a friend of a friend who died from cyanide laced tylenol.



I've flipped off many hundreds of motorists without being menaced, assaulted, or shot at.
Speak for yourself, I've had 3 physical confrontations due to flipping people off. I'm ashamed of my lack of self control, and now work hard at being a better person.
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Old 05-15-15, 01:29 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by kickstart
Speak for yourself, I've had 3 physical confrontations due to flipping people off. I'm ashamed of my lack of self control, and now work hard at being a better person.
I honestly try not to flip off drivers anymore. But I also try to do nothing whatsoever once they go by. I think most any action will result in a confrontation with some drivers. It is difficult sometimes, to simply keep my head down and continue on as if nothing happened.. One thing I found that does sometimes work, though, is to wave and say "SORRY" before they actually get by and have a chance to "express" their anger. I start my wave when I feel them coming out and around, and I look over and mouth the word "SORRY" before they have a chance to do whatever it was they wanted to do. Sometimes it throws them for such a loop that they actually wave back. It's sorta funny, in a strange way.
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Old 05-15-15, 01:33 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
........ If it was Dave Cutter in the truck, one flip would have produced a "confrontation".
Flipping some one off IS a confrontation.

I am not perfect. I don't live in a perfect world. But.... at least I don't go out starting trouble by flipping people obscene gestures (and calling it free speech) and I am NOT afraid of traffic. I get along VERY WELL in this rough-around-the-edges world.

But don't worry. If... after you "express yourself with free speech" and some one wants "break the law".... just throw your smile in front of his/her fist.... your teeth will stop the punch. Then reach into your saddle bag and get out your law books and wave those around.

Last edited by Dave Cutter; 05-15-15 at 01:37 PM.
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