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Cyclist on sidewalk runs over a little girl video)

Old 05-24-15, 03:59 PM
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Agree. The riding on the sidewalk is the problem. If you're going to run over little girls, don't do it on the sidewalk.
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Old 05-24-15, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
Unfortunately this isn't true. The US, like Canada where I live is a hodgepodge of jurisdictions. There are multiple state/provincial and municipal regulations, some of which permit riding on sidewalks in some areas
This I do partially agree, as certain areas are combined foot/bike paths. The difference is a residential sidewalk in ANY AREA is off limits to a bike. The exception being a child riding on it.

It's different in certain places in Canada, as the area my wife's cousin lives in (somewhere in Ontario) the sidewalks are where the bikes are delegated to be on. The traffic is too crazy there. But a cyclist slows down when in a residential area, so pedestrians aren't injured, and the pedestrian has the right of way.

Do you notice a common denominator here? Caution when in an area where foot traffic is more prevalent? In NY a pedestrian ALWAYS has the right of way,...and in a residential neighborhood anyone riding on a sidewalk at a high rate of speed and being as careless as this guy was is a JACKASS!!!
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Old 05-24-15, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
Ran this by an insurance adjuster here locally and he said that he discussed it with one other and a crash investigator. He said that fault would be 50:50 or no fault found (based on U.S. law). Their reasoning is that the little girl running out from behind the wall could have just as easily had a similar result with almost any normal and expected use of the sidewalk. That if she had run out like that in front of someone walking that the walker could easily have not had time to react and either kicked her with a normal walking gait or tripped over her likely causing greater injury than she sustained from the bicycle rider. Similar for someone pushing a stroller, jogging, jogging with a stroller or any other number of normal and expected uses. The speed of the bicycle rider was immaterial as no speed would be slow enough to have provided adequate reaction time given how quickly the girl suddenly appeared.

If it were fought out in court it could easily go against the parents for not paying proper attention to their child in a dangerous area. OTOH, if the child were on the sidewalk and jumping around erratically side to side but she and her actions were visible to other users of the sidewalk then the other users would likely be at fault.
Yeah, the insurance "adjuster" would see it like that, so it would look like they were doing their job...... But the insurance company would write a VERY BIG CHECK, hoping to make this go away. And, the courts would do even worse!

Adjusters try to minimize exposure for the company, without regard to actual blame!

MHO
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Old 05-24-15, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by tds101
This I do partially agree, as certain areas are combined foot/bike paths. The difference is a residential sidewalk in ANY AREA is off limits to a bike. The exception being a child riding on it.

It's different in certain places in Canada, as the area my wife's cousin lives in (somewhere in Ontario) the sidewalks are where the bikes are delegated to be on. The traffic is too crazy there. But a cyclist slows down when in a residential area, so pedestrians aren't injured, and the pedestrian has the right of way.

Do you notice a common denominator here? Caution when in an area where foot traffic is more prevalent? In NY a pedestrian ALWAYS has the right of way,...and in a residential neighborhood anyone riding on a sidewalk at a high rate of speed and being as careless as this guy was is a JACKASS!!!

Again not true. As this previously cited article shows:
Legal to Ride a Bike on a Sidewalk? - Law and Daily Life
Statutes vary widely all over the US and in many states cities have wide discretion. In Canada by contrast, within provinces things are much more uniform and cities have much less discretion. Laws do vary somewhat from province to province. There is nowhere in Ontario where bicycles are delegated to sidewalks, that is false. There may be urban areas where cyclists are bullied by drivers but the law is clear, bicycles are not only allowed on the road, most places they are supposed to be there

Last edited by alcjphil; 05-24-15 at 06:32 PM.
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Old 05-24-15, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
Again not true. As this previously cited article shows:
Legal to Ride a Bike on a Sidewalk? - Law and Daily Life
Statutes vary widely all over the US and in many states cities have wide discretion. In Canada by contrast, within provinces things are much more uniform and cities have much less discretion. Laws do vary somewhat from province to province. There is nowhere in Ontario where bicycles are delegated to sidewalks, that is false. There may be urban areas where cyclists are bullied by drivers but the law is clear, bicycles are not only allowed on the road, most places they are supposed to be there
Like I SAID,...I partially agree with you. I do understand the laws vary according to state jurisdictions. But the norm is most areas here in the USA it's illegal to ride on the sidewalk if your an ADULT. Canada, I might be incorrect. And by "delegated" I meant ALLOWED. I guess I should be more specific with some people. It seems you've decided to play the semantics game.

The point is a bicyclist is supposed to yield to pedestrians. A child isn't supposed to worry about being hit on a sidewalk in a residential neighborhood. The bike rider in question was a jackass. And if it happened to my child again, and the cyclist did to me what he did (when it's ILLEGAL to ride a bike on the sidewalk here in NY), if I didn't beat his A## I'd have him arrested. And he wouldn't leave until the police arrived. Simple as that.

Either way you look at it, this JACKASS was in the wrong.
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Old 05-24-15, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by CoachManny
Yes side"walks" should be for pedestrians walking and the roads are for cars and cyclists. Which is why they say we are to follow the same rules as cars.

I always think it's funny when cars yell at me and tell me to get on the side"walk".

In my mind... it's a side "walk". Not a side "ride".

Manny
Ditto!!
Originally Posted by tds101
If a cyclist rides on the sidewalk and hits a pedestrian, in the usa, the cyclist is 100% responsible. It's against the law for an adult to ride a bike on the sidewalk in the USA.
In my locale:
State-No, But allows the counties to disagree
County-Yes, But allows the cities to disagree
City-The city nearest me says no. But the city just south of me says, yes.
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Old 05-25-15, 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
I doubt the accident investigator was apprised of all the facts. I believe that even in the US if the cyclist had been riding on a sidewalk in a jurisdiction where it was illegal he would have been judged to be totally at fault

Originally Posted by tds101
If a cyclist rides on the sidewalk and hits a pedestrian, in the usa, the cyclist is 100% responsible. It's against the law for an adult to ride a bike on the sidewalk in the USA.
Sigh of relief
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Old 05-25-15, 07:00 AM
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Even if the cyclist was in the wrong, it is still the parents' responsibility to watch out for their children. These two parents were not doing that. The mom was more concerned with whatever she was doing in the car, and dad was nowhere to be seen in the scene until it was too late.
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Old 05-25-15, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by baron von trail
Even if the cyclist was in the wrong, it is still the parents' responsibility to watch out for their children. These two parents were not doing that. The mom was more concerned with whatever she was doing in the car, and dad was nowhere to be seen in the scene until it was too late.
Get over it. The cyclist wasn't even supposed to be there, and certainly not riding at that sort of speed. The parents are not in any way at fault. Really this blaming the victim stuff infuriates me
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Old 05-25-15, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by keyven
Ridiculous, ignorant statement.

Sounds like you're the type that would put your kid on a short leash - literally speaking - just so you're "protecting him/her" 100.0% of the time. Where did we get this stupid expectation of parents as "omnipotent blame magnets"?

As if parenting wasn't stressful enough already, we'd be looking up and down and left and right 24/7 in case something as random as an irresponsible speeding cyclist came along. Umbrella parenting was probably born of this idiotic idea that parents "shoulda coulda woulda" done something if an accident that had a 1% chance of happening, happened. Why not check the sky for falling meteorites too?
I see kids doing stupid dangerous stuff all the time while parents are distracted. It's common on the MUP, where kids pedal or walk into the path of cyclists regularly, especially on weekends. I guess in your world the rest of us need to be the ones who are ever vigilant since parents aren't.

I'm used to ****ty parents, and act accordingly around children. I'm just sick of them and being the one who has to be vigilant.
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Old 05-25-15, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by baron von trail
I see kids doing stupid dangerous stuff all the time while parents are distracted. It's common on the MUP, where kids pedal or walk into the path of cyclists regularly, especially on weekends. I guess in your world the rest of us need to be the ones who are ever vigilant since parents aren't.

I'm used to ****ty parents, and act accordingly around children. I'm just sick of them and being the one who has to be vigilant.
This incident did not happen on a MUP. This was a residential sidewalk where in the UK cyclists are not permitted under any circumstances. the parents were not doing anything wrong. The only person at fault here was the cyclist
If you are sick of having to be vigilant, stop riding on MUP's, because no matter what, if you ride on them you have to be

Last edited by alcjphil; 05-25-15 at 07:30 AM.
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Old 05-25-15, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by baron von trail
I see kids doing stupid dangerous stuff all the time while parents are distracted. It's common on the MUP, where kids pedal or walk into the path of cyclists regularly, especially on weekends. I guess in your world the rest of us need to be the ones who are ever vigilant since parents aren't.

I'm used to ****ty parents, and act accordingly around children. I'm just sick of them and being the one who has to be vigilant.
Have you ever tripped over your own foot? Made a careless mistake? Had a brain fart? Dropped something by accident? Walked into somebody?

If someone had taken a video of you doing that and posted it up, should we all assume you must be an irresponsible, clumsy fool? Or is it merely part of being human? And if you can't even take care of arguably the most important person in your life - yourself - without making mistakes from time to time, what right do you have to expect a parent to be able to take care of TWO people without foreseeing every possibility or ever making a mistake?

There are most certainly crappy or lazy or uncaring parents around, but accusing this particular one who is in no way linked to your personal experience is frighteningly ignorant. It's this kind of attitude that fuels racism and sexism and drivers who hate cyclists based on the actions of a suicidal minority.

Last edited by keyven; 05-25-15 at 07:38 AM.
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Old 05-25-15, 08:41 AM
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If the child had been in the sidewalk/pavement for some period (5 seconds even?) prior to the incident then the fault would have been with the bicycle rider. That the child appeared so suddenly from behind a wall that even someone walking would not have had time to respond shifts the responsibility to the child and thus ultimately to the parents.

Consider, if you had been walking along here and the child suddenly appeared in front of you, you tripped over the child and injured her, and the parents sued you for damages.

These walls with narrow gates are very common throughout the UK. We had a place in St Andrews for 3 years with a very similar wall. When you were leaving you stopped at the gate and looked prior to continuing lest you have a collision with someone walking. And I'd guess that one out of ten times you looked there was someone that you would have collided with. You didn't just go barging out on to the pavement. Parents would teach their children this as well but until their children were old enough to do this on their own parents would watch them to prevent a similar incident. Once on the pavement/sidewalk children can have considerable more freedom since they can now be seen by other users.

This child did a free fall that looked quite horrendous. Consider though had she been tripped over by someone walking and instead had 250 pounds of flesh forcing her to the pavement?

As to the various feelings towards the cyclist. We know none of the circumstances surrounding this incident. We don't know how fast he was moving (the video includes only every second, third, or forth frame so no way to know speed without re-interlacing). We don't know what happened prior to this. Did he live two doors down and had just been beaten and threatened by his step-dad and was trying to get away to safety? Did he begin to apologize and come back to help the little girl but the girl's dad told him that he'd kill him?
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Old 05-25-15, 09:00 AM
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As to riding on sidewalks. Millions of people do it every day. In our suburbs I'd guess two out of three people riding are doing so, quite rationally, on the sidewalk not on the adjacent 50 mph road (and if they were prevented from doing so they would likely not ride at all). If it is so horrible then why are there not large numbers of pedestrian deaths from it? One or two in 10 years is not a problem (relative to over 50,000 pedestrians and 9,000 bicycle riders killed by cars over the same period). One child being injured (apparently mildly) by an errant bicycle rider does not make a case. Over 700 bicycle riders killed and 1,500 critically injured by cars every year does.

Further, the thousands of bicycle riders killed are overwhelming those who are riding in the roadway not on a sidewalk or riding from a sidewalk onto a roadway.

Until we have proper bikeways, riding (safely and at a reasonable speed for the conditions) on a sidewalk is much safer for bicycle riders and is not a danger to others.
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Old 05-25-15, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
If the child had been in the sidewalk/pavement for some period (5 seconds even?) prior to the incident then the fault would have been with the bicycle rider. That the child appeared so suddenly from behind a wall that even someone walking would not have had time to respond shifts the responsibility to the child and thus ultimately to the parents.

Consider, if you had been walking along here and the child suddenly appeared in front of you, you tripped over the child and injured her, and the parents sued you for damages.

These walls with narrow gates are very common throughout the UK. We had a place in St Andrews for 3 years with a very similar wall. When you were leaving you stopped at the gate and looked prior to continuing lest you have a collision with someone walking. And I'd guess that one out of ten times you looked there was someone that you would have collided with. You didn't just go barging out on to the pavement. Parents would teach their children this as well but until their children were old enough to do this on their own parents would watch them to prevent a similar incident. Once on the pavement/sidewalk children can have considerable more freedom since they can now be seen by other users.

This child did a free fall that looked quite horrendous. Consider though had she been tripped over by someone walking and instead had 250 pounds of flesh forcing her to the pavement?

As to the various feelings towards the cyclist. We know none of the circumstances surrounding this incident. We don't know how fast he was moving (the video includes only every second, third, or forth frame so no way to know speed without re-interlacing). We don't know what happened prior to this. Did he live two doors down and had just been beaten and threatened by his step-dad and was trying to get away to safety? Did he begin to apologize and come back to help the little girl but the girl's dad told him that he'd kill him?
The cyclist was not supposed to be there in the first place. He had no legal right to be riding on the sidewalk. Yes, the child had just stepped out,but the mother was already out on the sidewalk in clear view, a potential obstacle requiring caution. When one person steps out onto the sidewalk, a sensible person would use caution in case someone else steps out afterwards. As to speed, the passing car in the background provides a reference, it is moving at pretty much the same speed as the cyclist. The cyclist shouldn't have been there. If he wanted to ride as fast as the cars he should have been in the street, quite apart from his legal obligation to be there. No, there was no irresponsibility on the part of the parents, both of whom were close enough to the child to reach her with a couple of seconds after the collision. Victim blaming again.Had the cyclist been following the laws and the rules of common sense this accident would never have happened. The fact that he had time to hurl invective at the parents after he got up pretty much squashes the theory that he was fleeing someone
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Old 05-25-15, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
As to riding on sidewalks. Millions of people do it every day. In our suburbs I'd guess two out of three people riding are doing so, quite rationally, on the sidewalk not on the adjacent 50 mph road (and if they were prevented from doing so they would likely not ride at all). If it is so horrible then why are there not large numbers of pedestrian deaths from it? One or two in 10 years is not a problem (relative to over 50,000 pedestrians and 9,000 bicycle riders killed by cars over the same period). One child being injured (apparently mildly) by an errant bicycle rider does not make a case. Over 700 bicycle riders killed and 1,500 critically injured by cars every year does.

Further, the thousands of bicycle riders killed are overwhelming those who are riding in the roadway not on a sidewalk or riding from a sidewalk onto a roadway.

Until we have proper bikeways, riding (safely and at a reasonable speed for the conditions) on a sidewalk is much safer for bicycle riders and is not a danger to others.

You might want to read this article:https://www.bike.cornell.edu/pdfs/Sid...biking_FAQ.pdf
Riding on sidewalks creates a lot of dangers that do not exist when you ride on the road,it is not necessarily safer
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Old 05-25-15, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
The fact that he had time to hurl invective at the parents after he got up pretty much squashes the theory that he was fleeing someone
Was that on the video or are you going purely by the mother's comments on the video? Having watched hundreds of people trying to explain why they lied in legal depositions after they were caught lying tells me to take anything anyone says with a huge grain of salt. She may have been telling the truth or might not.
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Old 05-25-15, 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
As to speed, the passing car in the background provides a reference, it is moving at pretty much the same speed as the cyclist.
How fast is the car moving? How fast is the bicycle rider moving?
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Old 05-25-15, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
How fast is the car moving? How fast is the bicycle rider moving?
If the cyclist was moving as fast as the car, it was too fast to be riding on a sidewalk
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Old 05-25-15, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
Get over it. The cyclist wasn't even supposed to be there, and certainly not riding at that sort of speed. The parents are not in any way at fault. Really this blaming the victim stuff infuriates me
Letting the parents completely off the hook for letting their small child get ran over by a careless, inconsiderate, and illegal riding cyclist really bothers me.
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Old 05-25-15, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
The cyclist was not supposed to be there in the first place. He had no legal right to be riding on the sidewalk.
From a general legal standpoint in the UK you are correct. In much of the U.S. he can legally be there. However... 1) If it is common in a jurisdiction for LE to look the other way regarding people riding on the sidewalk then he would likely not be deemed to be violating the law as commonly applied, 2) If there are extenuating circumstances (such as he was in the road but jumped briefly on to the sidewalk to avoid a collision with a car) then his presence would not be illegal, and 3) his being on a bicycle and even his speed can be irrelevant if the actions of the child were such that other normal users (e.g., someone walking) could not have avoided a similar incident.
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Old 05-25-15, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
If the cyclist was moving as fast as the car, it was too fast to be riding on a sidewalk
Again, what speed is the car going? 3 mph? 6 mph? 12 mph?
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Old 05-25-15, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
What if the car is going 3 mph?
It is pretty clear that both the car and the cyclist were moving a lot faster than that. Not a very intelligent argument
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Old 05-25-15, 09:32 AM
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Originally Posted by alcjphil
No, there was no irresponsibility on the part of the parents, both of whom were close enough to the child to reach her with a couple of seconds after the collision.
If this mother had done what nearly every parent (in the UK with a similar wall and gate) does then her child would not have been hit. Until their children are old enough, parents hold their children's hand, go to the gate, look both ways (and note to the child what they are doing and why so that the children learn), and then proceed.
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Old 05-25-15, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by CrankyOne
If this mother had done what nearly every parent (in the UK with a similar wall and gate) does then her child would not have been hit. Until their children are old enough, parents hold their children's hand, go to the gate, look both ways (and note to the child what they are doing and why so that the children learn), and then proceed.
You have got to be kidding, If even one parent in ten does what you say I would be surprised
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