genec

Yup, the "vast majority" will likely not be an issue... but all it takes is one. Do you really think you can avoid that one odd one that is coming in a bit too fast? Your method may serve YOU just fine, but is this what you would recommend for others? Or is there perhaps a safer way?

And yes, even you yourself indicate that 100% safety isn't really possible.

As far as motorists seeing cyclists... lots of debate on that... frankly if an oncoming driver is not looking, (IE, distracted) it doesn't matter if you are a bicycle or a garbage truck... except for the potential damage inflicted upon you.

AlmostTrick

This is where it starts sounding like fear to me. “All it takes is one” can be said in any cycling situation.

Sigh. Relying on last moment bailing is not a technique, sorry if I made it sound like it was. It is a last resort, which hopefully (and likely) will never need to be counted on. In part because I’ve taken steps to make myself visible and relevant to motorists. But yes, I think I’d have a great chance of avoiding the “odd one”.

There have been countless video’s where pedestrians or officers on the side of the road have figuratively dodged a bullet at the last second. A cyclist that is ready to move forward between cars (and has already preplanned their path) can be out of the way at least as quick as a person on foot, if not quicker.


Sure there may be a safer way. It depends on the person, where they ride, and their fitness level. This is why I enjoy these topics.

Some people can barely ride 10 mph, others can top 20 for quite a while.

Some ride where blocks are short and motor speeds are closer to cycle speeds. Others, like me, ride where motor speeds are much higher than anyone can cycle, along with substantial distances between lights. There is no “getting and staying in front” of cars. If I pass motorists on the right at a light, they will soon be passing me again… with me incurring additional risk. I suppose I could stop on the right edge of the road, in my place in line, and resume from there, but that leaves me feeling unnoticed and at least as vulnerable. No thanks.

genec

No good way to respond to this... like Joeybike and his method of dodging cars at red lights... it may work forever for you. But it really is not a practice to promote... due largely to the fact that cyclists' skills vary all over the place.

I used to be quite adept at avoiding cars while riding anywhere on the road I want to be... until I was hit. But hey, that was me. Your mileage may vary.

Good luck.

kickstart

FRAP/S, middle of the lane, Left side of the lane, Idaho stop, crosswalk. They all have their benefits and risks, as individuals we can choose to do what we feel is best each time on an individual basis, or dogmatically stick to one and rely on the odds.

genec

One has to be flexible... there is no right or wrong for all situations... thus "dogmatic" just doesn't work... decades of touring and commuting taught me that long long ago.

By the same token decades of commuting and touring also taught me to never assume that because I am a brightly dressed cyclist with all sorts of flashy things on my bike, that I will wonderfully become "relevant" and be seen by motorists... just ain't true. Folks have all sorts of odd mental filters that can block out all sorts of things on the road... and distractions that might keep them from even looking (and the range of potential distractions is just freaking huge), not to mention some strange mental notions that may get in the way of treating a fellow human as human.

Keep the head on a swivel and look for ways to avoid the big metal things on the road... and have good luck... 'cause none of us is there 100% of the time.

JoeyBike

Yep. Every intersection is different. And every individual intersection is variable depending on the numbers and types of motor vehicles around the intersection at any given time. You can't just write up a menu or flow chart and follow it. Once you memorize the traffic flow near each intersection then you have ONE tool to use, but there is still a lot of thinking to do, observations to make, and actions to tweak accordingly.

Seattle Forrest

Fixed.

LoriRose

Here is Montreal the norm is to not position yourself behind vehicles waiting at a light but to make your way to the front, space permitting, and position yourself ahead of the first car (not in front, but close). There are even designated painted boxes on the pavement at some intersections that do position cyclists in front of traffic. If the first rule for being safe on a bike in traffic is visibility then this makes perfect sense to me - the first car can see me and give me space and the rest of the vehicles will follow suit. I can't remember where I read it, but it was suggested that as a cyclist you stop ahead of the stop line, but before the crosswalk. This is what I do. If there is enough room for vehicles to safely pass me then at the green light I go, but where it's tight, i.e., there is only one lane and there are cars parked along the side, I will still pull up to the front but once the light turns green I let them pass before I go. All that being said, Montreal is a very bike-friendly city and I would say that the majority of motorists respect cyclists and give them the space they require. So I'm not sure if this practice might piss off some motorists elsewhere.

Also, just to add a little anecdote to the thread... I was riding home from work the other night when a cabbie flew by me REALLY FRIGGIN CLOSE. The closest so far since taking up cycling a few months ago. I yelped something out, and then realized he was veering to the right, essentially cutting me off, and about to rear-end a parked car. He saved himself in time but holy **** close call. He was obviously distracted by something!!! I couldn't stop swearing for the next few kms.

GovernorSilver

So far I've been only close-passed like that once, but I haven't been commuting by bike to work very long. Seems like more and more cyclists are carrying video cameras on their bikes or helmets for stuff like that. Thinking of getting one myself.

kickstart

Friday, on the way home from work, my wife was rear ended just after stopping for a stoplight (in her car) at an intersection of two major 4 lane arterials.

At some point it comes down to chance because its impossible to guard against all possibilities. On the same token, if one takes reasonable precautions they can narrow those chances down significantly.
As chance would have it, I also use the same route for my commute, where she got hit is the same location where I use the sidewalk for about a 1.3 miles on the way home due to conditions, rather than riding VC as I do in the same location in the am.
I just missed seeing her at the scene as she had just left in the police cruiser getting a ride home, and passed me without my knowing it. If I had gotten off work earlier, and I was a dogmatic VC'er, it could have been me.

Sometimes life gives us reminders to stay on our game, which is a good thing if we remember the odds are still in our favor, and there's no need to get paranoid.

JoeyBike

Perfect! You weight the risks, explore the possible options, and THINK about how things affect you out there on your bike. You are not VC tattooed, proud, stubborn, or stupid. You just want to get to work and back in one piece by any reasonable means available to you. I for one applaud that, and I do the same.

This cycling thing is not a freaking video game. You only get one life to lose. Cycling to work, or cycling on almost any roadway is not a time to relax and daydream, hold your ground, flex your pride, or act entitled. It is a time to use your brain to stay in "the game".

Sorry about your wife's experience. Happy to hear she wasn't on a bicycle tho.

Cheers.

GovernorSilver

Condolences about your wife.

I also ride on the sidewalk if the law allows it and conditions make it appear the safer option. Where I got close-passed, the sidewalk was still crowded full of tourists.

AlmostTrick

Sure, weigh the risks, explore the options, and choose accordingly.

I doubt that riding with a VC tattoo is statistically any more risky than sidewalk cycling. Likely the opposite is true. (Even though both can be done safely)

kickstart

Thanks, she's fine other than a little sore in one arm.

We can only do our best with what we have to work with, and hope for the best.

kickstart

I disagree.
Even if true, which I seriously doubt, statistics are only generalizations that don't take into account actual conditions present in any given circumstance. Ignoring actual conditions to make choices by default can't possibly mitigate ones exposure to risk, as one is trading pragmatic judgment for intransigent faith.
If one lacks the skill and judgment to ride on a sidewalk safely, then they most certainly lack the skill and judgment to ride in the traffic lane of an unusually challenging section of road.

JoeyBike

Wow...all of this free thinking must make certain linear "goosesteppers" around here uneasy.

AlmostTrick

Wait a minute… there’s a VC tattoo? I’ll consider a shirt or jacket, (even socks... do they have socks?) but NO tattoos!

Agreed. That's why several posts back I wrote:

AND, posted that I felt it’s possible to safely ride VC style, or ride the sidewalk. I can’t help it if I find the former to be far more convenient, and yes, even safer the vast majority of the time.

I understand the whole VC idea rubs some the wrong way. (even though they may often follow it in practice) Oh well, I guess I'm not all that different, since sidewalk riding and such rubs me the wrong way.

Agreed. The most competent cyclists would be able to do either, (or both) all day long, without issue. Pedal On!

genec

I don't think it is as much the idea as it is the dogma of some and the attitude presented by the "father of VC." Let's face it, VC works quite well in some places... but not well in others... hence the "be flexible" aspect that you and some here acknowledge.

kickstart

If one is cycling in a traffic lane they should behave as a vehicle, therefore it's a legitimate technique. The "rub" is when its presented as the universally "correct" way to ride rather than being one of several options, or taking it a step further by declaring certain options to be incorrect.

68venable

I often see other motorists slowing, speeding, and swerving apparently for no reason. I assume they are on their phones. As I pass them I glance over and see that no phone is visible. NOW I know what they are really doing. The women must be distracted by other electronic devices and the men are car jacking. My ride home today should be humorous.

genec

Or by declaring some cyclists "incompetent" because they choose to ride in a manner that doesn't conform to their VC dogma...

kickstart

......And don't forget the need for the "fat", "lazy" masses to become "reasonably fit" enough to maintain 18 mph......

mconlonx

If they are not riding as I ride, they are very obviously doing it wrong and providing a bad example for the rest of us/me.

JoeyBike

I am glad you brought this up.

First, I am NOT a VC guy. I do whatever it takes to get where I am going with my hide intact, even the occasional sidewalk, contraflow, door zone - with DUE caution.

I also am not a fan of "Share The Road". I want to rip down every STR sign I see BECAUSE motorists do not interpret this the same as a cyclist. To a motorist, "share the road" means "Move the Hell over when a car approaches and share the LANE." I know this for a fact because now and then some motorist gets "stuck" behind me for a full block politely tapping the horn, and when they finally overtake they yell at me "Share the road A.Hole!".

Now that the groundwork^^^^ is laid I will get to the point here.

There are sections of road where I live that are one lane, parallel parked cars to my right, and a median to my left. Most have sharrows on them. Speed limit is 35mph. I ride VC on these stretches of road - dead center in the lane, maybe even far left, and try to keep my speed as close to 25MPH as I can to keep up or limit my encounters with moving motor vehicles. I rarely have a problem as 20+ for a motorist in a 35 zone does not seem to put them out much. Signs may even read "Cyclist May Use Full Lane" which for me is better nomenclature than "Share the Road".

The problem arises when granny on her Townie takes the lane an 7 MPH. I would NEVER ride VC at 7 miles an hour. This is just RUDE. And I don't even own a car and I see this behavior as hostile and unsafe. Granny is not an INCOMPETENT cyclist, Granny is a dumb person. By law she is entitled to the entire lane but by common sense she is a danger to herself and other road users. The same would be true of me if I rode 25 MPH in the center of the right lane on a 70 mph 4-lane highway. It may be perfectly legal somewhere...but not very smart and certainly not polite.

howsteepisit

+1 to Joeys thoughts on share the road. My experience is the same, most/many motorists seem to think that share means get out of there way, kind of like how kindergarteners share toys, first I use it then you do, not both at the same time.